Poll: The Forgiveness Thread

[DHK]

Acts 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

These are the words of Stephen while he was dying. Though the word "forgive" is not used, the act of forgiving is there. The phrase: "lay not this sin," means "forgive." Stephen was praying to the Lord to forgive them without condition. The statement is a parallel to that which is said by Christ on the cross, except that now Christ is risen, and it is Stephen himself that can intercede as a priest before God for these men. Forgive them. Lay not this sin to their charge.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Stephen was praying to the Lord to forgive them without condition. The statement is a parallel to that which is said by Christ on the cross, except that now Christ is risen, and it is Stephen himself that can intercede as a priest before God for these men.

But as you can tell from reading the passage, Stephen was making a request to God; he was not forgiving them. You mention this as being parallel to Christ on the cross, and you are correct. In neither case is forgivenness being transacted, but rather a prayer is being made. God may perhaps forgive them based on their repentance, but in no scriptural case has it been shown that God forgives without confession and repentance.

 

[LadyEagle]

Well, what about the prodigal son, I mentioned that earlier, and also mentioned Stephen in the other thread and DHK has mentioned it again. Sue has mentioned the woman at the well.

Can we agree that an unforgiving spirit is sin? There have been some great posts here.

So, PL, can you show us a passage in Scripture that we are not to forgive others until they repent?

Some here I fear have never been hurt very much, or don't understand forgiveness, if they say it is easy.

You have no idea what hurts some of the people posting here have suffered in their personal lives, so that is a ridiculous statement.

No one has said forgiveness is easy, but it has been said that forgiving some one who has repented is easier than forgiving someone who has not - that forgiveness must come from the help of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Well, what about the prodigal son, I mentioned that earlier,

I addressed that in post #27.

and also mentioned Stephen in the other thread and DHK has mentioned it again.

I addressed that in post #42.

Sue has mentioned the woman at the well.

I addressed that in post #34, pointing that it isn’t the woman at the well she was talking about, but I showed why that case doesn’t make the point anyway.

Can we agree that an unforgiving spirit is sin?

I have contended for that all the way back to the last thread.

So, PL, can you show us a passage in Scripture that we are not to forgive others until they repent?

I did that in post #13 by citing two relevant passages:

Eph 4:32 ... Forgive just as God forgave you.
1 John 1:9 ... If we confess our sins ... he will forgive us our sins.

Here, we see that God’s forgiveness is conditioned on confession, and our forgiveness is to be like his.

You have no idea what hurts some of the people posting here have suffered in their personal lives, so that is a ridiculous statement.

I don’t think its ridiculous at all. I don’t know what anyone here as gone through except for me, but as I said, I fear that some have not. I may be wrong, but I am not sure how you would know that either.

No one has said forgiveness is easy, but it has been said that forgiving some one who has repented is easier than forgiving someone who has not - that forgiveness must come from the help of the Holy Spirit.

Actually, Sue said: It is easy to forgive one who is repentant (post #33).

 

[LadyEagle]

Ephesians 4:[32] And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Col. 3:[12] Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
[13] Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.


Matthew 6:6] But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
[7] But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
[8] Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
[9] After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
[10] Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
[11] Give us this day our daily bread.
[12] And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
[13] And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
[14] For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
[15] But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Mark 11:[25] And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
[26] But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

 

[LadyEagle]

First, it is a parable, and doctrine should not be established from a parable.
Second, there was no more money so the father knew he wasn't coming home for that.
Third, the Bible explicitly says that the son repented and went home (vv. 18-19). The very act of getting up and going home was an act of repentance, so the father's embrace and acceptance was after the repentance.
Fourth, the Bible never says that the father forgave him (though I think he did).

Do you have anything else?

Have you read Jay Adams book on this? Or anything else?

No more money? Where did the best robe, ring, shoes, and fatted calf and party goods come from? Yes, the Bible says the son repented and went home, but the father didn't know that until later. As I stated, the son could have been coming back home to get more money, the father did not know from a distance that the son repented, so your argument on that one gets a zero.

No, I haven't read Jay Adams and believe he is off base from the link you provided. We can discuss that link if you care to start a thread.

 

[DHK]

But as you can tell from reading the passage, Stephen was making a request to God; he was not forgiving them. You mention this as being parallel to Christ on the cross, and you are correct. In neither case is forgivenness being transacted, but rather a prayer is being made. God may perhaps forgive them based on their repentance, but in no scriptural case has it been shown that God forgives without confession and repentance.

All forgiveness ultimately comes from God. Is there anything in the passage that indicates that God denied him his request?

During his Christian life Paul had this testimony:

Acts 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men.

It is possible that Paul offended people every day, some of whom he was not able (because of persecution) to go back and ask forgiveness. But at the end of the day his consceince was clear--always. Why? Because God forgives sins (1John 1:9). He had a clear conscience not only before God, but also before men, whether or not he was able to confront the person that had wronged him.

Those at Berea were more nobe than those at Thessalonica.
There were many at Thessalonica that did him wrong, forced him out of their city, etc. Was he able to forgive them without meeting each and every one of them that badly treated him. Paul's conscience was void of offence toward those men. Therefore he must have been able to forgive them without meeting his accusers.

 

[Pastor Larry]

No more money? Where did the best robe, ring, shoes, and fatted calf and party goods come from?

From the father's money. The son had already taken his share and spent it. There was no more for him.

Yes, the Bible says the son repented and went home, but the father didn't know that until later. As I stated, the son could have been coming back home to get more money, the father did not know from a distance that the son repented, so your argument on that one gets a zero.

I think my argument is solidly conclusive. There is no mention of forgiveness, but there is a clear mention of repentance before the father's greeting, and it may well be that the Father knew he was coming or had gotten word somehow. There is simply not enough to override the biblical teaching that forgiveness requires confession (1 John 1:9). And it's still a parable not meant to address every single little issue.

No, I haven't read Jay Adams and believe he is off base from the link you provided.

You should get the book and read it.

Will you please reconcile Eph 4:32 and 1 John 1:9 for us in your view.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Is there anything in the passage that indicates that God denied him his request?

Is there anything that says God granted it? And if he did, what is the need of saving faith if someone else can ask for your forgiveness and God grant it?

Because God forgives sins (1John 1:9).

Remember what this verse says: "If we confess."

Therefore he must have been able to forgive them without meeting his accusers.

That's as big a reach as has been made in this whole discussion.

I think, the blamelessness in Acts 24:16 has to do with preaching the gospel and thereby being blameless before them. In any case, it is an extreme stretch to try to say that Paul forgave people for something they had never confessed.

 

[swaimj]

Here is a question to ponder.

True story. Several weeks ago, here in Philadelphia, a young man was went into a Dunkin Donuts and began robbing the cashier. While in the process of this robbery, a Philly policeman walked in, not knowing what was occurring. When the robber saw the uniformed officer, he thought he was about to be confronted, so he shot the officer and killed him.

I forgive this man for shooting the officer. What is the benefit of my forgiveness to this man? What is the benefit of my forgiveness to the family of the officer who was killed?

 

[donnA]

When we forgive we are the only one to benefit, not the other person, usually they don't care if you forgive them, or don't even know theres anything to forgive. If we're keeping unforgiveness in our hearts we are the one to suffer for it, not the other person. We can not comapre ourselves to God,w e are not God, the bible tells us to forgive, 70x7, isn't it, God gave us instructions like that, but forgot to tell us we only have to forgive if they ask us too? Thats not anywhere near truth, it's an ignorance of truth.

 

[canadyjd]

Does God forgive people who do not confess their sin? Doesn't the unquestioned answer have to be "No" (at least from a biblical standpoint)? Can anyone point to anywhere that forgiveness is granted by God apart from confession?

Matt 9:2 "And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, 'Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.'"

Not only does Jesus forgive the sins of someone who doesn't ask for it, He forgives his sins based on the faith expressed by his friends who brought him to Jesus.

Perhaps doctrine cannot be made from one verse. Nevertheless, it is hard to ignore what this verse plainly says.

peace to youraying:

 

[LadyEagle]

Will you please reconcile Eph 4:32 and 1 John 1:9 for us in your view.

Eph 4:32 is about our relationship to each other (horizontal relationship). I John 1:9 is about our relationship to God (vertical relationship).

So, you acknowledge that unforgiveness is sin. But you say the only way we can forgive another person is if they repent. So the logical conclusion is that if there is never the opportunity for them to repent to us or for us to say, "I forgive you, I forgive you, thank you for your repentence, go in peace," then we are to walk around with the sin of unforgiveness for another in our hearts until the opportunity of their repentence happens? What if they croaked? There is no opportunity for them to repent and no opportunity to reconcile. What if they never repent? We are to hold onto the unforgiveness in our hearts anyway? Is that what you are saying? From the other thread, you said you believe forgiveness means reconciliation (correct me if I misunderstood). So would you go so far as to say forgiveness includes reconciliation and restoration? (it's a trap :laugh: )

 

[swaimj]

Allow me to repeat my story and then ask a couple of other questions:

True story. Several weeks ago, here in Philadelphia, a young man was went into a Dunkin Donuts and began robbing the cashier. While in the process of this robbery, a Philly policeman walked in, not knowing what was occurring. When the robber saw the uniformed officer, he thought he was about to be confronted, so he shot the officer and killed him.

Two questions:
Does God forgive this man for this murder?
What would you think if the governor of PA said, "I am a Christian and I think we need to practice forgiveness. Sir, I forgive you for the killing of this officer and I pardon you from all charges related to this crime. You are now free".

 

[Bob Alkire]

Allow me to repeat my story and then ask a couple of other questions:

Two questions:
Does God forgive this man for this murder?

Yes, if he confesses his sin to God as in 1 John 1:9. He would still have to face the law and the price he would have to pay for the killing and breaking the law of the state.

What would you think if the governor of PA said, "I am a Christian and I think we need to practice forgiveness. Sir, I forgive you for the killing of this officer and I pardon you from all charges related to this crime. You are now free".

There would be a lot of people marching in the streets in the city and state. I would say lets get him out of office and get someone who will go by the law of our city, state and country.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I forgive this man for shooting the officer. What is the benefit of my forgiveness to this man? What is the benefit of my forgiveness to the family of the officer who was killed?

Why would you forgive him? He didn't sin against you.

 

[Pastor Larry]

We can not comapre ourselves to God,w e are not God, the bible tells us to forgive, 70x7, isn't it, God gave us instructions like that, but forgot to tell us we only have to forgive if they ask us too? Thats not anywhere near truth, it's an ignorance of truth.

But he said our forgiveness is to be like his, and he requires confession before forgiveness. So on what basis do you say that our forgiveness doesn't have to be like his?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Matt 9:2 "And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, 'Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.'"

Not only does Jesus forgive the sins of someone who doesn't ask for it, He forgives his sins based on the faith expressed by his friends who brought him to Jesus.

Perhaps doctrine cannot be made from one verse. Nevertheless, it is hard to ignore what this verse plainly says.

So where does this verse plainly say that the man did not repent? Given the biblical teaching that faith and repentance are necessary for salvation, why would you think that God changed his mind on this one? Aren't you reading into the text something it does not say? Of course you are. The Bible doesn't say that he didn't repent. We don't know why his friends brought him. What if they had had a conversation where the man asked? Furthermore, as we all know, Scripture does not record the exact words or all the words of every conversation. The man had faith ... which in biblical terminology is used interchangeably with repentance. So it seems that this one actually fits my view, not yours.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Eph 4:32 is about our relationship to each other (horizontal relationship). I John 1:9 is about our relationship to God (vertical relationship).

Yes, and Eph 4:32 says that our horizontal forgiveness is to be modeled on the vertical forgivness of 1 JOhn 1:9. I don't think you can get around that, which is why I changed my position. The Scripture was simply too clear on this.

So, you acknowledge that unforgiveness is sin. But you say the only way we can forgive another person is if they repent. So the logical conclusion is that if there is never the opportunity for them to repent to us or for us to say, "I forgive you, I forgive you, thank you for your repentence, go in peace," then we are to walk around with the sin of unforgiveness for another in our hearts until the opportunity of their repentence happens?

No, again, please remember what I said. The attitude of forgiveness is different than forgiveness. And if someone doesn't ask for forgiveness, I am not sinning by not granting it.

We are to hold onto the unforgiveness in our hearts anyway? Is that what you are saying?

No, remember when you started this thread, I pointed out several things in the other thread that you had missed. One of them was that we are not permitted to hold a spirit of unforgiveness in our hearts. Please, read what I am actually saying.

From the other thread, you said you believe forgiveness means reconciliation (correct me if I misunderstood). So would you go so far as to say forgiveness includes reconciliation and restoration?

There's no trap there. I would say Yes, based on the teaching of Scripture that our forgiveness is to be like God's forgiveness. When God forgives, he does not refuse to reconcile and restore. So on what basis can we?

Again, please deal with Scripture in your answer. Sob stories don't make for good theology. The call of the gospel is radical, and we must base our lives on that.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Does God forgive this man for this murder?

According to some here, if you ask God to forgive him God will. And they will cite Jesus on teh cross and STephen at his death as proof of it. I disagree. God will forgive him if he repents. And he will be restored and reconciled to God. That won't remove the civil claims of government.

What would you think if the governor of PA said, "I am a Christian and I think we need to practice forgiveness. Sir, I forgive you for the killing of this officer and I pardon you from all charges related to this crime. You are now free".

I would think the guy needs some time in the Scriptures to understand what forgiveness is .