Poll: The Forgiveness Thread

[Pastor Larry]

I still think we are getting caught up in all kinds of things that do not have to do with the biblical issue of what forgiveness is and what it means.

Perhaps we need to go back and ask for definitions of forgiveness so we can understand whether or not people have an actual grasp on the theology here, or if we are simply dealing with emotional ideas.

 

[here now]

Allow me to repeat my story and then ask a couple of other questions:

Two questions:
Does God forgive this man for this murder?
What would you think if the governor of PA said, "I am a Christian and I think we need to practice forgiveness. Sir, I forgive you for the killing of this officer and I pardon you from all charges related to this crime. You are now free".

The governor is not the victim so it is not for him to forgive. In the Bible God tells us to forgive those who tresspass against us.....so that is what we are commanded to do. It is a victim to offender forgiveness.

 

[here now]

But he said our forgiveness is to be like his, and he requires confession before forgiveness. So on what basis do you say that our forgiveness doesn't have to be like his?

Pastor Larry,
Where does it say that the offenders actions are to be like ours and that they are to ask for forgiveness? It does not say that.
God says that our forgiveness is to be like His, then that means to forgive, completely.....that is statement to the victim not a statement as to what the offender must do.

 

[just-want-peace]

I still think we are getting caught up in all kinds of things that do not have to do with the biblical issue of what forgiveness is and what it means.

Perhaps we need to go back and ask for definitions of forgiveness so we can understand whether or not people have an actual grasp on the theology here, or if we are simply dealing with emotional ideas.

Which is exactly what I did in post #39.

Mat 18:21-22 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, until seven times: but, until seventy times seven.

If, as PL says, it's an attitude, how do you renew an attitude - as opposed to having to renew an action? I mean, once you have an "attitude" of forgiveness, what removes that attitude so that you need to do it again? (seventy times seven??) If, however, I have forgiven a brother (an act by me, for an offense against me), and he offends me again, then there is a renewed need for another act of forgiveness by me for a new act of offense against me.

I don't equate my forgiving of another with that of Christ simply because I do not have the power, knowledge or love that Christ does; my forgiving of another is on a human to human basis for imagined or actual offenses against me or those I love - nothing spiritual other than it's what Christ has done for me in the mega range, so I feel obliged to do to another in the uni range.

I'm through with this thread, and I plan to continue to forgive as I understand it (post 39) until His return, my departure, or He shows me something different
.:godisgood:

 

[LadyEagle]

There's no trap there. I would say Yes, based on the teaching of Scripture that our forgiveness is to be like God's forgiveness. When God forgives, he does not refuse to reconcile and restore. So on what basis can we?

Some relationships cannot be reconciled and some things cannot be restored. Forgiveness of another person who has wronged us in some way requires selflessness on our part, the desire to please God rather than the desire for revenge or to even the score.

Based on your viewpoint and from your answers, I would have to say you have been very fortunate if you have lived your life having only to forgive those who have repented and have been able to reconcile their relationship with you or restore to you what thay have taken away.

Plenty of examples and Scripture have been posted as to why we are to forgive others. Apparently you don't read them the same way or apply them to your life the same way. But your path is not my path and none of us have all of the answers.

Perhaps I have been wrong all of my life believing forgiveness for the undeserving is worth striving for in my Christian walk, that it is pleasing to the Lord and that He uses my forgiveness of others to develop character in me that is more like Christ than the world's "all for me" mentality. But you know what? If it has been wrong of me to forgive and if I don't understand all the nuts and bolts of it, then the Lord will have to show me that I need to develop an "eye for an eye" mentality, which is what I hear you saying, PL.

Most of us would have a pretty long list of people who "owe" us, who need to repent for wrongs they have done against us, and restore what they have taken from us. But like I said, sometimes reconciliation is impossible and restoration is impossible, too.

God is my bookkeeper and I have peace with that because I have made a conscious choice of my will (with His help) to practice forgiveness. I'm thankful He has worked in me to give me a forgiving heart. I've seen too many cases where a spirit of unforgiveness has eventually led to them becoming a cariacture of what they might have been had they chosen to let "it" go and leave it in the Lord's hands.

 

[canadyjd]

So where does this verse plainly say that the man did not repent?

The passage doesn't say anything about the man asking for forgiveness. That is the point.

Aren't you reading into the text something it does not say? Of course you are. The Bible doesn't say that he didn't repent.

You are reading into the text that the man asked for forgiveness. The text doesn't say that. The context doesn't demand it or even suggest it. You are arguing from silence and that is a losing argument.

We don't know why his friends brought him.

Of course we know why they brought him. Jesus had been healing people, and they wanted their friend to be healed. They believed Jesus could heal him of being a paralytic. They didn't come to get forgiveness, they came to get the man healed.

The man had faith ... which in biblical terminology is used interchangeably with repentance.

The passage says the men who brought the paralytic had faith. It doesn't say the paralytic had faith.The paralytic is clearly distinguished from the others. The account from Mark 2 is even clearer, though the Matt account is clear.

The "faith" referred to is faith that Jesus could heal the paralytic, not that Jesus could forgive sins. The passage doesn't say the man or those that brought him to Jesus asked for forgiveness. You are reading that into the passage because it contradicts your views. In fact, from the passage in Mark, it is clear they couldn't get close enough to Jesus to ask for anything. They lowered him through the roof, hoping Jesus would heal him.

I agree with much of what you post Pastor Larry, but you are wrong on this one.

I respectfully suggest you take your own advice and accept what scripture says, without reading into the passage something that isn't there.

peace to youraying:

 

[LadyEagle]

This seemed an appropriate thread to post this. It came in an email:

Carl was a quiet man. He didn't talk much.
He would always greet you with a big smile
and a firm handshake. Even after living in
our neighborhood for over 50 years, no one could
really say they knew him very well.
Before his retirement, he took the bus to work each morning. The lone sight of him walking down the street often worried us.

He had a slight limp from a bullet wound received in WWII.

Watching him, we worried that although he had survived WWII, he may not make it through our changing uptown neighborhood with its ever-increasing random violence, gangs, and drug activity.

When he saw the flyer at our local church asking for volunteers for caring for the gardens behind the minister's residence, he responded in his characteristically unassuming manner. Without fanfare, he just signed up.

He was well into his 87th year when the very thing we had always feared finally happened.

He was just finishing his watering for the day when three gang members approached him. Ignoring their attempt to intimidate him, he simply asked, 'Would you like a drink from the hose?'

The tallest and toughest-looking of the three said, 'Yeah, sure,' with a malevolent little smile.
As Carl offered the hose to him, the other two grabbed Carl's arm, throwing him down. As the hose snaked crazily over the ground, dousing everything in its way, Carl's assailants stole his retirement watch and his wallet, and then fled.

Carl tried to get himself up, but he had been thrown down on his bad leg. He lay there trying to gather himself as the minister came running to help him.

Although the minister had witnessed the attack from his window, he couldn't get there fast enough to stop it.

'Carl, are you okay? Are you hurt?' the minister kept asking as he helped Carl to his feet.

Carl just passed a hand over his brow and sighed, shaking his head. 'Just some punk kids. I hope they'll wise-up someday.'

His wet clothes clung to his slight frame as he bent to pick up the hose. He adjusted the nozzle again and started to water.

and a little concerned, the minister asked, 'Carl, what are you doing?'

'I've got to finish my watering. It's been very dry lately,' came the calm reply.

Satisfying himself that Carl really was all right, the minister could only marvel. Carl was a man from a different time and place.

A few weeks later the three returned. Just as before their threat was unchallenged. Carl again offered them a drink from his hose.

This time they didn't rob him. They wrenched the hose from his hand and drenched him head to foot in the icy water.

When they had finished their humiliation of him, they sauntered off down the street, throwing catcalls and curses, falling over one another laughing at the hilarity of what they had just done.

Carl just watched them. Then he turned toward the warmth giving sun, picked up his hose, and went on with his watering.

The summer was quickly fading into fall, Carl was doing some tilling when he was startled by the sudden approach of someone behind him. He stumbled and fell into some evergreen branches.

As he struggled to regain his footing, he turned to see the tall leader of his summer tormentors reaching down for him. He braced himself for the expected attack.

'Don't worry old man, I'm not gonna hurt you this time.'

The young man spoke softly, still offering the tattooed and scarred hand to Carl. As he helped Carl get up, the man pulled a crumpled bag from his pocket and handed it to Carl.

'What's this?' Carl asked.

'It's your stuff,' the man explained. 'It's your stuff back. Even the money in your wallet.'

'I don't understand,' Carl said. 'Why would you help me now?' The man shifted his feet, seeming embarrassed and ill at ease. 'I learned something from you,' he said. 'I ran with that gang and hurt people like you . We picked you because you were old and we knew we could do it. But every time we came and did something to you, instead of yelling and fighting back, you tried to give us a drink. You didn't hate us for hating you. You kept showing love against our hate.'

He stopped for a moment. 'I couldn't sleep after we stole your stuff, so here it is back.'

He paused for another awkward moment, not knowing what more there was to say. 'That bag's my way of saying thanks for straightening me out, I guess.' And with that, he walked off down the street.

Carl looked down at the sack in his hands and gingerly opened it. He took out his retirement watch and put it back on his wrist. Opening his wallet, he checked for his wedding photo. He gazed for a moment at the young bride who still smiled back at him from all those years ago.

He died one cold day after Christmas that winter.

Many people attended his funeral in spite of the weather. In particular the minister noticed a tall young man that he didn't know sitting quietly in a distant corner of the church.

The minister spoke of Carl's garden as a lesson in life. In a voice made thick with unshed tears, he said, 'Do your best and make your garden as beautiful as you can. We will never forget Carl and his garden.'

The following spring another flyer went up. It read: 'Person needed to care for Carl's garden..'

The flyer went unnoticed by the busy parishioners until one day when a knock was heard at the minister's office door.

Opening the door, the minister saw a pair of scarred and tattooed hands holding the flyer. 'I believe this is my job, if you'll have me,' the young man said.

The minister recognized him as the same young man who had returned the stolen watch and wallet to Carl.

He knew that Carl's kindness had turned this man's life around. As the minister handed him the keys to the garden shed, he said, 'Yes, go take care of Carl's garden and honour him.'

The man went to work and, over the next several years, he tended the flowers and vegetables just as Carl had done..

In that time, he went to college, got married, and became a prominent member of the community. But he never forgot his promise to Carl's memory and kept the garden as beautiful as he thought Carl would have kept it.

One day he approached the new minister and told him that he couldn't care for the garden any longer. He explained with a shy and happy smile, 'My wife just had a baby boy last night, and she's bringing him home on Saturday.'

'Well, congratulations!' said the minister, as he was handed the garden shed keys. 'That's wonderful! What's the baby's name?'

'Carl,' he replied..

That's the whole gospel message simply stated.

 

[just-want-peace]

Good thing ole Carl didn't wait for the young punk to ASK for forgiveness ain't it??

 

[Pastor Larry]

The passage doesn't say anything about the man asking for forgiveness. That is the point.

I think the point is that the text doesn’t tell us everything that happened.

You are reading into the text that the man asked for forgiveness. The text doesn't say that. The context doesn't demand it or even suggest it. You are arguing from silence and that is a losing argument.

So you are saying that Christ saves people who do not repent and believe? Doesn’t that contradict everything the Bible teaches about salvation?

Of course we know why they brought him.

Do we? You talk about arguing from silence and the losing nature of it, and then do exactly that. Please tell us what conversations this man had with his friends before going. Please tell us exactly the conversation between Jesus and the man. You can’t do it.

The passage says the men who brought the paralytic had faith. It doesn't say the paralytic had faith.The paralytic is clearly distinguished from the others. The account from Mark 2 is even clearer, though the Matt account is clear.

And where does it say this? My Bible says “their faith.” It doesn’t say that the paralytic was not included there. Again, you are arguing from silence, and you are arguing against the unanimous testimony of the NT that Christ saves only those who believe and repent.

I agree with much of what you post Pastor Larry, but you are wrong on this one.

Perhaps, but it will take a better argument than what you have made here to convince me.

I respectfully suggest you take your own advice and accept what scripture says, without reading into the passage something that isn't there.

I think I have done that, and have pointed out where the other side has not.

If you think this man didn’t have faith, then you have to answer why Jesus saves people who do not have faith and repentance when the unanimous testimony of Scripture is that Jesus saves only those who repent and believe.

 

[Pastor Larry]

This will be my last here unless there are specific questions.

If, as PL says, it's an attitude, how do you renew an attitude - as opposed to having to renew an action?

I didn’t say it’s an attitude. I said there is an attitude of forgiveness that we all must have, and an act of forgiveness that reconciles the relationship. The act of forgiveness apart from confession minimizes sin.

As far as renewing an attitude, anyone who has ever been hurt knows that the old things still come up, and there must be a constant renewal of the mind to live in forgiveness.

I don't equate my forgiving of another with that of Christ

I do because it is what I am commanded to do. We make a grave moralistic mistake when we separate our forgiveness from the forgiveness of Christ, IMO.

Some relationships cannot be reconciled and some things cannot be restored.

I am not sure this is true. It is true that things will not be the same, but I am not sure why it could not be reconciled, apart from human pride and unwillingness to live God’s way. Perhaps here we are talking about different things.

Forgiveness of another person who has wronged us in some way requires selflessness on our part, the desire to please God rather than the desire for revenge or to even the score.

Exactly.

Based on your viewpoint and from your answers, I would have to say you have been very fortunate if you have lived your life having only to forgive those who have repented and have been able to reconcile their relationship with you or restore to you what thay have taken away.

I am not sure you could pick this up from my viewpoint and answers. I to this day have to live with a forgiving spirit towards those who have hurt me and have never apologized or confessed it. Two years ago I had the privilege of restoring a relationship that had been broken for three years. So I have been on both sides more often than I like to acknowledge. Remember what I have said from the beginning – we must have a forgiving attitude regardless of whether the person confesses or not.

Plenty of examples and Scripture have been posted as to why we are to forgive others.

Remember, I have never disputed that we are to forgive others.

Perhaps I have been wrong all of my life believing forgiveness for the undeserving is worth striving for in my Christian walk, that it is pleasing to the Lord and that He uses my forgiveness of others to develop character in me that is more like Christ than the world's "all for me" mentality.

If you have been wrong, then I have as well. But what you say here is not even remotely related to my point.

… an "eye for an eye" mentality, which is what I hear you saying, PL.

That is most certainly not what you hear me saying. I have never said anything about eye for eye. Come on … This whole thread started because my original post was misread, and I corrected it seven pages ago, and yet you are still misreading what I have said. It is difficult to carry on a conversation when people repeatedly refuse to read what is being said.

The whole point of forgiveness is that it isn’t eye-for-eye. It is reconciliation for the undeserving. In forgiveness, I have a claim but I refuse to exercise it. I release that claim and absorb the cost of sin into myself.

Forgiveness is a choice to treat the offender like they had never offended you. It is a commitment to refuse to bring it up to you, me, or anyone else ever again.

Thanks for the conversation all ... May we all be committed to forgiving others, just as God in Christ forgave us.

 

[donnA]

I think the point is that the text doesn’t tell us everything that happened.

God told us in scripture, everything we need to know. If there were other instructions we needed then He would have told us. All we can go by is what it actually says.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

PL: We are not talking about salvation. We are talking about forgiving one another like the Lord told us to do in the Lord's Prayer.

He did not tell us to wait until someone asked for forgiveness. He simply stated..."forgive them their trespasses".

Also He tells us that, before we partake of the Lord's Supper, if we have ought against our brother, we are to go to him and make it right. Here again, He says nothing about anyone asking for forgiveness. He simply stated "make it right" (forgive).

 

[Pastor Larry]

I know I said I was done. Please forgive me for continuing ...

PL: We are not talking about salvation. We are talking about forgiving one another like the Lord told us to do in the Lord's Prayer.

The paralytic man was brought up and that appears to be a salvation issue. Furthermore, our salvation in Christ is the basis for our forgiveness of others (Eph 4; Col 3).

He did not tell us to wait until someone asked for forgiveness. He simply stated..."forgive them their trespasses".

But if I am correct, "forgive them" means "when they confess." You say that he does not tell us to wait until they ask, but if I am correct, the command to forgive assumes confession to begin with. You are trying to win the issue without addressing the definitions.

Also He tells us that, before we partake of the Lord's Supper, if we have ought against our brother, we are to go to him and make it right. Here again, He says nothing about anyone asking for forgiveness. He simply stated "make it right" (forgive).

So why would you assume that confession is not a part of this? Again, notice how much you are reading into the text. Perhaps the person has already confessed, or part of what you need to do is go to him and let him know he has sinned against you so that he might confess.

A doctrine of forgiveness cannot be drawn from these isolated passages but from the whole thing put together. No one passage addresses it all, and throwing out proof texts that address parts of it doesn't really help.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Can we just agree to disagree?

Lack of forgiveness breeds bitterness and gives Satan a foothold in my life, therefore, I forgive immediately when I am wronged. If I had to wait for some of the people to ask for forgiveness, I would be waiting forever...

Some of the offenders are not saved, others may be dead. I believe I can forgive them for MY sake, if not for theirs.


(Edited to correct what I meant to say instead of what I said. )

 

[swaimj]

I have been unable to post on this thread for a day or so, but I wanted to clarify some of my own comments and deal with the questions I raised.

Here is the story I told:

Several weeks ago, here in Philadelphia, a young man was went into a Dunkin Donuts and began robbing the cashier. While in the process of this robbery, a Philly policeman walked in, not knowing what was occurring. When the robber saw the uniformed officer, he thought he was about to be confronted, so he shot the officer and killed him.

Let me repeat the questions I asked, in reverse order.

Does God forgive this man for this murder?

God does not unconditionally forgive this man for murder. If God forgave unconditionally, no one would ever go to hell because everyone's sins would be forgiven. God fogives sins based upon the atonement of Jesus Christ. Those who repent and receive Christ by faith have their sins forgiven. Those who do not are sent to hell. Surely, everyone who has posted on this thread agrees with this. God's forgiveness is thus the pattern for our forgiveness.

So we come to this statement that I made:

I forgive this man for shooting the officer. What is the benefit of my forgiveness to this man? What is the benefit of my forgiveness to the family of the officer who was killed?

How could I forgive this man if God has not forgiven him? I cannot. Otherwise I would be greater than God! Therefore, my forgiveness benefits this man not at all and my forgiveness certainly does not aid the family of the slain officer. Don't get me wrong. God stands ready to forgive this man. God is absolutely satisfied with the Son's offering for sin and any man who repents and puts faith in Christ is clothed in the righteousness of Christ and is cleansed from his sin. Since God stands ready to forgive, I stand ready to forgive as well. But, just as the actual transaction of forgiveness on God's part is based upon repentance, my willingness to forgive the man cannot actually be transacted unless and until he repents. And when willingness to forgive intersects with willingness to repent reconciliation is always the result: reconciliation between God and man and reconciliation between man and man.

 

[Brother Bob]

I have been unable to post on this thread for a day or so, but I wanted to clarify some of my own comments and deal with the questions I raised.

Here is the story I told:
Let me repeat the questions I asked, in reverse order.
God does not unconditionally forgive this man for murder. If God forgave unconditionally, no one would ever go to hell because everyone's sins would be forgiven. God fogives sins based upon the atonement of Jesus Christ. Those who repent and receive Christ by faith have their sins forgiven. Those who do not are sent to hell. Surely, everyone who has posted on this thread agrees with this. God's forgiveness is thus the pattern for our forgiveness.

So we come to this statement that I made: How could I forgive this man if God has not forgiven him? I cannot. Otherwise I would be greater than God! Therefore, my forgiveness benefits this man not at all and my forgiveness certainly does not aid the family of the slain officer. Don't get me wrong. God stands ready to forgive this man. God is absolutely satisfied with the Son's offering for sin and any man who repents and puts faith in Christ is clothed in the righteousness of Christ and is cleansed from his sin. Since God stands ready to forgive, I stand ready to forgive as well. But, just as the actual transaction of forgiveness on God's part is based upon repentance, my willingness to forgive the man cannot actually be transacted unless and until he repents. And when willingness to forgive intersects with willingness to repent reconciliation is always the result: reconciliation between God and man and reconciliation between man and man.

What about Apostle Paul. If he never actually did the killing, he was the one who gave the orders.

BBob,

 

[Pastor Larry]

Can we just agree to disagree?

Sure.

Forgiveness breeds bitterness and gives Satan a foothold in my life, therefore, I forgive immediately when I am wronged. If I had to wait for some of the people to ask for forgiveness, I would be waiting forever...

I think you mean "lack of forgiveness," but what you are talking about here is a forgiving spirit, I think.

Some of the offenders are not saved, others may be dead. I believe I can forgive them for MY sake, if not for theirs.

I think you have a forgiving spirit for Jesus' sake. Most of the time when I forgive, I don't get any benefit out of it. It actually hurts me because I give up my rights. But I think the gospel benefits.

 

[HankD]

Sure.

I think you mean "lack of forgiveness," but what you are talking about here is a forgiving spirit, I think.

I think you have a forgiving spirit for Jesus' sake. Most of the time when I forgive, I don't get any benefit out of it. It actually hurts me because I give up my rights. But I think the gospel benefits.

I agree with Pastor Larry, some demonstration of repentance is required in forgiveness...

From the Scripture Jesus teaches this principle:

Matthew 18:

15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.​

Now I know the word forgiveness is not used in this passage (which directly precedes the 70X7 passage) but if you have forgiven someone you don't treat that person like a "heathen" or a "publican".​

Well, we might say that "church" in this passage might simply mean "assembly" and that this is not an instruction to the New Covenant Church.​

If that is so and we disclaim this principle then we need also to throw out the 70X7 principle because it flows out of this passage.​

This principle is also taught in the NT epistles, we are to separate ourselves from sinning brethren and offer the expression of our forgiving spirit upon their repentance, welcoming them back into fellowship.​

Forgiveness-reconciliation seem so intermingled that personally, I don't believe we can have one without the other.​

There is also another condition (perhaps the most difficult of all for us) that the Lord makes concerning human-to-human forgiveness.​

Matthew 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.​

HankD​

 

[LadyEagle]

Not everyone who sins or trespasses against us is our brother or sister in Christ.

 

[swaimj]

Not everyone who sins or trespasses against us is our brother or sister in Christ.

I think this is a key concept in this discussion. Is there a difference in the process of forgiveness among the Christian family compared to forgiveness to outsiders?