Post-mil is right

[Luke2427]

I'm gonna hate myself for this...

The challenge of Post-Millennialism is that it stands without substantive Scriptural support. Outside of a range of verses with contested context and varied interpretation, the Post-Mil option still has no helpful answer for the bleak picture portrayed in Revelation and the immanence of Jesus' Olivet Discourse.

Post-Mil was a highly touted option eschatologically for a long time. Yet this was in the midst of a time where eschatology wasn't as hot a topic as it is now. Of course, we would be remiss if we didn't note that 99 years ago today the shelling of Serbia by the Austro-Hungarians began in protest of the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand.

About 95 years ago, the Post-Mil option ceased to be the predominate eschatological view given the desolation of WWI.

Those historical facts notwithstanding, the larger challenge of the Post-Mil still remains...there is nearly zero Scriptural support for the system from direct, plain text readings of Scripture.

The Bible is RIFE with passages that say that the Kingdom of God will expand and cover the earth, that knowledge of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea, that people will grab our coattails and ask us to lead them to God. I mean the Bible is FULL of such passages, so I don't know where you get the idea that there is no Scriptural justification.

Secondly, history does nothing BUT show Post-mil to be true. The church is not smaller in this world than it was 500 years ago, friend. It occupies a tremendous amount more of this world than it did five years ago. And it is growing by leaps and bounds today.

 

[Luke2427]

I tend now to lean amillennial with partial preterism.

The problem I have with postmillennialism is that it is way too "collectivistic" for my understanding of both Scripture and political economy. It is most often associated with theonomy (or even "Christian reconstructionism") and paedobaptism. I am a hardcore individualist and my understanding of covenant theology from a Baptist perspective conflicts with how I view postmillennialism. I also have a hard time being "optimistic" about a "Christianized" world where the anticipation is a lot of unsaved people "fit in" while not being regenerate. It seems to me that the medieval Catholic church fits what one might expect from postmillennialism.

Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
1Jn 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
1Jn 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
1Jn 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

I don't think it is true that theonomy and postmil are inseparable. Yes, some postmils are theonomists but I am not and all the postmils I know are not.

The idea of postmill is not that we take the world by taking the government and legislating Christianity. The idea is that we make so many disciples for Christ that world voluntarily becomes Christian.

 

[Luke2427]

Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
Joh 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

1Jn 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

I'm sorry, but I do not see this mythical golden age prior to Christ's return.

Our hope is not in a coming golden age of quasi-Christianity. We groan until the redemption of our body that happens at Christ's return.

The reason that you do not see it may be because you have this modern interpretation problem about what "Christ's coming" means.

Now, ALL Christians believe in THE Second Coming though some don't call it that. But we ALL believe that one day Christ will come to the earth for the final time and time will give way to eternity.

But if you think that every reference to God coming HAS to refer to that ONE FINAL COMING, then you will misinterpret those passages.

Before Scofield and TBN very few people gave any credence at all to Darby's dispensational rapture theology.

You being an old man does not change the fact that for better than a thousand years before you were born Christians were largely either postmil or amil and almost NONE believe in this dispenational, rapture business.

The world is getting better. Refusing to see that does not change the fact that it is happening.

The reason you cannot see it is because you judge the world in WAY too small chunks of space and time. You judge it by this nation in your lifetime.

The way you SHOULD judge it is WORLDWIDE over the past TWO THOUSAND years.

If you do that, you will have no choice as a reasonable man but to conclude that the world is getting better.

 

[preachinjesus]

The Bible is RIFE with passages that say that the Kingdom of God will expand and cover the earth, that knowledge of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea, that people will grab our coattails and ask us to lead them to God. I mean the Bible is FULL of such passages, so I don't know where you get the idea that there is no Scriptural justification.

Well, the three greatest challenges to the post-mill position are these:

1. The idea of the immanent return of Jesus Christ at the eschaton that fills the NT eschatological scheme. That Jesus can return at any moment violates the idea of the post-mill position particularly in light of the world wars and global conflicts that afflict our modern age.

2. The utter lack of a post-millennial framework in Revelation. Things aren't getting better, things aren't going well, the earthly Kingdom isn't growing...in fact it is shrinking. Then the return of Christ at the parousia. Even with a less than linear appproach to the text the post-millennial position is quashed in light of the depictions of death and harassment that exist. Post-millennialists struggle to maintain a consisent biblical hermeneutic.

3. It fundamentally misunderstands God's Kingdom work as described by the NT.
Where ever God's Kingdom is described in the NT it is always something accomplished by the act and will of God. Postmillennialism sees God's Kingdom as something established by men that creates the opportunity for God to return. Thus, God is dependent upon mankind for His return and fulfillment of the Kingdom. I don't agree that this is a proper understanding of God's Kingdom nor His character.

Secondly, history does nothing BUT show Post-mil to be true. The church is not smaller in this world than it was 500 years ago, friend. It occupies a tremendous amount more of this world than it did five years ago. And it is growing by leaps and bounds today.

The historical argument isn't effective for your position. Particularly following last century, the bloodiest century of history.

While I'll admit that the Church isn't smaller than it was 500 years ago, I will point out that the world is ten times larger population wise than it was 500 years ago. If we take even the most generous global population estimates there were only 500,000,000 people living in the world in 1700s. Now we have over 6,000,000,000. The issue at the center should be, what is the ratio of Christians to the world population. I'd say now its probably about the same, maybe around 45%. But how much of that is genetic conversion? So this is a moot point.

The larger picture of the Kingdom of God coming that is displayed in post-millennialism is that things are getting better and God's work is exploding across the globe. Taken to its logical conclusion the point of post-millennialism is that the return of Christ only comes about when the vast majority of the world population is Christian and active believers. Anybody that says that is a realistic option hasn't been to the Middle East, Africe, Western Europe, Asia, etc.

Post-millennialism requires a dramatically growing Church in the world alongside an increasingly better world while prohibiting the immanent return of Jesus Christ to the world.

I don't see that as a valid theological or NT option.

 

[Luke2427]

Well, the three greatest challenges to the post-mill position are these:

1. The idea of the immanent return of Jesus Christ at the eschaton that fills the NT eschatological scheme. That Jesus can return at any moment violates the idea of the post-mill position particularly in light of the world wars and global conflicts that afflict our modern age.

Actually immanence is one of the great evidences supporting postmil. Jesus said that not only would his return be immanent, in the sense that it could happen at any time, but that it would happen in the generation that lived while he spoke of his return.

He did return in that generation- in judgment on Israel through the slaughter of over a million Jews and the permanent destruction of the Judaic religion based in thousands of years of Temple worship in 70 AD. Jesus brought about the end of the world in that generation- the world of Judaism (historical Judaism- not the rabbinic type that lingers and is not a shadow of real Judaism).

When Jesus said he would return in Matthew 24, it was in the context of the destruction of the Temple and the end of the age of Judaism.

2. The utter lack of a post-millennial framework in Revelation. Things aren't getting better, things aren't going well, the earthly Kingdom isn't growing...in fact it is shrinking. Then the return of Christ at the parousia. Even with a less than linear appproach to the text the post-millennial position is quashed in light of the depictions of death and harassment that exist. Post-millennialists struggle to maintain a consisent biblical hermeneutic.

Revelation is best framed in the postmil paradigm. The beast was probably Nero. Revelation was probably written BEFORE the destruction of the Temple. The classic understanding of Revelation being written in 90 AD or later is probably wrong. There are plenty of works by Bible scholars out there that contend for a much earlier date for the book of Revelation.

Things most certainly ARE getting better.

In Christ's day the Romans did not even HAVE a word for homosexual because it was so commonplace. Sex was sex. Most Roman men had boy-lovers- 13 year old boys they slept with. Human sacrifice was not uncommon in the CIVILIZED world. Roman entertainment included thousands of Roman screaming with glee at the brutal slaughter of human beings in the Roman Coliseums. Do you think boxing or the UFC compares with feeding dissidents alive to hungry lions?

At the same time in what is now England, human sacrifice and canabalism was commonplace.

We freak out over men like Pol Pot but wholesale genocide was not uncommon two thousand years ago.

The Gospel is taming the world, restraining human depravity and making the world a better place in which to live.

As I type this, I enjoy air conditioning, a Subway turkey sandwich, freedom, security and no fear of invasion. I live in a nation founded upon Christian principles which is blessed beyond measure. The POOREST of us live in air conditioned homes and have cable TV.

This is not just true in America but it is true in most of Europe as well. The quality of life has increased exponentially since 2,000 years ago and it continues to increase.

And as for the World Wars- consider that in spite of the vast numbers of people who died in them, the population of the earth did not miss a BEAT. If life was so bad the earth would not house 7 BILLION people.

Christians have filled the world with hospitals, crisis care centers, compassionate orphanages, colleges.

The only truly BAD places to live today are the places where the Gospel has yet to take hold.

Jesus said he would build his church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it.

He did not lie. History has shown the church growing and blessing the earth steadily for two thousand years.

Jesus said the Kingdom of God would be like mustard seed, very small at first but would grow until its branches provided shade for the whole earth. That is exactly what we see happening.

3. It fundamentally misunderstands God's Kingdom work as described by the NT.
Where ever God's Kingdom is described in the NT it is always something accomplished by the act and will of God.

When God uses you to get the Gospel to a lost soul and that lost soul yields and is saved- it is still a work of God though God used you as his means whereby he accomplished this work.

Saying the church will preach the Gospel through acts of declaration and acts of compassion and eventually most of the people on earth will receive that Gospel is not saying that it is not a work of God.

EVERYTHING is a work of God.

Postmillennialism sees God's Kingdom as something established by men that creates the opportunity for God to return. Thus, God is dependent upon mankind for His return and fulfillment of the Kingdom. I don't agree that this is a proper understanding of God's Kingdom nor His character.

This is a fundamental misunderstanding. Postmil does not at all see it that way. Postmillennialists believe in the Sovereignty of God more than anyone. But they understand that God sovereignly uses means to accomplish his purposes.

But make no mistake. God the Father did tell God the Son to sit at his right hand UNTIL his foes are made his footstool. Jesus is not going to leave the right hand of the father until those enemies are put down and the world is His.

But Jesus is going to do what he said he would do- he is going to conquer the earth through the grace of God distributed through the Church to the world by the preaching of the Gospel.

The historical argument isn't effective for your position. Particularly following last century, the bloodiest century of history.

I answered that above.

While I'll admit that the Church isn't smaller than it was 500 years ago, I will point out that the world is ten times larger population wise than it was 500 years ago. If we take even the most generous global population estimates there were only 500,000,000 people living in the world in 1700s. Now we have over 6,000,000,000. The issue at the center should be, what is the ratio of Christians to the world population. I'd say now its probably about the same, maybe around 45%. But how much of that is genetic conversion? So this is a moot point.

It is not a moot point. At Pentecost in the early thirties of the first century there were TWELVE disciples. That's 12 out of 200,000,000!!

That's about 0.000000006 percent of the world population. Now its about 30%! The church is reaching more people today and taking up a larger percentage of the world population today than it ever has. The two links I shared in the OP prove that.

The larger picture of the Kingdom of God coming that is displayed in post-millennialism is that things are getting better and God's work is exploding across the globe. Taken to its logical conclusion the point of post-millennialism is that the return of Christ only comes about when the vast majority of the world population is Christian and active believers. Anybody that says that is a realistic option hasn't been to the Middle East, Africe, Western Europe, Asia, etc.

You haven't been to Africa obviously. Millions of people are coming to Christ in Arfica every year.

Asia? The fastest growing church on EARTH today is the underground church in China!

Post-millennialism requires a dramatically growing Church in the world alongside an increasingly better world

Which is PRECISELY what we see.

And it is precisely what Jesus told us to expect.

 

[SovereignMercy]

Didn't realize we had an alien from another world on this forum. What you're describing certainly isn't happening on planet earth I live on.

 

[percho]

Thanks for the links Luke. Although I probably don't qualify as a post mil, there's much that I do agree with.

Excerpt from Hassell's Church History, 1886:

“But it is the opinion of the great majority of Bible scholars that there will be but one more personal advent of Christ, and that it will be after the Millennium. They maintain that the idea of a pre-millennial advent is Jewish in its origin, and Judaizing or materializing in its tendency; that it disparages the present, the dispensation of the Holy Ghost; that it is inconsistent with the Scriptures, which teach that Christ comes but twice, to atone and to judge (Heb. 9:28); that the Heavens must receive Christ until the times of the restitution of all things (Acts 3:21); that Christ's kingdom is not of this world, but spiritual (Matthew 13:11-44; John 17:36; Rom. 14:17); that it was not to be confined to the Jews (Matthew 8:11, 12); that regeneration is the essential antecedent of admission to it (John 3:3-5); that the blessings of the kingdom are purely spiritual, as repentance, pardon, faith, etc. (Matthew 3:2, 11; Acts 5:31; Gal. 5:22, 23, etc.); that the kingdom of Christ has already come, He having sat upon the throne of His Father David ever since His ascension (Acts 2:29-36; 3:13-15; 4:26-28; 5:29-31; Heb. 10:12, 13; Rev. 3:7-12), so that the Old Testament prophecies predicting this kingdom must refer to the present dispensation of grace, and not to a future reign of Christ on earth in person among men in the flesh; and that the church is to be complete at His next coming (1 Thess. 3:13; 2 Thess. 1:10).”

Excerpts from Edersheim, The Life and Times of Jesus The Messiah, 1890:

“Concerning this 'Kingdom of Heaven,' which was the great message of John, and the great work of Christ Himself, [1 Keim beautifully designates it: Das Lieblingswort Jesu.] we may here say, that it is the whole Old Testament sublimated, and the whole New Testament realised. The idea of it did not lie hidden in the Old, to be opened up in the New Testament, as did the mystery of its realisation. [a Rom. xvi 25, 26; Eph. i. 9; Col. i. 26, 27.] But this rule of heaven and Kingship of Jehovah was the very substance of the Old Testament; the object of the calling and mission of Israel; the meaning of all its ordinances, whether civil or religious; [2 If, indeed, in the preliminary dispensation these two can be well separated.] the underlying idea of all its institutions. [3 I confess myself utterly unable to understand, how anyone writing a History of the Jewish Church can apparently eliminate from it what even Keim designates as the 'treibenden Gedanken des Alten Testaments', those of the Kingdom and the King. A Kingdom of God without a King; a Theocracy without the rule of God; a perpetual Davidic Kingdom without a 'Son of David', these are antinomies (to borrow the term of Kant) of which neither the Old Testament, the Apocrypha, the Pseudepigraphic writings, nor Rabbinism were guility.] It explained alike the history of the people, the dealings of God with them, and the prospects opened up by the prophets. Without it the Old Testament could not be understood; it gave perpetuity to its teaching, and dignity to its representations. This constituted alike the real contrast between Israel and the nations of antiquity, and Israel's real title to distinction. Thus the whole Old Testament was the preparatory presentation of the rule of heaven and of the Kingship of its Lord.”

“......an analysis of 119 passages in the New Testament where the expression 'Kingdom' occurs, shows that:

.........it means the rule of God; [1 In this view the expression occurs thirty-four times, viz: St. Matt. vi. 33; xii. 28; xiii. 38; xix. 24; xxi. 31; St. Mark i. 14; x. 15, 23, 24, 25; xii. 34; St. Luke i. 33; iv. 43; ix. 11; x. 9, 11; xi. 20; xii. 31; xvii. 20, 21; xviii. 17, 24, 25, 29; St. John iii. 3; Acts i. 3; viii. 12; xx. 25; xxviii. 31; Rom. xiv. 17; 1 Cor. iv. 20; Col. iv. 11; 1 Thess. ii. 12; Rev.i.9

......which was manifested in and through Christ; [2 As in the following seventeen passages, viz.: St. Matt. iii. 2; iv. 17, 23; v. 3, 10; ix. 35; x. 7; St. Mark i. 15; xi. 10; St. Luke viii. 1; ix. 2; xvi. 16; xix. 12, 15; Acts i. 3; xxviii. 23; Rev. i. 9.]

.......is apparent in 'the Church; [3 As in the following eleven passages: St. Matt. xi. 11; xiii. 41; xvi. 19; xviii. 1; xxi. 43; xxiii. 13; St. Luke vii. 28; St.John iii. 5; Acts i. 3; Col. i. 13; Rev. i. 9.]

........gradually develops amidst hindrances; [4 As in the following twenty-four passages: St. Matt. xi. 12; xiii. 11, 19, 24, 31, 33, 44, 45, 47, 52; xviii. 23; xx. 1; xxii. 2; xxv. 1, 14; St. Mark iv. 11, 26, 30; St. Luke viii. 10; ix. 62; xiii. 18, 20; Acts i. 3; Rev. i. 9.]

.........is triumphant at the second coming of Christ ('the end') [5 As in the following twelve passages: St. Matthew xvi. 28; St. Mark ix. 1; St. Mark xvi. 28; St. Mark ix. 1; xv. 43; St. Luke ix. 27; xix. 11; xxi. 31; xxii. 16, 18; Acts i. 3; 2 Tim. iv. 1; Heb. xii. 28; Rev. i. 9.] ;

.........and, finally, perfected in the world to come. [6 As in the following thirty-one passages: St. Matt. v. 19, 20; vii. 21; viii. 11; xiii. 43; xviii. 3; xxv. 34; xxvi. 29; St. Mark ix. 47; x. 14; xiv. 25; St. Luke vi. 20; xii. 32; xiii. 28, 29; xiv. 15; xviii. 16; xxii. 29; Acts i. 3; xiv. 22; 1 Cor. vi. 9, 10; xv. 24, 50; Gal. v. 21; Eph. v. 5; 2 Thess. i. 5; St. James ii. 5; 2
Peter i. 11; Rev. i. 9; xii. 10.]”

Why I believe this to be in error.


Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim holy convocations, these my feasts. Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work: it the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings. These the feasts of the LORD, holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.

In the fourteenth [day] of the first month at even the LORD'S passover.

And on the fifteenth day of the same month the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.

Notice the feasts [days] of the Lord are holy convocations.

The Passover is listed here on the fourteenth of the first month, yet is not said to be a holy convocation. ----- Why? Because that is the beginning point for the bring forth of the new creation of man and the kingdom of God.

Jesus the Lamb of God that takes away the sin (singular) of the world.
The sin of one man brought death to all men. That is what is being paid by the Passover Lamb.

Then begin the feast. The first contained two holy convocations. the 15th and the 21st.

The Passover was a preparation for the first holy convocation. They were to begin to remove leaven from their dwellings. Exactly what unleavened us. was it not the death of Christ? 1 Cor.5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: ---I believe the second holy convocation being having the leaven purged all our life by that shed blood of the Passover through confession of sins. 1 John 1:7,9
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The next feast, holy convocation came fifty days following the morrow after the Sabbath following the Passover. On the day of firstfruits after your weeks be out. Pentecost, the feast of weeks, the feast of firstfruits. On that morrow following the Sabbath following the Passover they brought a sheaf of the firstfruits of the harvest to the priest to be waved before the Lord to be accepted for them, but that day was not a holy convocation. That day was not the feast of firstfruits. Christ was the firstfruits of the dead and he ascended on that day to the Father to be accepted for us, yet it was not a holy convocation nor the feast of firstfruits.

The third feast [day] of the year the feast of firstfruits was the day the Holy Spirit was given, it was for showing; Romans 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. ----- That is the day God begin to call from the Jews and the Gentiles a people for his name. That is still going on today. Acts 15:8,14 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as unto us; Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

See part two.

 

[percho]

Part two;


There are seven holy convocations, seven feast [days], three are past and there are still four to come.

Again Romans 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

The adoption, the redemption of our body will take place at the next feast [day] holy convocation. The fulfillment of; a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation. The feast of Trumpets. The establishment of the kingdom of God with spiritual beings 1 Cor. 15:49-54 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. ----- This kingdom will be established after the calling out of a people for the name of God. Acts 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

The next holy convocation feast day takes place shortly after that. What is the greatest hindrance to man on the earth to day? Is it not the presence of Satan. Does mankind being deceived by Satan the devil really have free will and is able to seek God? The day of Atonement. Read Lev. 16 and compare to
Revelation 20:1-3 That feast speaks of binding Satan so he cannot deceive the nations. The goat for Azazel is for the binding of Satan. Only then can man seek the Lord and those called for his name, which begins the next feast.

The feast of ingathering: A holy convocation The kingdom of God in full swing.
When all Israel shall be saved. Romans 11:25,26 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: --- and John 7:37 In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.--- The last feast day, Acts 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.


That is the way I understand the Mil. and the kingdom of God.

 

[preachinjesus]

Actually immanence is one of the great evidences supporting postmil. Jesus said that not only would his return be immanent, in the sense that it could happen at any time, but that it would happen in the generation that lived while he spoke of his return.

You haven't read much postmillennial theology if you believe this. Jesus' return is predicated upon mankind's creation of a utopia. Thus, in terms of God's planned return, it becomes more contigent on mankind's accomplishment rather than God's plan.

Post-millennialism, more than either of the two other millennial categories, denies immanence.

He did return in that generation- in judgment on Israel through the slaughter of over a million Jews and the permanent destruction of the Judaic religion based in thousands of years of Temple worship in 70 AD. Jesus brought about the end of the world in that generation- the world of Judaism (historical Judaism- not the rabbinic type that lingers and is not a shadow of real Judaism).

Whoa, hold here folks.

First of all, this is erroneous historically. The Jews weren't destroyed in AD 70. The Temple was destroyed and many were killed, but Judaism, and its Second Temple form existed for another couple of hundred years until the events following Bar Kokhba in AD 135. You simply don't understand the history here.

What do you do with the council of Jamnia (or Yavneh) in AD 70? What do you do with Kitos in AD 115? Then what do you do with the developments of the Mishnah and the Talmud, not to mention the Haggadah? How about Julian's attempts to rebuild in AD 363?

The genetic link with Israel was consolidated into the tribe of Judah (thus Judaism) following the Babylonian Captivity, but it continues through until today. Though spiritual Israel of the OT ceased to exist after Nehemiah's restoration of Temple worship, the political Israel of today is that of the Jewish people which can be (should be) understood as related to the Second Temple period.

Either you're entirely ignorant of the history or you're presenting a poor version of it.

When Jesus said he would return in Matthew 24, it was in the context of the destruction of the Temple and the end of the age of Judaism.

The only theologians who accept this are preterists. Preterism isn't postmillennialism.

You are conflating the two eschatological concepts dangerously and it is presenting an invalid form of post-millennialism.

So are you really saying Jesus return at AD 70?

Revelation is best framed in the postmil paradigm. The beast was probably Nero. Revelation was probably written BEFORE the destruction of the Temple. The classic understanding of Revelation being written in 90 AD or later is probably wrong. There are plenty of works by Bible scholars out there that contend for a much earlier date for the book of Revelation.

Find me five legitimate commentaries authored by reputable scholars with PhDs in New Testament who contend that Revelation is best understood by a postmillennial framework.

Do it, find them.

What does a postmillennial framework even look like? Everything becomes fictional.

Things most certainly ARE getting better.

What world do you live in?

How many people died in wars over the last 100 years versus the previous 8,000?

How many people are trapped in human trafficking right now?

How many people are suffering from oppressive political regimes?

How many people are living in bone crushing poverty?

In Christ's day the Romans did not even HAVE a word for homosexual because it was so commonplace. Sex was sex. Most Roman men had boy-lovers- 13 year old boys they slept with.

This is 100% false.

The first century had plenty of words to describe this and they're used the NT.

We freak out over men like Pol Pot but wholesale genocide was not uncommon two thousand years ago.

The amount of people murdered in genocide and holocaust over the last 100 years has been more than all the people who lived since the first century.

The Gospel is taming the world, restraining human depravity and making the world a better place in which to live.

Again, what world do you live in because this isn't true.

As I type this, I enjoy air conditioning, a Subway turkey sandwich, freedom, security and no fear of invasion. I live in a nation founded upon Christian principles which is blessed beyond measure. The POOREST of us live in air conditioned homes and have cable TV.

The United States represents 5% of the world population.

It isn't a fair barometer for anything.

Just because you've been blessed with abundance isn't the metric anyone should use to describe the world's current state. You need to do more research.

This is not just true in America but it is true in most of Europe as well. The quality of life has increased exponentially since 2,000 years ago and it continues to increase.

So you're saying Europe is an effective metric for gauging how widespread this Gospel proclamation is going?

How's the Church doing in Europe again?

What's the cultural status of Christianity?

How many people are being saved in droves in Europe? How fast is secularization being pushed back? How fast is biblical Christianity growing again?

Christians have filled the world with hospitals, crisis care centers, compassionate orphanages, colleges.

Which are important ministries, but fail to take in the perspective of the total global picture of poverty, death, and disease not to mention the numbers of tortured, abused, and persecuted individuals across the world.

The only truly BAD places to live today are the places where the Gospel has yet to take hold.

You can't be serious. You literally cannot be serious. I'm guessing this whole thread is an excuse to start a debate at this point.

Jesus said he would build his church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it.

This is an ancillary point to the discussion.

He did not lie. History has shown the church growing and blessing the earth steadily for two thousand years.

Jesus said the Kingdom of God would be like mustard seed, very small at first but would grow until its branches provided shade for the whole earth. That is exactly what we see happening.

Again, this is conjecture. How's the Church doing in Europe again?

EVERYTHING is a work of God.

Incluidng the rape, torture, enslavement, genocide, and systematic persecution of ethnic and religious minorities?

This is a fundamental misunderstanding. Postmil does not at all see it that way. Postmillennialists believe in the Sovereignty of God more than anyone. But they understand that God sovereignly uses means to accomplish his purposes.

You are talking about something you don't know.

I'll reply to more later, but you're going to have to show us that your reality represents the truthfulness of the world situation.

Also, your understanding of first century Jewish life is not well informed. Please answer those underlying issues so we can proceed.

What world are you living in again?

 

[Iconoclast]

preachinjesus

You haven't read much postmillennial theology if you believe this. Jesus' return is predicated upon mankind's creation of a utopia. Thus, in terms of God's planned return, it becomes more contigent on mankind's accomplishment rather than God's plan.

I was taught this years ago,but it is not accurate.
Man does not create a utopia....man is used by God to preach the gospel worldwide.God effects salvation worldwide.

http://www.christianciv.com/eschatology_bs_Append.htm.

Find me five legitimate commentaries authored by reputable scholars with PhDs in New Testament who contend that Revelation is best understood by a postmillennial framework.

Do it, find them.

What does a postmillennial framework even look like? Everything becomes fictional.

Days of Vengeance......Chilton

What world do you live in?

How many people died in wars over the last 100 years versus the previous 8,000?

How many people are trapped in human trafficking right now?

How many people are suffering from oppressive political regimes?

How many people are living in bone crushing poverty?

These questions have nothing to do with the issue.

.

 

[preachinjesus]

I was taught this years ago,but it is not accurate.
Man does not create a utopia....man is used by God to preach the gospel worldwide.God effects salvation worldwide.

http://www.christianciv.com/eschatology_bs_Append.htm.

Salvation contingent upon mankind creating a better world that is increasingly to a stage of utopia.

This is part of the standard definition of postmillennialism.

Days of Vengeance......Chilton

Chilton isn't a credible scholar, he's not a scholar...he's a theological hack with a gifted degree.

These questions have nothing to do with the issue.

Respectfully disagree, the contention is that the world is increasingly a better place. My questions are, in light of these on going and growing travesties, that the world in fact isn't getting better. Instead, it is getting much, much worse.

So, what about some of my questions as it relates to when Jesus is coming? Has He already come? Are all the events of Revelation pointing to postmillennialism?

Thanks

 

[kyredneck]

...Respectfully disagree, the contention is that the world is increasingly a better place. My questions are, in light of these on going and growing travesties, that the world in fact isn't getting better. Instead, it is getting much, much worse.

So, what about some of my questions as it relates to when Jesus is coming? Has He already come? Are all the events of Revelation pointing to postmillennialism?

Thanks

(I'm not molesting you, I actually like and respect you)

Respectfully ask, did Christ destroy the works of the devil or not?

Was Satan bound or not?

Were the idols of the Gentiles 'famished' or not?

Why are we not sacrificing our children over Niagara Falls now?

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, which is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, Rev 20

11 Jehovah will be terrible unto them; for he will famish all the gods of the earth; and men shall worship him, every one from his place, even all the isles of the nations. Zeph 2

8 he that doeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. To this end was the Son of God manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Excerpt from 'The Parousia' (1878), by James Stuart Russell
"Are we, then, to suppose that anything equivalent to this symbol, the binding and imprisoning of Satan, has actually taken place, and took place at the time indicated, viz. the close of the Jewish dispensation? We have no hesitation in answering in the affirmative, and we think there is the clearest warrant both in Scripture and in history for this conclusion.

No one will contend that the symbols in the vision require a literal or physical chaining of the dragon. Common sense will teach that all that is meant is the repression and restriction of satanic power during the period indicated. Now there seems no reason to doubt that before and during our Saviour’s incarnation there was an energy and activity of moral evil existing in the earth far exceeding anything that is now known among men. It is not unreasonable to suppose that the period of our Lord’s earthly life was a season of intense and unparalleled activity among the powers of darkness. If they knew that the champion of God, the Redeemer of mankind, was come in order ‘that he might destroy the works of the devil,’ there was cause for their alarm; and our Lord’s temptations in the wilderness, and the malignant opposition to Christ and His cause, everywhere ascribed in the New Testament to Satan, reveal both the knowledge of the adversary respecting the Saviour’s mission and his unceasing efforts to counteract it. In addition to this, the remarkable prevalence of the mysterious phenomenon of demoniacal possession in the time of Christ is a decisive proof of the presence and activity of a malefic spiritual influence, in a form and degree which to us is unknown, and to many even incredible. Unless, then, we are prepared to give up the reality of that mysterious influence, and resolve it into mere popular ignorance or delusion, we must admit that there has been a marked and decisive check to the power of Satan over men since the time of Christ. The same may be said respecting the prevalence of moral evil in that age of the world. Let any one consider what Rome was in the days of Nero, and what Jerusalem was in the closing period of the Jewish commonwealth, and he will at once concede the undeniable fact of an abnormal and portentous development of wickedness such as to us appears incredible. Juvenal and Tacitus will bear witness of Rome, and Josephus of Jerusalem; and it is not contrary to reason, while wholly agreeable to Revelation, to infer that such enormous and colossal vice betrays the operation of a satanic influence."

Things have gotten much better since Christ arrived on the scene.

 

[Iconoclast]

preachinjesus

Hello Pj

Salvation contingent upon mankind creating a better world that is increasingly to a stage of utopia.

All postmill books I have looked at deny this quite emphatically.The know the outward reformation is not going to work.They all with one voice stress that new birth and the spread of the gospel is the only hope for mankind.

This is part of the standard definition of postmillennialism.

Again...the teaching I have seen says that by biblical conversion, eventually their are more Christian legislators,more christian voters, etc....society begins to be affected.
It is not based on the newspapers, ww2 or any of those factors at all.
PJ....let's say that Jesus does not return for 37,000 yrs.Many things you are thinking about could be much different by then.
It would take a revival of the churches here and in Europe, and continued growth of the churches in third world countries....but that is under God's control...not man paving the way with outward ,external christianizing, or moralizing goats and tares!

Chilton isn't a credible scholar, he's not a scholar...he's a theological hack with a gifted degree.

I have only read two of his books.....so I am not able to judge his body of work....but I have not seen anyone critique Days of Vengeance...effectively.
He was very through in matching OT texts to Nt historical fulfillments, and did suggest a framework for rev 1-19 that would show how most things were fulfilled ,even if he has not got everything right, he addressed tons more Ot scriptures than most other eschatological writers I have read.

Respectfully disagree, the contention is that the world is increasingly a better place. My questions are, in light of these on going and growing travesties, that the world in fact isn't getting better. Instead, it is getting much, much worse.

We might be in a downturn in our generation short term, but the postmill guys I have read point out how far the gospel has spread so far, from the first 120....at pentecost, to many countries worldwide.It is still a work in progress....

So, what about some of my questions as it relates to when Jesus is coming? Has He already come

?

Pj....I am leaning toward postmill, or optimistic Amill at this point in my studies....

Jesus ....did not physically return to earth in 70ad.....but he did "come in Judgement" upon apostate Israel......fulfilling Deut 28-33....in Mt 20-25.... and most all of MT 24 was fulfilled at that time....in that the theocracy was destroyed ,and the Christian Israel...[Jesus as head of His church....elect remnant of Israel ,elect gentiles grafted in}

I believe He physically ...returns, comes back,...ON THE LAST DAY ...as he said in JN 6..... The rapture is the last day, followed by the White Throne Judgement,and the eternal state....Jesus is reigning NOW....from heaven, in the MIDST of His enemies...He reigns until He delivers the Kingdom up to the Father..

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

Are all the events of Revelation pointing to postmillennialism?

No...the events of Revelation were given primarily to the 7 churches instructing them as to a few main ideas....

1] where is Jesus now

2] what is he doing as Eternal High Priest

3]what about persecuted saints rev 6...10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

If you give the passages a read....as if it was a direct warning to the early church, to let them know that persecution was going to happen, but they were to remain faithful and understand that they still win in Jesus...
You can see how Mt 24 fits into this warning....the language about the sun, moon and stars, people being "marked" in jerusalem..were figures from the OT.....joel, 2,3 Isa 13, 34,Jer... ezk 9....

Revelation speaks of two women....the bride....and the great whore..
the faithful overcomers...and the whorish apostates.....
rev12 is an overview of the Nt age.....Jerusalem has become babylon, like earlier it was described as Sodom and egypt....

So...what is left???? the faithful proclamation of the gospel in the midst of scoffers....2 pet3.....a great harvest being brought in during the longsuffering of God ...bearing with sinful flesh ,until the last of the elect sheep is found...then comes the end:thumbs:

Thanks

You are welcome:wavey: Pj....I am not an expert on this by any means.I have found these things out while at one time opposing them.....

It takes much time and study to even know what the issues are...that is why many only dip their toes in the water,and run back to the blanket, rather then jump into the waves:wavey:

 

[percho]

I know this country is getting better and better. Don't know if it is because of the church or maybe it's the current political administration. I just know it is better and better.






Sarcasm

 

[Luke2427]

Didn't realize we had an alien from another world on this forum. What you're describing certainly isn't happening on planet earth I live on.

Exactly what detail that I provided is not accurate?

 

[Luke2427]

You haven't read much postmillennial theology if you believe this. Jesus' return is predicated upon mankind's creation of a utopia. Thus, in terms of God's planned return, it becomes more contigent on mankind's accomplishment rather than God's plan.

Post-millennialism, more than either of the two other millennial categories, denies immanence.

Matthew 24 COULD NOT BE MORE CLEAR that Jesus was speaking of his return in which the Temple would be destroyed.

Jesus was saying it would happen during this very generation in which he lived. It did happen.

Those are the facts.

Whoa, hold here folks.

First of all, this is erroneous historically. The Jews weren't destroyed in AD 70. The Temple was destroyed and many were killed, but Judaism, and its Second Temple form existed for another couple of hundred years until the events following Bar Kokhba in AD 135. You simply don't understand the history here.

What do you do with the council of Jamnia (or Yavneh) in AD 70? What do you do with Kitos in AD 115? Then what do you do with the developments of the Mishnah and the Talmud, not to mention the Haggadah? How about Julian's attempts to rebuild in AD 363?

The genetic link with Israel was consolidated into the tribe of Judah (thus Judaism) following the Babylonian Captivity, but it continues through until today. Though spiritual Israel of the OT ceased to exist after Nehemiah's restoration of Temple worship, the political Israel of today is that of the Jewish people which can be (should be) understood as related to the Second Temple period.

Either you're entirely ignorant of the history or you're presenting a poor version of it.

So let me get this straight. You think that these things meant that Second Temple Judaism was alive and well after the obliteration of the Second TEMPLE????

And I did not say the JEWS were destroyed. It would be helpful if you would read more thoroughly. I said the age of Second Temple Judaism was obliterated.

The only theologians who accept this are preterists. Preterism isn't postmillennialism.
You are conflating the two eschatological concepts dangerously and it is presenting an invalid form of post-millennialism.

Now, this proves you have no idea what you are talking about. Preterism is not some separate eschatology like amil or premil. Preterism is a sub category of eschatology that people from both amil AND POSTMIL embrace.

If you did not know that many, if not MOST postmils are preterists then you are not educated enough on this topic to discuss it at the level at which you are trying to discuss.

If you think that preterism is somehow dichotomous to postmil then you just don't know much about this subject.

So are you really saying Jesus return at AD 70?

Yes, with thousands of other people from both postmil and amil camps. Almost ALL preterists believe this. If you knew what you were talking about you would not be so surprised.

Find me five legitimate commentaries authored by reputable scholars with PhDs in New Testament who contend that Revelation is best understood by a postmillennial framework.Do it, find them.

Gladly.

But first, you do understand that the vast majority of protestant Bible scholars were postmillennialists before about one hundred years ago, right?

What does a postmillennial framework even look like? Everything becomes fictional.

If you have to ask what it looks like then that is a clear indicator that you are not educated on this subject.

Any truly eschatalogically knowledgeable person knows what it looks like whether they agree with it or not.

What world do you live in?

How many people died in wars over the last 100 years versus the previous 8,000?

What a silly question!!

In a world with hundreds of millions of more people in it you would EXPECT for there to be more people to die in wars.

Think in terms of percentages. I should not have to tell you that.

How many people are trapped in human trafficking right now?

Percetage wise less than thirteen year old boys who were made out to be boy lovers in the several hundred years of Greek then Roman rule of the world. The most CIVILIZED people in the WORLD were perverts and child molestors and got their jollies watching hundreds of people be fed alive to lions!!!

Where is THAT, PJ??

How many people are suffering from oppressive political regimes?

How many people are living in bone crushing poverty?

How many, how many?

What a stupid question!!

What percentage and what level of poverty and how much worse was poverty a thousand years ago than it is today.

There are seven BILLION people on earth today, PJ! I should not have to tell you to figure that in your reasoning!

This is 100% false.

The first century had plenty of words to describe this and they're used the NT.

Provide the Latin word for homosexual that was used in the first century.

Enter the Jeopardy theme song....

The amount of people murdered in genocide and holocaust over the last 100 years has been more than all the people who lived since the first century.

Prove that stat first of all.

Second of all consider that if Hitler and Stalin killed six million Jews out of multiplied millions of Jews that Titus slaughter of a MILLION Jews in 70 AD out of a very few million Jews makes Titus slaughter far more devastating. Then consider the horror of Nebuchadnezzar's holocaust and enlsavement on the whole Jewish Kingdom for GENERATIONS!!!

I should not have to tell you such things!!

Again, what world do you live in because this isn't true.

Yes, it is true.

The United States represents 5% of the world population.

It isn't a fair barometer for anything.

Just because you've been blessed with abundance isn't the metric anyone should use to describe the world's current state. You need to do more research.

As I have proven, not only is your research pathetic but your understanding of this subject is invincibly deficient.

So you're saying Europe is an effective metric for gauging how widespread this Gospel proclamation is going?

How's the Church doing in Europe again?

MUCH better than it was a thousand years ago.

What's the cultural status of Christianity?

How many people are being saved in droves in Europe? How fast is secularization being pushed back? How fast is biblical Christianity growing again?

Christianity is on the rise in Europe and whole NATIONS in Europe identify themselves as Christians and Southern Baptist missions ALONE in Europe are winning multitudes to Christ. That's not to mention the work done by Presbyterians, Charismatics, Anglicans, etc...

Which are important ministries, but fail to take in the perspective of the total global picture of poverty, death, and disease not to mention the numbers of tortured, abused, and persecuted individuals across the world.

The world is not there yet, PJ. Obviously I am not saying we've arrived. But the undeniable fact is that life on Earth in 2013 AD is unspeakably better than life on Earth in 13 AD.

 

[Luke2427]

(I'm not molesting you, I actually like and respect you)

Respectfully ask, did Christ destroy the works of the devil or not?

Was Satan bound or not?

Were the idols of the Gentiles 'famished' or not?

Why are we not sacrificing our children over Niagara Falls now?

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, which is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, Rev 20

11 Jehovah will be terrible unto them; for he will famish all the gods of the earth; and men shall worship him, every one from his place, even all the isles of the nations. Zeph 2

8 he that doeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. To this end was the Son of God manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Excerpt from 'The Parousia' (1878), by James Stuart Russell
"Are we, then, to suppose that anything equivalent to this symbol, the binding and imprisoning of Satan, has actually taken place, and took place at the time indicated, viz. the close of the Jewish dispensation? We have no hesitation in answering in the affirmative, and we think there is the clearest warrant both in Scripture and in history for this conclusion.

No one will contend that the symbols in the vision require a literal or physical chaining of the dragon. Common sense will teach that all that is meant is the repression and restriction of satanic power during the period indicated. Now there seems no reason to doubt that before and during our Saviour’s incarnation there was an energy and activity of moral evil existing in the earth far exceeding anything that is now known among men. It is not unreasonable to suppose that the period of our Lord’s earthly life was a season of intense and unparalleled activity among the powers of darkness. If they knew that the champion of God, the Redeemer of mankind, was come in order ‘that he might destroy the works of the devil,’ there was cause for their alarm; and our Lord’s temptations in the wilderness, and the malignant opposition to Christ and His cause, everywhere ascribed in the New Testament to Satan, reveal both the knowledge of the adversary respecting the Saviour’s mission and his unceasing efforts to counteract it. In addition to this, the remarkable prevalence of the mysterious phenomenon of demoniacal possession in the time of Christ is a decisive proof of the presence and activity of a malefic spiritual influence, in a form and degree which to us is unknown, and to many even incredible. Unless, then, we are prepared to give up the reality of that mysterious influence, and resolve it into mere popular ignorance or delusion, we must admit that there has been a marked and decisive check to the power of Satan over men since the time of Christ. The same may be said respecting the prevalence of moral evil in that age of the world. Let any one consider what Rome was in the days of Nero, and what Jerusalem was in the closing period of the Jewish commonwealth, and he will at once concede the undeniable fact of an abnormal and portentous development of wickedness such as to us appears incredible. Juvenal and Tacitus will bear witness of Rome, and Josephus of Jerusalem; and it is not contrary to reason, while wholly agreeable to Revelation, to infer that such enormous and colossal vice betrays the operation of a satanic influence."

Things have gotten much better since Christ arrived on the scene.

Precisely.
___________

 

[Luke2427]

preachinjesus

Hello Pj



All postmill books I have looked at deny this quite emphatically.The know the outward reformation is not going to work.They all with one voice stress that new birth and the spread of the gospel is the only hope for mankind.

That is exactly right.

Again...the teaching I have seen says that by biblical conversion, eventually their are more Christian legislators,more christian voters, etc....society begins to be affected.
It is not based on the newspapers, ww2 or any of those factors at all.
PJ....let's say that Jesus does not return for 37,000 yrs.Many things you are thinking about could be much different by then.
It would take a revival of the churches here and in Europe, and continued growth of the churches in third world countries....but that is under God's control...not man paving the way with outward ,external christianizing, or moralizing goats and tares!

Dead on.

We might be in a downturn in our generation short term, but the postmill guys I have read point out how far the gospel has spread so far, from the first 120....at pentecost, to many countries worldwide.It is still a work in progress....

And I would even argue that though our nation might be in a spiritual slump and that Europe needs reviving, that WORLDWIDE Christianity may be experiencing the best days she's seen since Pentecost- at least since the Reformation.

And between you and I Icon, I believe the surge in the DoG in this country is an indicator that we may be on the verge of revival here.

Churches like David Platt's and Timothy Keller's are turning their cities upside down for Christ and sending out missionaries by the droves.

Pj....I am leaning toward postmill, or optimistic Amill at this point in my studies....

Jesus ....did not physically return to earth in 70ad.....but he did "come in Judgement" upon apostate Israel......fulfilling Deut 28-33....in Mt 20-25.... and most all of MT 24 was fulfilled at that time....in that the theocracy was destroyed ,and the Christian Israel...[Jesus as head of His church....elect remnant of Israel ,elect gentiles grafted in}

I believe He physically ...returns, comes back,...ON THE LAST DAY ...as he said in JN 6..... The rapture is the last day, followed by the White Throne Judgement,and the eternal state....Jesus is reigning NOW....from heaven, in the MIDST of His enemies...He reigns until He delivers the Kingdom up to the Father..

Bingo.

No...the events of Revelation were given primarily to the 7 churches instructing them as to a few main ideas....

1] where is Jesus now

2] what is he doing as Eternal High Priest

3]what about persecuted saints rev 6...10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

If you give the passages a read....as if it was a direct warning to the early church, to let them know that persecution was going to happen, but they were to remain faithful and understand that they still win in Jesus...
You can see how Mt 24 fits into this warning....the language about the sun, moon and stars, people being "marked" in jerusalem..were figures from the OT.....joel, 2,3 Isa 13, 34,Jer... ezk 9....

Revelation speaks of two women....the bride....and the great whore..
the faithful overcomers...and the whorish apostates.....
rev12 is an overview of the Nt age.....Jerusalem has become babylon, like earlier it was described as Sodom and egypt....

So...what is left???? the faithful proclamation of the gospel in the midst of scoffers....2 pet3.....a great harvest being brought in during the longsuffering of God ...bearing with sinful flesh ,until the last of the elect sheep is found...then comes the end:thumbs:

Nailed it.

You are welcome:wavey: Pj....I am not an expert on this by any means.I have found these things out while at one time opposing them.....

It takes much time and study to even know what the issues are...that is why many only dip their toes in the water,and run back to the blanket, rather then jump into the waves:wavey:

And the fact of the matter is that PJ does not know the issues. He's proven that. I HONESTLY do not mind debating these things. I do it all the time with knowledgeable people. But it does irk me when someone is SO VEHEMENT against a position the about which they make it evident they have almost NO knowledge.

 

[agedman]

I do not see any account of Christ returning after the millennium in the Scriptures. Verse 2 and 3 state the millennium is 1000 years. Verse 4, 5 and 6 speak that the FIRST resurrection is BEFORE the start of the millennium.


After verse 6 there is NO resurrection but the judgement of God. There is no resurrection, because all that Satan ever touched (the earth the heavens even the place of God's dwelling except the throne which apparently Satan never touched) are gone in a fervent heat.







Rev. 20:


Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.


4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.


7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


I am bothered that so many of those who desire to be amill or post mill seem to make allegorical or sometime even ignore the sequence presented in this Scriptures.


For a group that historically has taken the Scriptures as literally in salvation, how they can not take them literal in this matter is irrational.



How is it that they choose to do so has yet to be a part of my understanding.

 

[preachinjesus]

(I'm not molesting you, I actually like and respect you)

Well that is very kind, and the feelings are mutual.

Respectfully ask, did Christ destroy the works of the devil or not?

Was Satan bound or not?

Is Satan currently bound? Because last time I was in Africa I saw some pretty powerful spiritual warfare first hand.

For the Amillennialist position he is, however for those who take up a premillannialist position (like myself...and oddly most of the rest of this board though they seem to be quiet) we don't see that Revelation 20 is effectual now, but in the future.

Make no doubt about it, just as 1 Peter 5:8 says, Satan is active and continues to roam this world seeking whom he may devour. When Peter wrote this, he was talking about the reality of his present continuing through our future. The warning isn't made incidentally, but is a continuing action. That's why he uses the aorist in the verbs at the beginning of the verse.

Were the idols of the Gentiles 'famished' or not?

Seems to me we have plenty of idols still going around.

Why are we not sacrificing our children over Niagara Falls now?

We're still sacrificing children. In fact, we're sacrificing children at a higher rate than ever before.

It's called selective abortion and it happens at a rate of about 5,000,000 children a year. We sacrifice them, maybe not over the Niagara Falls, though I challenge you to show me where this occurred regularly in history and not one freak incident, but in sterile doctor's clinics and women's centers.

Maybe if we used guns it would startle us more.

Is there anyone on this board who wouldn't say that we're still sacrificing children at a higher rate than ever?

Things have gotten much better since Christ arrived on the scene.

So there's not human trafficking at rates higher than ever?
There hasn't been 100 years of wars and genocide that piled the victims of these things higher than ever before?
There hasn't been a massive shift towards secularism across the west?
There hasn't been a push away of the Church in the broader society?
Jesus hasn't regularly come under critical fire and claimed that He doesn't exist?

Your point, while I appreciate it, is really just conjectural. You say that things have gotten much better since Jesus' day but in what ways?

We have an epidemic of pornographic addictions.
We have an epidemic of legalized theft from the poor.
We have an epidemic of disease and poverty sweeping third world countries.
We have an epidemic of Christian persecution across the world.
We have an epidemic of premarital sex.
We have an epidemic of same sex partnerships leading to state sanctioned marriage.
We have an epidemic of idol worship known as materialism.
We have an epidemic...the list can go on and on.

Show me where the world is intrinsically better and where the Gospel is pushing back the darkness in such a way that the Kingdom of God is clearly being established not just in our hearts and minds but in our lands and laws.

Show me where we are seeing entire nations turning to Christ and their leaders proudly proclaiming the Kingdom of God is at hand.

Show me where in the first world we see this.

Show me where in the third world the prosperity heresy isn't the larger growing segment of Christianity.

Show me these things and repudiate the epidemics above. Because the world is not better for its days. Satan continues to roam this world without being bound. We see him and his actions across our lands.

Thanks for the reply.