Featured Post-mil is right

Well, the three greatest challenges to the post-mill position are these:

1. The idea of the immanent return of Jesus Christ at the eschaton that fills the NT eschatological scheme. That Jesus can return at any moment violates the idea of the post-mill position particularly in light of the world wars and global conflicts that afflict our modern age.

2. The utter lack of a post-millennial framework in Revelation. Things aren't getting better, things aren't going well, the earthly Kingdom isn't growing...in fact it is shrinking. Then the return of Christ at the parousia. Even with a less than linear appproach to the text the post-millennial position is quashed in light of the depictions of death and harassment that exist. Post-millennialists struggle to maintain a consisent biblical hermeneutic.

3. It fundamentally misunderstands God's Kingdom work as described by the NT.
Where ever God's Kingdom is described in the NT it is always something accomplished by the act and will of God. Postmillennialism sees God's Kingdom as something established by men that creates the opportunity for God to return. Thus, God is dependent upon mankind for His return and fulfillment of the Kingdom. I don't agree that this is a proper understanding of God's Kingdom nor His character.

The historical argument isn't effective for your position. Particularly following last century, the bloodiest century of history.

While I'll admit that the Church isn't smaller than it was 500 years ago, I will point out that the world is ten times larger population wise than it was 500 years ago. If we take even the most generous global population estimates there were only 500,000,000 people living in the world in 1700s. Now we have over 6,000,000,000. The issue at the center should be, what is the ratio of Christians to the world population. I'd say now its probably about the same, maybe around 45%. But how much of that is genetic conversion? So this is a moot point.

The larger picture of the Kingdom of God coming that is displayed in post-millennialism is that things are getting better and God's work is exploding across the globe. Taken to its logical conclusion the point of post-millennialism is that the return of Christ only comes about when the vast majority of the world population is Christian and active believers. Anybody that says that is a realistic option hasn't been to the Middle East, Africe, Western Europe, Asia, etc.

Post-millennialism requires a dramatically growing Church in the world alongside an increasingly better world while prohibiting the immanent return of Jesus Christ to the world.

I don't see that as a valid theological or NT option.

 

Didn't realize we had an alien from another world on this forum. What you're describing certainly isn't happening on planet earth I live on.

 

Why I believe this to be in error.


Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim holy convocations, these my feasts. Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work: it the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings. These the feasts of the LORD, holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.

In the fourteenth [day] of the first month at even the LORD'S passover.

And on the fifteenth day of the same month the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.

Notice the feasts [days] of the Lord are holy convocations.

The Passover is listed here on the fourteenth of the first month, yet is not said to be a holy convocation. ----- Why? Because that is the beginning point for the bring forth of the new creation of man and the kingdom of God.

Jesus the Lamb of God that takes away the sin (singular) of the world.
The sin of one man brought death to all men. That is what is being paid by the Passover Lamb.

Then begin the feast. The first contained two holy convocations. the 15th and the 21st.

The Passover was a preparation for the first holy convocation. They were to begin to remove leaven from their dwellings. Exactly what unleavened us. was it not the death of Christ? 1 Cor.5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: ---I believe the second holy convocation being having the leaven purged all our life by that shed blood of the Passover through confession of sins. 1 John 1:7,9
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The next feast, holy convocation came fifty days following the morrow after the Sabbath following the Passover. On the day of firstfruits after your weeks be out. Pentecost, the feast of weeks, the feast of firstfruits. On that morrow following the Sabbath following the Passover they brought a sheaf of the firstfruits of the harvest to the priest to be waved before the Lord to be accepted for them, but that day was not a holy convocation. That day was not the feast of firstfruits. Christ was the firstfruits of the dead and he ascended on that day to the Father to be accepted for us, yet it was not a holy convocation nor the feast of firstfruits.

The third feast [day] of the year the feast of firstfruits was the day the Holy Spirit was given, it was for showing; Romans 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. ----- That is the day God begin to call from the Jews and the Gentiles a people for his name. That is still going on today. Acts 15:8,14 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as unto us; Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

See part two.

 

Part two;


There are seven holy convocations, seven feast [days], three are past and there are still four to come.

Again Romans 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

The adoption, the redemption of our body will take place at the next feast [day] holy convocation. The fulfillment of; a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation. The feast of Trumpets. The establishment of the kingdom of God with spiritual beings 1 Cor. 15:49-54 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. ----- This kingdom will be established after the calling out of a people for the name of God. Acts 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

The next holy convocation feast day takes place shortly after that. What is the greatest hindrance to man on the earth to day? Is it not the presence of Satan. Does mankind being deceived by Satan the devil really have free will and is able to seek God? The day of Atonement. Read Lev. 16 and compare to
Revelation 20:1-3 That feast speaks of binding Satan so he cannot deceive the nations. The goat for Azazel is for the binding of Satan. Only then can man seek the Lord and those called for his name, which begins the next feast.

The feast of ingathering: A holy convocation The kingdom of God in full swing.
When all Israel shall be saved. Romans 11:25,26 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: --- and John 7:37 In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.--- The last feast day, Acts 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.


That is the way I understand the Mil. and the kingdom of God.

 

You haven't read much postmillennial theology if you believe this. Jesus' return is predicated upon mankind's creation of a utopia. Thus, in terms of God's planned return, it becomes more contigent on mankind's accomplishment rather than God's plan.

Post-millennialism, more than either of the two other millennial categories, denies immanence.

Whoa, hold here folks.

First of all, this is erroneous historically. The Jews weren't destroyed in AD 70. The Temple was destroyed and many were killed, but Judaism, and its Second Temple form existed for another couple of hundred years until the events following Bar Kokhba in AD 135. You simply don't understand the history here.

What do you do with the council of Jamnia (or Yavneh) in AD 70? What do you do with Kitos in AD 115? Then what do you do with the developments of the Mishnah and the Talmud, not to mention the Haggadah? How about Julian's attempts to rebuild in AD 363?

The genetic link with Israel was consolidated into the tribe of Judah (thus Judaism) following the Babylonian Captivity, but it continues through until today. Though spiritual Israel of the OT ceased to exist after Nehemiah's restoration of Temple worship, the political Israel of today is that of the Jewish people which can be (should be) understood as related to the Second Temple period.

Either you're entirely ignorant of the history or you're presenting a poor version of it.

The only theologians who accept this are preterists. Preterism isn't postmillennialism.

You are conflating the two eschatological concepts dangerously and it is presenting an invalid form of post-millennialism.

So are you really saying Jesus return at AD 70?

Find me five legitimate commentaries authored by reputable scholars with PhDs in New Testament who contend that Revelation is best understood by a postmillennial framework.

Do it, find them.

What does a postmillennial framework even look like? Everything becomes fictional.

What world do you live in?

How many people died in wars over the last 100 years versus the previous 8,000?

How many people are trapped in human trafficking right now?

How many people are suffering from oppressive political regimes?

How many people are living in bone crushing poverty?

This is 100% false.

The first century had plenty of words to describe this and they're used the NT.

The amount of people murdered in genocide and holocaust over the last 100 years has been more than all the people who lived since the first century.

Again, what world do you live in because this isn't true.

The United States represents 5% of the world population.

It isn't a fair barometer for anything.

Just because you've been blessed with abundance isn't the metric anyone should use to describe the world's current state. You need to do more research.

So you're saying Europe is an effective metric for gauging how widespread this Gospel proclamation is going?

How's the Church doing in Europe again?

What's the cultural status of Christianity?

How many people are being saved in droves in Europe? How fast is secularization being pushed back? How fast is biblical Christianity growing again?

Which are important ministries, but fail to take in the perspective of the total global picture of poverty, death, and disease not to mention the numbers of tortured, abused, and persecuted individuals across the world.

You can't be serious. You literally cannot be serious. I'm guessing this whole thread is an excuse to start a debate at this point.

This is an ancillary point to the discussion.

Again, this is conjecture. How's the Church doing in Europe again?

Incluidng the rape, torture, enslavement, genocide, and systematic persecution of ethnic and religious minorities?

You are talking about something you don't know.

I'll reply to more later, but you're going to have to show us that your reality represents the truthfulness of the world situation.

Also, your understanding of first century Jewish life is not well informed. Please answer those underlying issues so we can proceed.

What world are you living in again?

 

preachinjesus

I was taught this years ago,but it is not accurate.
Man does not create a utopia....man is used by God to preach the gospel worldwide.God effects salvation worldwide.

http://www.christianciv.com/eschatology_bs_Append.htm.

Days of Vengeance......Chilton

These questions have nothing to do with the issue.

.

 

Salvation contingent upon mankind creating a better world that is increasingly to a stage of utopia.

This is part of the standard definition of postmillennialism.

Chilton isn't a credible scholar, he's not a scholar...he's a theological hack with a gifted degree.

Respectfully disagree, the contention is that the world is increasingly a better place. My questions are, in light of these on going and growing travesties, that the world in fact isn't getting better. Instead, it is getting much, much worse.

So, what about some of my questions as it relates to when Jesus is coming? Has He already come? Are all the events of Revelation pointing to postmillennialism?

Thanks

 

(I'm not molesting you, I actually like and respect you)

Respectfully ask, did Christ destroy the works of the devil or not?

Was Satan bound or not?

Were the idols of the Gentiles 'famished' or not?

Why are we not sacrificing our children over Niagara Falls now?

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, which is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, Rev 20

11 Jehovah will be terrible unto them; for he will famish all the gods of the earth; and men shall worship him, every one from his place, even all the isles of the nations. Zeph 2

8 he that doeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. To this end was the Son of God manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Excerpt from 'The Parousia' (1878), by James Stuart Russell
"Are we, then, to suppose that anything equivalent to this symbol, the binding and imprisoning of Satan, has actually taken place, and took place at the time indicated, viz. the close of the Jewish dispensation? We have no hesitation in answering in the affirmative, and we think there is the clearest warrant both in Scripture and in history for this conclusion.

No one will contend that the symbols in the vision require a literal or physical chaining of the dragon. Common sense will teach that all that is meant is the repression and restriction of satanic power during the period indicated. Now there seems no reason to doubt that before and during our Saviour’s incarnation there was an energy and activity of moral evil existing in the earth far exceeding anything that is now known among men. It is not unreasonable to suppose that the period of our Lord’s earthly life was a season of intense and unparalleled activity among the powers of darkness. If they knew that the champion of God, the Redeemer of mankind, was come in order ‘that he might destroy the works of the devil,’ there was cause for their alarm; and our Lord’s temptations in the wilderness, and the malignant opposition to Christ and His cause, everywhere ascribed in the New Testament to Satan, reveal both the knowledge of the adversary respecting the Saviour’s mission and his unceasing efforts to counteract it. In addition to this, the remarkable prevalence of the mysterious phenomenon of demoniacal possession in the time of Christ is a decisive proof of the presence and activity of a malefic spiritual influence, in a form and degree which to us is unknown, and to many even incredible. Unless, then, we are prepared to give up the reality of that mysterious influence, and resolve it into mere popular ignorance or delusion, we must admit that there has been a marked and decisive check to the power of Satan over men since the time of Christ. The same may be said respecting the prevalence of moral evil in that age of the world. Let any one consider what Rome was in the days of Nero, and what Jerusalem was in the closing period of the Jewish commonwealth, and he will at once concede the undeniable fact of an abnormal and portentous development of wickedness such as to us appears incredible. Juvenal and Tacitus will bear witness of Rome, and Josephus of Jerusalem; and it is not contrary to reason, while wholly agreeable to Revelation, to infer that such enormous and colossal vice betrays the operation of a satanic influence."

Things have gotten much better since Christ arrived on the scene.

 

preachinjesus

Hello Pj

All postmill books I have looked at deny this quite emphatically.The know the outward reformation is not going to work.They all with one voice stress that new birth and the spread of the gospel is the only hope for mankind.

Again...the teaching I have seen says that by biblical conversion, eventually their are more Christian legislators,more christian voters, etc....society begins to be affected.
It is not based on the newspapers, ww2 or any of those factors at all.
PJ....let's say that Jesus does not return for 37,000 yrs.Many things you are thinking about could be much different by then.
It would take a revival of the churches here and in Europe, and continued growth of the churches in third world countries....but that is under God's control...not man paving the way with outward ,external christianizing, or moralizing goats and tares!

I have only read two of his books.....so I am not able to judge his body of work....but I have not seen anyone critique Days of Vengeance...effectively.
He was very through in matching OT texts to Nt historical fulfillments, and did suggest a framework for rev 1-19 that would show how most things were fulfilled ,even if he has not got everything right, he addressed tons more Ot scriptures than most other eschatological writers I have read.

We might be in a downturn in our generation short term, but the postmill guys I have read point out how far the gospel has spread so far, from the first 120....at pentecost, to many countries worldwide.It is still a work in progress....

?

Pj....I am leaning toward postmill, or optimistic Amill at this point in my studies....

Jesus ....did not physically return to earth in 70ad.....but he did "come in Judgement" upon apostate Israel......fulfilling Deut 28-33....in Mt 20-25.... and most all of MT 24 was fulfilled at that time....in that the theocracy was destroyed ,and the Christian Israel...[Jesus as head of His church....elect remnant of Israel ,elect gentiles grafted in}

I believe He physically ...returns, comes back,...ON THE LAST DAY ...as he said in JN 6..... The rapture is the last day, followed by the White Throne Judgement,and the eternal state....Jesus is reigning NOW....from heaven, in the MIDST of His enemies...He reigns until He delivers the Kingdom up to the Father..

No...the events of Revelation were given primarily to the 7 churches instructing them as to a few main ideas....

1] where is Jesus now

2] what is he doing as Eternal High Priest

3]what about persecuted saints rev 6...10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

If you give the passages a read....as if it was a direct warning to the early church, to let them know that persecution was going to happen, but they were to remain faithful and understand that they still win in Jesus...
You can see how Mt 24 fits into this warning....the language about the sun, moon and stars, people being "marked" in jerusalem..were figures from the OT.....joel, 2,3 Isa 13, 34,Jer... ezk 9....

Revelation speaks of two women....the bride....and the great whore..
the faithful overcomers...and the whorish apostates.....
rev12 is an overview of the Nt age.....Jerusalem has become babylon, like earlier it was described as Sodom and egypt....

So...what is left???? the faithful proclamation of the gospel in the midst of scoffers....2 pet3.....a great harvest being brought in during the longsuffering of God ...bearing with sinful flesh ,until the last of the elect sheep is found...then comes the end:thumbs:

You are welcome:wavey: Pj....I am not an expert on this by any means.I have found these things out while at one time opposing them.....

It takes much time and study to even know what the issues are...that is why many only dip their toes in the water,and run back to the blanket, rather then jump into the waves:wavey:

 

I know this country is getting better and better. Don't know if it is because of the church or maybe it's the current political administration. I just know it is better and better.






Sarcasm

 

I do not see any account of Christ returning after the millennium in the Scriptures. Verse 2 and 3 state the millennium is 1000 years. Verse 4, 5 and 6 speak that the FIRST resurrection is BEFORE the start of the millennium.


After verse 6 there is NO resurrection but the judgement of God. There is no resurrection, because all that Satan ever touched (the earth the heavens even the place of God's dwelling except the throne which apparently Satan never touched) are gone in a fervent heat.







Rev. 20:


Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.


4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.


7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


I am bothered that so many of those who desire to be amill or post mill seem to make allegorical or sometime even ignore the sequence presented in this Scriptures.


For a group that historically has taken the Scriptures as literally in salvation, how they can not take them literal in this matter is irrational.



How is it that they choose to do so has yet to be a part of my understanding.

 

Well that is very kind, and the feelings are mutual.

Is Satan currently bound? Because last time I was in Africa I saw some pretty powerful spiritual warfare first hand.

For the Amillennialist position he is, however for those who take up a premillannialist position (like myself...and oddly most of the rest of this board though they seem to be quiet) we don't see that Revelation 20 is effectual now, but in the future.

Make no doubt about it, just as 1 Peter 5:8 says, Satan is active and continues to roam this world seeking whom he may devour. When Peter wrote this, he was talking about the reality of his present continuing through our future. The warning isn't made incidentally, but is a continuing action. That's why he uses the aorist in the verbs at the beginning of the verse.

Seems to me we have plenty of idols still going around.

We're still sacrificing children. In fact, we're sacrificing children at a higher rate than ever before.

It's called selective abortion and it happens at a rate of about 5,000,000 children a year. We sacrifice them, maybe not over the Niagara Falls, though I challenge you to show me where this occurred regularly in history and not one freak incident, but in sterile doctor's clinics and women's centers.

Maybe if we used guns it would startle us more.

Is there anyone on this board who wouldn't say that we're still sacrificing children at a higher rate than ever?

So there's not human trafficking at rates higher than ever?
There hasn't been 100 years of wars and genocide that piled the victims of these things higher than ever before?
There hasn't been a massive shift towards secularism across the west?
There hasn't been a push away of the Church in the broader society?
Jesus hasn't regularly come under critical fire and claimed that He doesn't exist?

Your point, while I appreciate it, is really just conjectural. You say that things have gotten much better since Jesus' day but in what ways?

We have an epidemic of pornographic addictions.
We have an epidemic of legalized theft from the poor.
We have an epidemic of disease and poverty sweeping third world countries.
We have an epidemic of Christian persecution across the world.
We have an epidemic of premarital sex.
We have an epidemic of same sex partnerships leading to state sanctioned marriage.
We have an epidemic of idol worship known as materialism.
We have an epidemic...the list can go on and on.

Show me where the world is intrinsically better and where the Gospel is pushing back the darkness in such a way that the Kingdom of God is clearly being established not just in our hearts and minds but in our lands and laws.

Show me where we are seeing entire nations turning to Christ and their leaders proudly proclaiming the Kingdom of God is at hand.

Show me where in the first world we see this.

Show me where in the third world the prosperity heresy isn't the larger growing segment of Christianity.

Show me these things and repudiate the epidemics above. Because the world is not better for its days. Satan continues to roam this world without being bound. We see him and his actions across our lands.

Thanks for the reply.