Featured Post-mil is right

There's no challenge at all for Lukes' 'conflation' of the two issues, in fact, there's very much 'overlap' of interpretations among ALL four views of Revelation, ESPECIALLY between Postmil, Amil, and Preterism, and I know that you know that already, and I'm beginning to think you're losing objectivity here.:

"Preterism Unites

Preterism in some form had advocates among the earliest Christians such as James the Just, Mathetes, and Clement of Alexandria. However, it was Eusebius who first wrote the most complete work of systematic Preterism. As a backlash against some of the dispensational folly in much of evangelicalism today, Preterism has made huge inroads in Reformed circles. As a result, both Amillennialism and Postmillennialism have made huge strides toward becoming one eschatology. Postmillennialists have long since abandoned their chiliastic roots. Very few believe in a literal millennium today. Much of Amillennialism has adopted a more optimistic view of the gospel, realizing that "tribulation" of the First Century saints was the greatest that shall be faced by the church. The cause for this optimistic view of the future was a return to Scripture as the source for eschatology as opposed to newspapers.

Therefore, modern postmillennialism and “optimistic Amillennialism" are almost indistinguishable, yet there are still some differences, particular with nature and role of God's kingdom in this world, as well as the future state of the world at the Second Advent...."

 

Nazi Germany is my first witness to rebut your contention that Satan can no longer deceive nations. I would call Communist Russia as my second witness. Consider the number of people that were killed because, as you say, "Satan could no longer deceive the nations."

As to your list of prophecies which you contend have been fulfilled. Perhaps. But they could also be future prophecies that will be fulfilled to the fullest extent.

 

Oh baloney, I suppose you didn't understand the gist of post #51. Once again, quoting Edersheim:

"In the New Testament prophecies are not made to point to facts, but facts to point back to prophecies."

Concerning the curses/plagues of Lev 26/Dt 28, Hitler/Nazi Germany was the fulfillment of prophecy to the hilt, here also:

And the ten horns which thou sawest, and the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and shall burn her utterly with fire. Rev 17:16

There's not a doubt in my mind that Hitler/Nazi Germany was the personification of one of those ten horns.

 

preachinjesus

Not a problem.I am travelling west,so it takes me time to get back to it sometimes.

Looking back....working through Edwards work was one of the most helpful things I have read and looked at. It tied together all 66 books for me,in a way that had eluded me.My understanding was very fragmented before that time...His postmillenialism was a bit of a distraction back then as i had not been exposed to that kind of idea and teaching before.
Having worked through Things to Come by Dwight Pentecost....it was quite a confusing time.

I see in the postmill writers what seems to me to match the view of Kingdom living ...NOW.....in the already portion that has been Inaugurated in the Incarnation.

The other views seem to encourage-world flight- which i believe to be exceedingly sinful.:thumbs: I do not think they set out to do it,but we live based on what we believe...so they drift into it.

I will continue to offer up some postmill ideas here because I think it helps thinking these things through. Which "picture " we get in the NT.depends on how that list of texts is understood, then and now.I will develop this in awhile. I spoke of it earlier where i see some of the texts as a house of cards that rely on each other to come out with the premill view.If some of the cards are removed...it will not stand.

This also comes down to those lists of scriptures we have alluded to.

 

pt2-

Postmill understanding implies it takes time.....much time for all the scriptures to be fulfilled. the parables of the mustard seed ,and leaven are used often to suggest this long extended period of growth.

Here is a bit from Ken Gentry:

 

Icon,
I have a couple of questions for you, for the purpose of learning, not debate. If I understand post mill correctly, there would be no literal "Rapture" or Tribulation, is that correct? Also, don't most who believe in covenant theology also exclude the "Rapture," Tribulation, and the 1000 year reign from being literal events?

 

Hello Sn,

The way i understand things...both the postmill and Amill see a literal rapture....at the last day:wavey:
jn6
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

As for the tribulation....they believe the Great Tribulation happened literally in Israel between 66-70 ad....the theocracy and holy place were destroyed,

The premill brothers take mt 24, lk17-21 and try to put it future.
the postand amill brothers say...all these things already existed and took place,ie, there was a temple, in the holy place,and an antichrist who destroyed it and made the abomonation of desolation...THEN.

Premill wants to reconstruct a temple where the muslim dome of the rock mosque is, re-institute earthly jerusalem as the holy place, then have a future anti-christ break the covenant after 3.5 yrs,and re-create the great tribulation....

heaven and the heavenly Jerusalem is Now the Holy Place:wavey:

 

Lightweight.

Darwinism is perhaps the best evidence of the loosing of Satan. That we are at the end of the Millennium.

 

There are. I imagine they're the vast majority as well, but, as ITL said they may be rather disinterested in debating. For my part....I am ill-equipped to rejoinder most arguments because although I know "MY" system (dispy pre-mil) as well, but no better than, the next guy, I know hardly a thing about the alternative views. I suspect that's true of most around here. Of a gazillion Baptist Churches in my local area....I am hard pressed to find one that isn't Dispy Pre-mil. I just read these threads and learn from them. You're doing a great job carrying the ball though.

If I'm not mistaken, I detect that you are "Historic Pre-mil"...(like Ladd). Honestly, I don't even know the difference between that and Dispy Pre-mil. LOL! :laugh: I only know that I essentially agree with most of what they teach.

 

:thumbsup::thumbs:

Darbyism/Dispensationalism was 'loosed' upon us in the 19th century also.

 

Excuse me but werent you raised up that way..... how have you come to that conclusion in your old age? :smilewinkgrin:

 

They are not even remotely comparable.....This is laughable. Even if false...."Dispensationalism" isn't even in the same category as Darwinism.

 

Did he say they were?

 

Darwinism/Darbyism/Dispensationalism - the big 'D', for Deception.

 

Wow....to some folks, them's fighting words!

 

He placed them in a comparable category, and quite intentionally, yes.

 

Found this online today...looking at the different views:

http://soliton.ae.gatech.edu/people/dhodges/papers/ESCHAT.pdf

 

Icon.... thanks for that link:wavey::

Have only perused it so far, but will read at length as time permits. This looks like a good intro. for discussion about the alternative viewpoints.

 

You are welcome....I just glanced at it...but it seems somewhat helpful....

When someone holds to one view they squirm and cringe when a critique is offered...but healthy growth takes time and struggle sometimes.

The writer seemed to be objective:thumbsup::thumbsup:

There is much written in scripture about the future.I find it exciting and challenging.

 

From David Chilton...Days of Vengeance...