Post-mil is right

[kyredneck]

...Preterism is a separate eschatological category. It is an interpretive matrix that informs other positions as well.

There are some premillennialists who are partial preterists.

The challenge for your position is that you've conflated the two things...

...Preterism is a separate eschatological category. It is an interpretive matrix that informs other positions as well.

There are some premillennialists who are partial preterists.

The challenge for your position is that you've conflated the two things....

There's no challenge at all for Lukes' 'conflation' of the two issues, in fact, there's very much 'overlap' of interpretations among ALL four views of Revelation, ESPECIALLY between Postmil, Amil, and Preterism, and I know that you know that already, and I'm beginning to think you're losing objectivity here.:

"Preterism Unites

Preterism in some form had advocates among the earliest Christians such as James the Just, Mathetes, and Clement of Alexandria. However, it was Eusebius who first wrote the most complete work of systematic Preterism. As a backlash against some of the dispensational folly in much of evangelicalism today, Preterism has made huge inroads in Reformed circles. As a result, both Amillennialism and Postmillennialism have made huge strides toward becoming one eschatology. Postmillennialists have long since abandoned their chiliastic roots. Very few believe in a literal millennium today. Much of Amillennialism has adopted a more optimistic view of the gospel, realizing that "tribulation" of the First Century saints was the greatest that shall be faced by the church. The cause for this optimistic view of the future was a return to Scripture as the source for eschatology as opposed to newspapers.

Therefore, modern postmillennialism and “optimistic Amillennialism" are almost indistinguishable, yet there are still some differences, particular with nature and role of God's kingdom in this world, as well as the future state of the world at the Second Advent...."

 

[InTheLight]

No, the idea presented in the scriptures is that Satan was no longer able to deceive the nations:

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, which is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
3 and cast him into the abyss, and shut it, and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years should be finished: after this he must be loosed for a little time. Rev 20


The strong man was bound and his goods were spoiled.

Nazi Germany is my first witness to rebut your contention that Satan can no longer deceive nations. I would call Communist Russia as my second witness. Consider the number of people that were killed because, as you say, "Satan could no longer deceive the nations."

As to your list of prophecies which you contend have been fulfilled. Perhaps. But they could also be future prophecies that will be fulfilled to the fullest extent.

 

[kyredneck]

Nazi Germany is my first witness to rebut your contention that Satan can no longer deceive nations. I would call Communist Russia as my second witness. Consider the number of people that were killed because, as you say, "Satan could no longer deceive the nations."...

Oh baloney, I suppose you didn't understand the gist of post #51. Once again, quoting Edersheim:

"In the New Testament prophecies are not made to point to facts, but facts to point back to prophecies."

Concerning the curses/plagues of Lev 26/Dt 28, Hitler/Nazi Germany was the fulfillment of prophecy to the hilt, here also:

And the ten horns which thou sawest, and the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and shall burn her utterly with fire. Rev 17:16

There's not a doubt in my mind that Hitler/Nazi Germany was the personification of one of those ten horns.

 

[Iconoclast]

preachinjesus

Apologies for the brief delay, I wanted to find time to give these posts the appropriate attention.

Not a problem.I am travelling west,so it takes me time to get back to it sometimes.

Well if you're going to develop a thorough understanding of postmillennialism, Edwards is certainly a great help. His coherency, as you mentioned, is certainly helpful.

Looking back....working through Edwards work was one of the most helpful things I have read and looked at. It tied together all 66 books for me,in a way that had eluded me.My understanding was very fragmented before that time...His postmillenialism was a bit of a distraction back then as i had not been exposed to that kind of idea and teaching before.
Having worked through Things to Come by Dwight Pentecost....it was quite a confusing time.

This would be a good articulation of what postmillennialism expects.

I see in the postmill writers what seems to me to match the view of Kingdom living ...NOW.....in the already portion that has been Inaugurated in the Incarnation.

The other views seem to encourage-world flight- which i believe to be exceedingly sinful.:thumbs: I do not think they set out to do it,but we live based on what we believe...so they drift into it.

However, I would point out that the picture of the eschatological return that is given in the New Testament is anything but a push towards utopia.

I will continue to offer up some postmill ideas here because I think it helps thinking these things through. Which "picture " we get in the NT.depends on how that list of texts is understood, then and now.I will develop this in awhile. I spoke of it earlier where i see some of the texts as a house of cards that rely on each other to come out with the premill view.If some of the cards are removed...it will not stand.

This is one of the greatest challenges to the postmillennial position. How can we be expecting things to get better and better, when Christ's return is predicated upon things getting worse and worse as described in Scripture?

This also comes down to those lists of scriptures we have alluded to.

Of course you'll need to figure out what to do with the continual decline depicted in Revelation. [/QUOTE

Most all of it 1-19 has occured already.....somethings still to happen

Unless you make Revelation 19 & 20 about Jesus' victory on the Cross, and the rest of the text from Revelation 4-18 about a historical reconstructionism of the spiritualist framework, you have a bit of a challenge.

Revelation 6,and 12 are key passages with an overview of the conflict,and a view toward the overcomers.

I will be more detailed at the end of the day,just taking dinner break now.

One of the keys here is that from Revelation 4 - 19 you have things getting progressively worse and worse with remarkably terrorizing pictures. As the Seal, Trumpet, and Bowl Judgments are unless onto humanity the pictures given are not spiritual but are, in fact, physical.

The symbols had literal fulfillment in Israel.Apostate Israel.

Jesus returns at the worst moment of the conflict and redeems His Church.

Or....he is with His church in and through the persecution,and is longsuffering with the wicked,until he redeems all of His Sheep,as not one will be lost.he is not willing that any of them perish...he saves each and everyone

I just don't see that we are in the millennium now.

I will work on that

PJ let me say this as I have said several times before.I am okay with whatever God has designed.If I do not finish this dinner in Portage Wis. tonight ...but get raptured out it will be all good with me:thumbs:

I notice however that every christian that has lived before us and left their body to be with the Lord...did so no matter which calendar they held to.
So individual eschatology was most important. I believe it is helpful,and needful to study these things out with a view to live each day to God's glory and to serve at full strength.....no coasting for Jesus and hanging on by a thread until we get rescued.

And I think this is where we see a limited horizon on his part, and the part of so many who advocate the postmillennial position like he does. History in fact shows us that things continually got worse, and not just in Asia Minor, following AD 70.

The Bar Kohkba Rebellion being one of the key instances. Having substantial work in the history of this phase, I don't know how anyone can look at the evidence (historically) from AD 70 and through the early 700s and see that things increasingly got better.

Perhaps, if you agree that the arrival and institutionalization of the Roman Catholic brought a new revival of the Gospel across the world, then we can say things got better.

As far as these historical events....things get worse before they get better.
I still believe we are the early church.What if we are just beginning to really gear up for a great harvest of souls in the years to come,as Christ will have Dominion worldwide....
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

28 For the kingdom is the Lord's: and he is the governor among the nations.

29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

I will start part two here,so I do not get cut-off:wavey:

 

[Iconoclast]

pt2-

However, I don't see things having gotten better following AD 70. In fact, I would say for Christians, things got substantially worse. The Neronic Persecution was nothing like subsequent ones in terms of extent of reach geographically. The Diocletian Persecution alone saw over 20,000 Christians murdered for their belief.

So, I just don't see that things had gotten better following AD 70.

Postmill understanding implies it takes time.....much time for all the scriptures to be fulfilled. the parables of the mustard seed ,and leaven are used often to suggest this long extended period of growth.

Here is a bit from Ken Gentry:

Jeremiah foresees the day when no one will even remember the ark
of the covenant, but in which “all the nations will be gathered before” the
“throne of the Lord” (Jer 3:16–17). He envisions a time in which the historical
enemies of God’s people will be blessed, including Moab (Jer
48:47), Ammon (Jer 49:6), and Elam (Jer 49:39). This matches a dramatic
prophecy in Isaiah:
In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrians
will come into Egypt and the Egyptians into Assyria, and the Egyptians
will worship with the Assyrians. In that day Israel will be the third
party with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing in the midst of the earth, whom
the Lord of hosts has blessed, saying, “Blessed is Egypt My people, and
Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel My inheritance.” (Isa 19:23–25)
Many other prophecies foresee a future of worldwide blessing. Daniel
7:14 presents a vision of the future in which “to Him was given dominion,
/ Glory and a kingdom, / That all the peoples, nations, and men of every
language / Might serve Him. / His dominion is an everlasting dominion /
Which will not pass away; / And His kingdom is one / Which will not be
destroyed.” Amos 9:12 mentions “all the nations who are called by My
name.” Those days will witness abundant harvests and prosperity (Amos
9:13). Micah 5:4 (another Christmas passage, see v. 2) promises that
Christ “will be great / To the ends of the earth.” Habakkuk 2:14 declares
that “the earth will be filled / With the knowledge of the glory of the
Lord, / As the waters cover the sea.” Zechariah 9:9–10 presents Christ,
whose “dominion will be from sea to sea, / And from the River to the
ends of the earth.” Later he states: “And the Lord will be king over all the
earth; in that day the Lord will be the only one, and His name the only
one” (Zech 14:9). Malachi 1:11 declares that “My name will be great
among the nations, and in every place incense is going to be offered to
My name, and a grain offering that is pure; for My name will be great
Ch. 3: The Prophets and the Postmillennial Hope 21
among the nations.” On and on I could go: the prophets are filled with
optimistic expectations.
Isaiah 2:2-4
One of Isaiah’s earliest prophecies breathes hope for God’s victory in
the world — just as does the protoevangelium, the Abrahamic Covenant,
and the messianic psalms. This passage reads:
Now it will come about that
In the last days, / The mountain of the house of the Lord / Will be established
as the chief of the mountains, / And will be raised above the hills; / And all the
nations will stream to it. / And many peoples will come and say, “Come, let
us go up to the mountain of the Lord, / To the house of the God of Jacob; /
That He may teach us concerning His ways, / And that we may walk in His
paths.” / For the law will go forth from Zion, / And the word of the Lord from
Jerusalem. / And He will judge between the nations, / And will render
decisions for many peoples; / And they will hammer their swords into plowshares,
and their spears into pruning hooks. / Nation will not lift up sword
against nation, / And never again will they learn war.
Here in Isaiah 2 (Micah repeats this prophecy in Mic 4:1–3) we learn
that the “last days” shall witness the universally successful influence of
the gospel. As a consequence of the spread of the gospel, history will
experience widespread faith in God, righteousness on the personal and
social levels, and international peace and prosperity on the cultural and
political levels. Significantly, we note once again that this is to transpire
before the Consummation. Isaiah indicates the “last days” will be the era
witnessing these things — not some era after the last days. “In the last
days” (Isa 2:2) means “during.”
According to the New Testament the “last days” begin in the first
century (1 Cor 10:11; Heb 9:26; 1 John 2:18; 1 Pet 1:20). In fact, the
Spirit’s outpouring at Pentecost formally initiates the “last days,” for
Peter explains: “This is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
‘And it shall be in the last days” (Acts 2:16–17a). Theologically-speaking,
then, history is divided between the former days (before Christ) and the
“last days” (after Christ): “God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in
the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has
spoken to us in His Son” (Heb 1:1–2a). The “last days” cover the remaining
days of temporal history from the first century until the second
coming of Christ, which will be “the end” (1 Cor 15:24; cp. Matt 13:39–40,
49), when Christ resurrects and judges the dead (John 6:39, 44, 54; 11:24

 

[saturneptune]

Icon,
I have a couple of questions for you, for the purpose of learning, not debate. If I understand post mill correctly, there would be no literal "Rapture" or Tribulation, is that correct? Also, don't most who believe in covenant theology also exclude the "Rapture," Tribulation, and the 1000 year reign from being literal events?

 

[Iconoclast]

Icon,
I have a couple of questions for you, for the purpose of learning, not debate. If I understand post mill correctly, there would be no literal "Rapture" or Tribulation, is that correct? Also, don't most who believe in covenant theology also exclude the "Rapture," Tribulation, and the 1000 year reign from being literal events?

Hello Sn,

The way i understand things...both the postmill and Amill see a literal rapture....at the last day:wavey:
jn6
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

As for the tribulation....they believe the Great Tribulation happened literally in Israel between 66-70 ad....the theocracy and holy place were destroyed,

The premill brothers take mt 24, lk17-21 and try to put it future.
the postand amill brothers say...all these things already existed and took place,ie, there was a temple, in the holy place,and an antichrist who destroyed it and made the abomonation of desolation...THEN.

Premill wants to reconstruct a temple where the muslim dome of the rock mosque is, re-institute earthly jerusalem as the holy place, then have a future anti-christ break the covenant after 3.5 yrs,and re-create the great tribulation....

heaven and the heavenly Jerusalem is Now the Holy Place:wavey:

 

[Aaron]

Nazi Germany is my first witness to rebut your contention that Satan can no longer deceive nations.

Lightweight.

Darwinism is perhaps the best evidence of the loosing of Satan. That we are at the end of the Millennium.

 

[Inspector Javert]

I thought there were more premillennialists than me around here.

There are. I imagine they're the vast majority as well, but, as ITL said they may be rather disinterested in debating. For my part....I am ill-equipped to rejoinder most arguments because although I know "MY" system (dispy pre-mil) as well, but no better than, the next guy, I know hardly a thing about the alternative views. I suspect that's true of most around here. Of a gazillion Baptist Churches in my local area....I am hard pressed to find one that isn't Dispy Pre-mil. I just read these threads and learn from them. You're doing a great job carrying the ball though.

If I'm not mistaken, I detect that you are "Historic Pre-mil"...(like Ladd). Honestly, I don't even know the difference between that and Dispy Pre-mil. LOL! :laugh: I only know that I essentially agree with most of what they teach.

 

[kyredneck]

Lightweight.

Darwinism is perhaps the best evidence of the loosing of Satan. That we are at the end of the Millennium.

:thumbsup::thumbs:

Darbyism/Dispensationalism was 'loosed' upon us in the 19th century also.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

:thumbsup::thumbs:

Darbyism/Dispensationalism was 'loosed' upon us in the 19th century also.

Excuse me but werent you raised up that way..... how have you come to that conclusion in your old age? :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Inspector Javert]

:thumbsup::thumbs:

Darbyism/Dispensationalism was 'loosed' upon us in the 19th century also.

They are not even remotely comparable.....This is laughable. Even if false...."Dispensationalism" isn't even in the same category as Darwinism.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

They are not even remotely comparable.....This is laughable. Even if false...."Dispensationalism" isn't even in the same category as Darwinism.

Did he say they were?

 

[kyredneck]

Darwinism/Darbyism/Dispensationalism - the big 'D', for Deception.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Darwinism/Darbyism/Dispensationalism - the big 'D', for Deception.

Wow....to some folks, them's fighting words!

 

[Inspector Javert]

Did he say they were?

He placed them in a comparable category, and quite intentionally, yes.

 

[Iconoclast]

Found this online today...looking at the different views:

http://soliton.ae.gatech.edu/people/dhodges/papers/ESCHAT.pdf

Orthodox Views of Eschatology Dewey H. Hodges, Ph.D.
IV: Postmillennialism
Page 16
Greg Bahnsen, Ken Gentry. Some of the more conservative Presbyterians are postmill as are manychurches of the Reformed tradition.
“
Reconstructionists are theonomic postmills, which means they emphasize Christian responsibility and the place of the Law of God in society. The postmill view is sometimes difficult to distinguish in early writings from the amill view. The distinguishing
factors are the optimism of postmills, the way Kingdom passages such as Isaiah 65 are interpreted, and the chronological interpretation of Revelation 19
–
21.
The Last Days:
Most postmills believe that last days can be, according to context, the last days
of the Old Covenant era or all that time between the first and second comings of Jesus. There will be suffering throughout this time, but during this time there is an ever increasing outpouring of the Holy Spirit leading to a larger and larger percentage of believers in the world and spreading of Christian influence.
How We Should Live:
The world will inevitably become more and more Christianized prior to the
second coming. Jesus said to watch, pray, and occupy until He comes. The most important activities in the minds of postmills are the preaching of the gospel and edification of the Church, and discipling the nations through theonomy (institution of biblical laws). They believe that the Church will be successful in evangelizing the world. Postmills are strongly in favor of political involvement, although they stress that politics cannot save anyone. They have historically purposefully and successfully engaged in activities which have longterm goals. Many postmills would see the Law as the standard for civil law and ethics (theonomy). Postmills are strict biblicists who view the Bible as the standard for all ethics and morality as well as the basis for how one should live in every area of
life. They have faith in the ultimate success for longterm efforts toward cultural reform through theonomy. The only date-setting I know of among postmills was an isolated (misguided) prediction of when the Millennium was coming in the early 1900s (recall that this precedes the second coming of Christ). Postmills consider themselves in the Kingdom of God now, and they expect the Kingdom to continue to expand until it fills the earth with the Glory of the Lord. They emphasize that Jesus will never have any more authority than He has now (Matthew 28:19-20). Churches
which hold the postmill view talk a great deal about revival and world-wide outpourings of the Holy Spirit. They emphasize the “ Church triumphant.”
They tend to be very critical of the pessimism of the other views (pessimillennialism versus their optimillennialism), but they have less antagonism
for amill teachings than they do for premillennialism of any kind. They believe that although
dispensationalism is not heresy, with its“any minute rapture” mentality, unscriptural view of Israel,and“wooden” literalism, it is still one of the most damaging teachings to ever hit the Church.
Weaknesses:
The postmill optimism is seen by critics as being unrealistic. Many who think the
world is getting worse and worse have harshly criticized and derided postmills. Such criticism,
however, lacks historical perspective. Postmill interpretations of prophecy trouble DP and CP
critics, the root of the criticism stemming from a sense that they do not interpret the Bible as literally
as they should. DPs think that postmill interpretations are not
“
the plain meaning
”
of the texts. In
fairness to postmills, however, they attempt honest and careful interpretation of apocalyptic
language. Although the postmillennial view was the dominant view throughout most of Church
history, it became relatively rare during the 1920s. That trend seems to be reversing, however, as
more and more Christians seek a comprehensive framework for all of life, including political and
social action.
A personal note: Recognizing the compelling arguments in favor of theonomic postmillennialism
(see Ken Gentry
’
s book
He Shall Have Dominion
), I have come to realize what an important part
of history we are living in today. What a mighty God we serve! When we truly understand how
mighty He is, then it
’
s not so difficult to believe that His message will subdue all opposition. Yes,
there are bumps in the road. Indeed, what we are seeing today is the judgment of God upon our Enlightenment age, which is turning out to be a short (albeit about 200 years) parenthesis of rebellion King Jesus has allowed to be inserted into the ongoing progress of His Kingdom
development. What we are witnessing today is nothing less than the crumbling of humanism in the

 

[Inspector Javert]

Icon.... thanks for that link:wavey::

Have only perused it so far, but will read at length as time permits. This looks like a good intro. for discussion about the alternative viewpoints.

 

[Iconoclast]

Icon.... thanks for that link:wavey::

Have only perused it so far, but will read at length as time permits. This looks like a good intro. for discussion about the alternative viewpoints.

You are welcome....I just glanced at it...but it seems somewhat helpful....

When someone holds to one view they squirm and cringe when a critique is offered...but healthy growth takes time and struggle sometimes.

The writer seemed to be objective:thumbsup::thumbsup:

There is much written in scripture about the future.I find it exciting and challenging.

 

[Iconoclast]

From David Chilton...Days of Vengeance...

When God’s Kingdom-City is fully
matured, then He will once more release Satan and
allow him to deceive the nations for the final
conflagration. But the fire will fall according to God’s
schedule, not the Dragon’s. At every point, God is
controlling events for His own glory.
Satan is to remain bound, St. John tells us, for a
thousand years – a large, rounded-off number. We have
seen that, as the number seven connotes a fullness of
quality in Biblical imagery, the number ten contains the
idea of a fullness of quantity; in other words, it stands for
manyness. A thousand multiplies and intensifies this
(10 x 10 x 10), in order to express great vastness (cf.
5:11; 7:4-8; 9:16; 11:3, 13; 12:6; 14:1,3, 20).18 Thus,
God claims to own “the cattle on a thousand hills” (Ps.
50:10). This of course does not mean that the cattle on
the 1,001st hill belongs to someone else. God owns all
the cattle on all the hills. But He says “a thousand” to
indicate that there are many hills, and much cattle (cf.
Deut. 1:11; 7:9; Ps. 68:17; 84:10; 90:4). Similarly, the
thousand years of Revelation 20 represent a vast,
undefined period of time (although its limited,
provisional nature as a pre-consummation era is
underlined by the fact that the phrase is mentioned
only six times in this chapter). It has already lasted
almost 2,000 years, and will probably go on for many
more. Milton Terry observes: “The thousand years is to
be understood as a symbolical number, denoting a long
period. It is a round number, but stands for an indefinite
period, an eon whose duration it would be a folly to
attempt to compute. Its beginning dates from the great
catastrophe of this book, the fall of the mystic Babylon.
It is the eon which opens with the going forth of the
great Conqueror of 19:11-16, and continues until he
shall have put all his enemies under his feet (1 Cor.
15:25). It is the same period as that required for the
stone of Daniel’s prophecy (Dan. 2:35) to fill the earth,
and the mustard seed of Jesus’ prophecy to consummate
its world-wide growth (Matt. 13:31-32). How long the
King of kings will continue His battle against evil and
defer the last decisive blow, when Satan shall be ‘loosed
for a little time,’ no man can even approximately judge.
It may require a million years.” 19
The binding of the Dragon prevents him from
deceiving the nations any longer, until the thousand
years are completed; after these things he must be
released for a short time, in which he again goes forth
to deceive the nations. The story of the Dragon will be
picked up again in verse 7, and so here we need notice
only St. John’s use of the word must (literally, it is
necessary; cf. 1:1; 4:1; 10:11; 11:5; 13:10; 17:10; 22:6).
At every point, Satan’s activity takes place under the
strict government of the Providence of God. As Swete
observes, “it is in vain to speculate on the grounds of
this necessity” (upon which he immediately goes on to
speculate!);20 it is enough that God has decreed its
necessity. The Dragon is not his own master. He has
been seized and bound and shut up in the Abyss, and
someday he will be released for a brief time – but all this
takes place according to God’s good and holy purposes.
All the Dragon’s hatred and rage against Christ’s
Kingdom are utterly impotent and ineffectual; he is
powerless to do anything until he is deliberately
released by the One who holds the key to the Abyss.