Post-mil is right

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yes thanks iconoclast.....interesting read.:thumbsup:

 

[agedman]

This thread is greatly troubling to me.

For I find that I am contrary in view to those I respect and admire when sharing the doctrines of grace issues.

Here are some reasons:

First:

The foundational principle of the Post mill view is that the whole would would become so enamored with God, so that a golden age of overflowing love will sweep all nations into belief and unity. That social justice founded and bounded upon biblical principle will capture the world hearts and minds.

It astounds me that many Calvinistic thinking folks hold to the post mill view.

The view is actually exactly opposite of the fundamental biblical view of the typical Calvinists.

One has to totally ignore nearly every statement of the TULIP in order to accept the post mill view of "world evangelism" and "social uprightness."

Such thinking is more in line with the Arminian view of societal moral manipulation through the "social gospel" and "societal revolution." The first characteristic of Calvinistic thinking is that Godly righteousness cannot be oblige out of unregenerate hearts.

Second:

Such claims as the post mill view holds the most strict Biblical interpretation is just unsound judgment.

By their own admission they take as allegorical, symbolic, and myth any prophecy that doesn't fit the scheme.

As a result , the post mill view has to take as mythical a vast amount of prophecy that was NOT symbolic at the first advent of Christ. Why they hold to one as symbolic and the other as not is only because they must conform the Scriptures to the view rather than the view to the Scriptures - typical bias based thinking/manipulation.

The Post Mill view holds that the prophets presented factual statements as to Christ's birth, life, death, resurrection and then spoke symbolically and allegorically of His return and the conditions of the world at that time.

They will hold one who does not teach as accurate the prophetic statements of the earthly ministry as heretical, yet are compelled to discredit those same prophets when looking to the future. If one is heretical - is not the other?

In conclusion:

The Scriptures are clear.

Will there be a single world worship - certainly - when the antichrist is in charge.

Will there be a time of world peace - certainly - when the antichrist is in charge.

Will there be a time when folks will cry out saying, "peace and safety at last" - certainly - when the antichrist is in charge.

Then it all falls apart - as anything built upon the lies of Satan does.
​

Here, I am going to be bold, and it may even be somewhat offensive.

In my opinion, the current rise of Post mil view acceptability is fitting very well into the scheme of the last day deception in which the world (even the religious) will embrace the false prophet's declaration of loyalty to Satan.

What the Post mil view states is going to be represented in that time - a single world system in which worship around the world is focused as one, on one - is what Christ prophetically stated will happen in the last days of the gentiles. No more wars, no more problems, and everyone able to buy and sell, marry and give in marriage, and expect to live happily ever after.

Deception and distraction are two arrows of Satan that have been used throughout church history.

Then what does Christ say will happen "after that time of the Gentiles?"

I am pre-mill.

I will return with Christ - for that is His promise.

I do not expect this world that is no friend or fellowship of/with Christ to ever truly accept Christ, but He will dominate all nations in the millennium.

Even Jonathan Edwards thought that he was living in the last days. Every believer with the hope of Christ's return has considered they live in the last days. The apostle John, warns of the deception of the last days and even to the point that he uses his time as the last days.

John didn't think the world was getting better and better - just more deceived.

Jonathan Edwards didn't think the world was getting better and better - just more deceived.

Certainly the last 100 or more years have done nothing to bolster the claims of the post mill view - just more deceived.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

This thread is greatly troubling to me.

For I find that I am contrary in view to those I respect and admire when sharing the doctrines of grace issues.

Here are some reasons:

First:

The foundational principle of the Post mill view is that the whole would would become so enamored with God, so that a golden age of overflowing love will sweep all nations into belief and unity. That social justice founded and bounded upon biblical principle will capture the world hearts and minds.

It astounds me that many Calvinistic thinking folks hold to the post mill view.

The view is actually exactly opposite of the fundamental biblical view of the typical Calvinists.

One has to totally ignore nearly every statement of the TULIP in order to accept the post mill view of "world evangelism" and "social uprightness."

Such thinking is more in line with the Arminian view of societal moral manipulation through the "social gospel" and "societal revolution." The first characteristic of Calvinistic thinking is that Godly righteousness cannot be oblige out of unregenerate hearts.

Then please explain Jonathon Edwards perspective.

 

[agedman]

Then please explain Jonathon Edwards perspective.

This is an excellent question.

I am going to do this totally by memory, so if I have made a poor post, I assume others will be better at explaining.

Edwards was very concerned that the people get the correct thinking that Christ would and could return at any time.

He took very literal that the millennium was as John stated in Revelation.

Some have made him pre and post millennial because Edwards did not have a single general resurrection at the end of time thinking, but that there were multiple resurrections following each age.

For example, consider the 7 churches in Revelation representing 7 ages with the resurrection following the close of each of the ages. Therefore, at the end of the millennium, there would be a resurrection in which Christ would present the saved to the Father.

Edwards was not so binding to covenant theology that he thought that the church replaced Israel, but took the prophets literal and that there would be what I call the political/social/religious Israel that is literally dragged back and redeemed by God. He taught that the church would be a part of this group just as Paul states the Gentiles were to be grafted into the tree of Israel.

One must remember that though predominantly post mill, Edwards was like most puritan preachers in that he would declare things would get a lot worse for the world before it got better, and that the millennium was just another period in the history of the world - although it was to be the last one.

He (as did others) considered the "new world" to be a shining city upon the hill to serve as an example for the lost world to look and see Christ at work. Although himself a slave owner, he desired that everyone be free and live a life of righteousness. And that God ultimately planned that all the world would be redeemed.

Edwards was not dismayed by the sinfulness of the world around him. He rested in the ultimate victory of Christ that would be realized during the millennial reign.

Ok, that is a really short "brief" to kind of lay out Edwards thinking, and here are some areas that I personally think important.

1) Edwards was unlike the typical covenant thinker, in that Edwards did look forward to a literal millennial reign of Christ in which both the Gentile believers and Jews were brought together into one believing body of saints.

2) Edwards was unlike most theological folks, today, in that he did have the view of multiple resurrections, but only one return of Christ.

3) Edwards was (in my opinion) Pre-mill on the return to rule during the millennium, and post mill in that the end requires all to be raised and presented to the Father. Most folks want to only keep him in a post mill because it fits more into the typical puritan view, but his writings don't particularly agree (again, in my opinion).

4) Edwards was rapture oriented, in that he truly did not see the tribulation as yet future, but taught that the world is in a troublesome time and the Lord could return at any moment. This was not unusual preaching for the "Great Awakening." Many of the preachers preached that the folks need to "look up, the redemption draws nigh."

There are a great number of resources on the Web (some editorially biased) about Edwards and the theology he taught.

I think it astounding that Yale has his papers and he died at Harvard. It isn't like those two schools have any great claim of theological enlightenment in this age, but back then they had some pretty high standards of academic and morals.

For instance, (if I recall) Edwards entered Yale at 15 already knowing New Testament Greek, OT Hebrew, Latin, French, German, and read in the typical classics.

We graduate seminary students with less education than Edwards entered Yale.

So much is the progress of our modern world - we are just getting better and better until God is just obliged to let us all into heaven - we deserve it.

 

[percho]

Before God said, Let there be light, God had determined by ordination to send his only begotten Son into the world for the purpose of death in order to destroy him who had the power of death, that is the devil. This Son would come into the world by being conceived by Spirit the God in a virgin woman, a woman who had come about by being taken from a man created in the image of God. This woman is called a help meet.

Adam the first man sinned and brought death to all after himself.

Let's say as before the flood you have present upon the earth the sons of God and the daughters of men.

Throughout the whole of the Old Testament, the Scriptures, God shows where he began with one man, Abraham and through him two families by which he would bring about destroying him who had the power of death and redeeming the world unto himself.

Around, we will say, 750 BC a prophet of God wrote this. Hear this word that the LORD hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying, You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities. Amos 3:1,2 This whole family had been divided into two and God was about to disperse one of the families among the nations, (the Gentiles).

About 165 years later this is what people thought concerning that whole family brought up out of Egypt which had been divided into two and now there was only one left. Jer. 33:24 Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them.


Since the beginning of Christianity, men of God have been trying to same the very same thing.

What did God the creator of heaven and earth have to say about that.

Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant [be] not with day and night, [and if] I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, [so] that I will not take [any] of his seed [to be] rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.

God scattered one family among the nations (Gentiles) and the remembrance of them was forgotten.
God sent the other family into captivity and then brought some back into the land so the Christ could be born of woman according to the scriptures. God then scattered that family but the remembrance of them remained. God through the Christ will take out of those scattered in the nations, among the Gentiles, a people for his name leaving the others blind until he is finished electing a people for his name from among the nations, (Gentiles.)

God will them send Jesus back to rebuild the tabernacle of David which consisted of the whole family brought up out of Egypt. The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him [shall] the gathering of the people [be]. Gen 49:10

I believe that will begin the millenium and during and toward the end thereof the residue of man can seek the Lord and those chosen as a people for his name.

 

[Protestant]

The Bible is RIFE with passages that say that the Kingdom of God will expand and cover the earth, that knowledge of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea, that people will grab our coattails and ask us to lead them to God. I mean the Bible is FULL of such passages, so I don't know where you get the idea that there is no Scriptural justification.

Secondly, history does nothing BUT show Post-mil to be true. The church is not smaller in this world than it was 500 years ago, friend. It occupies a tremendous amount more of this world than it did five years ago. And it is growing by leaps and bounds today.

Re: “The Bible is RIFE with passages that say that the Kingdom of God will expand and cover the earth, that knowledge of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea,”………I can name several passages which confirm your interpretation!

• The Parable of the Mustard Seed……here we are taught the increase of Christ’s Church from humble beginnings into a monstrosity of greed, avarice and worldliness wherein the birds of the air (called ‘the wicked ones’ in verse 19) nest in their comfortable, ever secure ‘home.’

• The Parable of the Leaven……whereby the hidden leaven of evil teachings infiltrate the Church…….worldwide.

• Matt.24……..wherein many false prophets will rise up and deceive many…..For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to deceive, if possible, the very elect.

• Even in our generation the world’s most popular Evangelist, Billy Graham, has expanded our understanding of salvation. He has discovered the heathen can be saved, though never having heard of Christ or the way of salvation. They simply sincerely believe there is a God through observing His works in nature.

Re: “Christian Church growing by leaps and bounds”…..Amen! One has only to look at the church founded by John Osteen. Today with Joel Osteen’s faithful guidance Lakeside is the largest church in America!

In the last two centuries numerous new Christian denominations have been birthed: Mormonism, Seventh-day Adventism, Christian Science, Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Branch Davidians, and the Pentecostals, to name a few.

Let’s not forget the influence of the Roman Catholic Church whose zealous missionary efforts have resulted in the Christianization of innumerable heathen in 3rd world countries throughout the centuries. They have also been faithful to cleanse the Church through their unique process of eradicating the Bible-believing heretics by any means necessary.

Yes, indeed. I can't keep the coat-tail grabbers away! They are so thirsty and hungry for the God who only wants to bless by giving them their every whim and desire!

 

[preachinjesus]

I've been a bit busy this weekend, so apologies for not replying as of yet. Several posts are worth exploring, but also worth taking time to do so.

Be back soon.

 

[Iconoclast]

I've been a bit busy this weekend, so apologies for not replying as of yet. Several posts are worth exploring, but also worth taking time to do so.

Be back soon.

And I think this is where we see a limited horizon on his part, and the part of so many who advocate the postmillennial position like he does. History in fact shows us that things continually got worse, and not just in Asia Minor, following AD 70.

The Bar Kohkba Rebellion being one of the key instances. Having substantial work in the history of this phase, I don't know how anyone can look at the evidence (historically) from AD 70 and through the early 700s and see that things increasingly got better.

I am at a disadvantage here and cannot offer much specific on these issues you raise ,as your knowledge of this time period far exceeds mine.
Whatever took place here while it helped shape history in the short term, has little to do with the overall plan of God.

I am also leary of the "early church fathers"and their teaching,pro or con.
the reason being is I wonder how much "truth' they had if it resulted in the RC church coming to power.
While I am confident that God indeed maintained his Church....I am not sure what that looked like.

Perhaps, if you agree that the arrival and institutionalization of the Roman Catholic brought a new revival of the Gospel across the world, then we can say things got better.

I would not say this,nor do I feel the need to.If you understand that God has planned for the long haul, there is no need to desire this to be part of things getting better.

However, I don't see things having gotten better following AD 70. In fact, I would say for Christians, things got substantially worse. The Neronic Persecution was nothing like subsequent ones in terms of extent of reach geographically. The Diocletian Persecution alone saw over 20,000 Christians murdered for their belief.

So, I just don't see that things had gotten better following AD 70.

again...in the long term it has gotten better...i would point out that the printing press coming on the scene,at the time of Wycliffe and those men geometrically expanded the kingdom in God's providence.

 

[Iconoclast]

agedman

Hello....I am not sure your concerns have much merit.
First:

The foundational principle of the Post mill view is that the whole would would become so enamored with God, so that a golden age of overflowing love will sweep all nations into belief and unity.

This is just not so ....this idea is not taught by any solid bible believing postmill men.Do you have examples of such teaching?

That social justice founded and bounded upon biblical principle will capture the world hearts and minds.

All the men I read stress the new birth alone changes men,not social justice.

It astounds me that many Calvinistic thinking folks hold to the post mill view.

The view is actually exactly opposite of the fundamental biblical view of the typical Calvinists.

One has to totally ignore nearly every statement of the TULIP in order to accept the post mill view of "world evangelism" and "social uprightness."

That so many cals are post should be a clue that they are not looking to influence goats to behave "like"christians.They know the T in tulip is true,so the idea that some offer that PM is trying to influence goats to play nice...is foolish.

Such thinking is more in line with the Arminian view of societal moral manipulation through the "social gospel" and "societal revolution." The first characteristic of Calvinistic thinking is that Godly righteousness cannot be oblige out of unregenerate hearts.

Agedman....you will not find any cal who suggests that we "christianize goats and reprobates...it just is not found.Do not believe those who oppose the teaching who offer a caricature of the teaching.


Second:

Such claims as the post mill view holds the most strict Biblical interpretation is just unsound judgment.

By their own admission they take as allegorical, symbolic, and myth any prophecy that doesn't fit the scheme.

They let the bible interpret the bible.

For example...you take the "mark of the beast"....and go outside the bible and say...it is a tatoo, a micro chip, a bar code, etc to interpret it.

post mill stay in the bible and point to the same language already found and used in Ezk 9....and show a biblical meaning. Angelic beings marking out the saved,so they were spared in the judgement.

As a result , the post mill view has to take as mythical a vast amount of prophecy that was NOT symbolic at the first advent of Christ.

Nothing is "mythical". They take from symbols,and metaphors, and look for the literal meaning and fulfillment.

In conclusion:

The Scriptures are clear.

Will there be a single world worship - certainly - when the antichrist is in charge.

Will there be a time of world peace - certainly - when the antichrist is in charge.

Will there be a time when folks will cry out saying, "peace and safety at last" - certainly - when the antichrist is in charge.​

The scriptures are not clear on this...premill books say this, the bible does not.
Daniel 9 has to do with Jesus being cut off in the midst of the week...3.5 years....not the antichrist breaking a supposed covenant in middle of the 7 years:thumbsup:​

 

[Luke2427]

This thread is greatly troubling to me.

For I find that I am contrary in view to those I respect and admire when sharing the doctrines of grace issues.

Here are some reasons:

First:

The foundational principle of the Post mill view is that the whole would would become so enamored with God, so that a golden age of overflowing love will sweep all nations into belief and unity. That social justice founded and bounded upon biblical principle will capture the world hearts and minds.

It astounds me that many Calvinistic thinking folks hold to the post mill view.

This speaks to your lack of knowledge about the history of those who have espoused the doctrines of grace. For hundreds of years postmil was the predominate eschatology of Calvinists.

The view is actually exactly opposite of the fundamental biblical view of the typical Calvinists.

This could not be more wrong.

One has to totally ignore nearly every statement of the TULIP in order to accept the post mill view of "world evangelism" and "social uprightness."

This is absolutely wrong.

Such thinking is more in line with the Arminian view of societal moral manipulation through the "social gospel" and "societal revolution." The first characteristic of Calvinistic thinking is that Godly righteousness cannot be oblige out of unregenerate hearts.

Postmil finds its moorings in the Calvinist tradition. Arminians like Clarke and Wesley did embrace it, too.

The soteriology has nothing to do with it, though.

Second:

Such claims as the post mill view holds the most strict Biblical interpretation is just unsound judgment.

This is insulting to every postmil and is dead wrong.

By their own admission they take as allegorical, symbolic, and myth any prophecy that doesn't fit the scheme.

No postmil has EVER admitted that he takes as allegorical, symbolic or myth ANY PROPHECY THAT DOESN'T FIT HIS SCHEME.

That's ridiculous in the highest degree.

You don't have to agree with postmil but let's not pretend that the proponents of it were not some of the most brilliant Christians in history. Men like Jonathan Edwards who almost EVERY scholar acknowledges is the greatest philosophical and theological mind to ever grace American soil.

That doesn't mean he is right about it- but it seems like you think it is an unintelligent view- which would be UTTERLY ridiculous.

As a result , the post mill view has to take as mythical a vast amount of prophecy that was NOT symbolic at the first advent of Christ. Why they hold to one as symbolic and the other as not is only because they must conform the Scriptures to the view rather than the view to the Scriptures - typical bias based thinking/manipulation.

Most apocalyptic language is non-literal.

It is not intelligent to take language that God gave as figurative and force it to be literal.

The Post Mill view holds that the prophets presented factual statements as to Christ's birth, life, death, resurrection and then spoke symbolically and allegorically of His return and the conditions of the world at that time.

So, you think Jesus, in heaven has a bleeding lamb's head covered with eyes and horns??

Or do you have the good sense to recognize figurative language when it is presented?

They will hold one who does not teach as accurate the prophetic statements of the earthly ministry as heretical, yet are compelled to discredit those same prophets when looking to the future. If one is heretical - is not the other?

Where do you get that postmils "hold" that?

In conclusion:

The Scriptures are clear.

Will there be a single world worship - certainly - when the antichrist is in charge.

Will there be a time of world peace - certainly - when the antichrist is in charge.

Will there be a time when folks will cry out saying, "peace and safety at last" - certainly - when the antichrist is in charge.​

Do you believe in the rapture?

Because almost NOBODY did before Darby invented it in 1830 and still almost no one believed it until Scofiel popularized it- and STILL it did not really catch on until the charismatics and Paul Crouch and TBN made it popular.

That the antiChrist has yet to come is SIMPLY NOT taught in Scripture. It is PERFECTLY in line with Scripture to believe that he came in the first century. PERFECTLY in line with scripture!

This demand of yours to that we MUST believe that all of this prophecy is future for us is simply not based on Scripture but on the paradigm you've always accepted.

Then it all falls apart - as anything built upon the lies of Satan does.

Postmil is "built on the lies of SATAN"?!?!?!?!

What kind of idiot would say such a thing??!


​

Here, I am going to be bold, and it may even be somewhat offensive.

As if saying that the predominant Christian eschatology of hundreds of years that many of us still hold to is built on THE LIES OF SATAN is not offensive enough already!!!!!

In my opinion, the current rise of Post mil view acceptability is fitting very well into the scheme of the last day deception in which the world (even the religious) will embrace the false prophet's declaration of loyalty to Satan.

Your opinion has nothing to do with Scripture.

What the Post mil view states is going to be represented in that time - a single world system in which worship around the world is focused as one, on one - is what Christ prophetically stated will happen in the last days of the gentiles. No more wars, no more problems, and everyone able to buy and sell, marry and give in marriage, and expect to live happily ever after.

Only a terribly uniformed and uneducated person would say such a thing. If you knew the first thing about postmil you would know that it saddles us with the responsibility to take the world for Christ. Not to sit on our hands and watch the world get better, but to go and MAKE it better through the Gospel.

Even Jonathan Edwards thought that he was living in the last days.

Jonathan Edwards was a died in the WOOL postmil!

Jonathan Edwards didn't think the world was getting better and better - just more deceived.

You don't know WHAT IN THE WORLD you are talking about. Why don't you go to school and learn something before you debate this stuff?

If you knew beans from apple butter about this issue you would know that Jonathan Edwards is one of the GREAT proponents of postmil.

Until you learn better you ought to keep your mouth shut about stuff.

Being old doesn't make some people wise.

 

[Luke2427]

Re: “The Bible is RIFE with passages that say that the Kingdom of God will expand and cover the earth, that knowledge of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea,”………I can name several passages which confirm your interpretation!

• The Parable of the Mustard Seed……here we are taught the increase of Christ’s Church from humble beginnings into a monstrosity of greed, avarice and worldliness wherein the birds of the air (called ‘the wicked ones’ in verse 19) nest in their comfortable, ever secure ‘home.’

• The Parable of the Leaven……whereby the hidden leaven of evil teachings infiltrate the Church…….worldwide.

The parable is not about some false church. NOTHIGN could be more ridiculous!

The parable is about the ACTUAL KINGDOM OF GOD.

I have never seen such terrible wrangling of Scripture!

• Matt.24……..wherein many false prophets will rise up and deceive many…..For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to deceive, if possible, the very elect.

Matthew 24 is about the destruction of the Temple.

Jesus said no stone of the temple would be left upon another, The disciples asked him when that would come to pass. Matthew 24 is Jesus answer to the question about when the temnple would be destroyed and the end of that age brought to pass.

• Even in our generation the world’s most popular Evangelist, Billy Graham, has expanded our understanding of salvation. He has discovered the heathen can be saved, though never having heard of Christ or the way of salvation. They simply sincerely believe there is a God through observing His works in nature.

\
What does that have to do with anything??????

Re: “Christian Church growing by leaps and bounds”…..Amen! One has only to look at the church founded by John Osteen. Today with Joel Osteen’s faithful guidance Lakeside is the largest church in America!

Who said Osteen was Christian??????

Who referenced Osteen as an example???

I cited two websites in the OP that spoke of thousands of people coming to Christ everyday in the underground church in China.

The evangelical church is growing by leaps and bounds in this world. I should not have to tell you that- seriously. If you are going to speak on this matter you ought first to know these things.

In the last two centuries numerous new Christian denominations have been birthed: Mormonism, Seventh-day Adventism, Christian Science, Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Branch Davidians, and the Pentecostals, to name a few.

So???

Yes, indeed. I can't keep the coat-tail grabbers away!

What a smart-alek remark. If you want me to be civil, then don't act like a jerk.

And address the ACTUAL arguments made in this thread. Like the fact that there are far more Christians today than in Paul's day.

That Christians have established hundreds of thousands of hospitals and orphanages and other mercy ministries around this world that have made this world a better place to live.

They are so thirsty and hungry for the God who only wants to bless by giving them their every whim and desire!

What a smartalek snotty remark!!

You don't want to discuss it. You want to insult people who you would not talk to like that if they stood before you.

OBVIOUSLY, we are not there yet- but EQUALLY obviously we are a lot closer than we were a thousand years ago. And a WHOLE lot closer than we were two thousand years ago.

 

[preachinjesus]

If they're like me, they're sitting on the sidelines watching you carry the ball.You're doing a fantastic job. I've got nothing to add.

I had wondered if some of the personalities posting were keeping others at bay, I've noticed that in some threads more prudent posters will stay away if there are some who post who tend towards the inflammatory.

Thanks for the kind words.

 

[preachinjesus]

No, the idea presented in the scriptures is that Satan was no longer able to deceive the nations:

None of the passages you listed state that Satan is currently bound when one approaches them in a prima facie reading that understands context and the greater point.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, which is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
3 and cast him into the abyss, and shut it, and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years should be finished: after this he must be loosed for a little time. Rev 20

I absolutely believe that in the millennium Satan will be bound. But you can't postulate that he is currently bound by using a passage that premillennialists like myself see as futurist.

Once again, Edersheim:

"In the New Testament prophecies are not made to point to facts, but facts to point back to prophecies."

No, I disagree with this completely. If for no other reason than the bulk of biblical prophecy (whether its Old or New Testament) points to facts and events in the future.

The pattern of prophecy established in the Old Testament carries through to the New Testament in form and efficacy.

If it doesn't you'll have to show us how that isn't the case and how, using instances of fulfilled NT prophecy (specifically that used by Jesus) where your point is found.

It seems to me when Jesus said that He would be crucified and resurrected that was a prophecy of His own life that came about literally and factually.

Perhaps you minimalize the enormous effect and benefit for mankind the gospel has already had to this date.

The strong man was bound and his goods were spoiled.

I'm not dismissing the advances for the Gospel, but I am saying that we are not seeing and will not see a worldwide evangelization event that is ushering in the Kingdom of God.

You, and our other postmil friends, still haven't reconciled my points about:
- Significant evil and sin within the world today
- The lack of complete destruction of Judaism in AD 70, destroying the Temple doesn't equal destroying Judaism
- The significant amount of persecution that early Christians went through, I don't think 20,000 being killed by Diocletian is a small number, after AD 70
- That to get a growing Kingdom ethic in the world you have to partner with the Roman Catholic Church to see it as the vessel for ushering in God's Kingdom from AD 313 to 1517

I'll look forward to precise answers on those.

 

[preachinjesus]

Icon, thanks for the thoughtful posts. My tone here is always one of friendship and congeniality.

Looking back....working through Edwards work was one of the most helpful things I have read and looked at. It tied together all 66 books for me,in a way that had eluded me.My understanding was very fragmented before that time...His postmillenialism was a bit of a distraction back then as i had not been exposed to that kind of idea and teaching before.

Edwards is an outstanding theologian to read and his coherency is a hallmark of his robust theological prolegomena. Granted, I entirely disagree with his reformed position and his eschatology, but I can appreciate his system and contribution.

Having worked through Things to Come by Dwight Pentecost....it was quite a confusing time.

Well, let me recommend a host of better theologians to present the premillennial position. We can start with GE Ladd and then swing over to Carl FH Henry.

I see in the postmill writers what seems to me to match the view of Kingdom living ...NOW.....in the already portion that has been Inaugurated in the Incarnation.

Now this is interesting, because my study on the Kingdom of God is that it is only truly ushered in at the eschaton. That God brings His final eschatological Kingdom is not something mankind is able to produce by good works here on Earth. The incarnation did not usher in the Kingdom of God but inaugurated the era of the New Covenant (sealed at the Cross) which fulfilled the prophecies and commitments of the older covenants.

The incarnation is extraordinarily significant for the world. Yet saying the Kingdom of God is in the world now seems to discount the role and ministry of the Holy Spirit to aid believers. If the Kingdom was established (I guess we'd have to choose between the Resurrection, Pentecost, or AD 70) why does the Holy Spirit still have a ministry among us?

The other views seem to encourage-world flight- which i believe to be exceedingly sinful.:thumbs: I do not think they set out to do it,but we live based on what we believe...so they drift into it.

Isn't it interesting that most premillennialists are highly involved in society, politics, and staying within the culture to present Christ?

I don't see a mad rush to ecclesiological bomb-shelters to pray for the rapture and let the world go to hades in a handbasket.

Most all of it 1-19 has occured already.....somethings still to happen.

Revelation 6,and 12 are key passages with an overview of the conflict,and a view toward the overcomers.

I can probably list a half dozen reasons why Revelation 5-18 is futurist and depicts future coming events. Again, this conversation does come down to how one approaches Revelation and the other passages within the NT.

The entire argument of the postmillennialist (and preterist) rests on an early dating to Revelation. However, given the internal and external data we have it isn't possible to date Revelation prior to AD 70. So what happens to the postmillennialist position if Revelation is written after AD 70?

The symbols had literal fulfillment in Israel.Apostate Israel.

I don't completely agree here, because you have to reconcile the language being used with contexts that escape the content of Revelation (even if you read it prior to AD 70.) The scenes depicted and the events unraveled appear to defy contextualization within the history of Israel, be those prior to the Second Temple or prior to AD 70. The language of Revelation is predictive insofar as it anticipates, along with other NT eschatological passages an eventual return beyond the present age.

When we move to that larger perspective of the NT's treatment of eschatology there are some passages that need to be reconciled such as:

Matthew 16:27 - where Jesus returns and brings both judgment and reward. Did this happen already, if so why is there so much that needs to be judged still?
Matthew 24 - Several of the marks of the end of the age are the proliferation of natural disasters, disease, persecution, and false teachers. If these things all happened prior to AD 70, then why is the highest mark of false teachers and persecution of the Church after AD 70?
Matthew 24:21As well in the Olivet Discourse, Jesus notes that there will be suffering like to no other time? How is this aligned with a psotmillennial view that things are going to get better prior to Jesus return?
Mark 13:26-35 point out that Jesus' second coming is brought with great power and glory, vanquishing the wicked. If this has already happened, when did those in the first century all see Jesus return during AD 70?
Parables of Return - there are bunch of parables about the return of Jesus Christ and being ready. Within them there is an element of sinfulness along with holiness. The larger idea is that when Jesus returns it is visible and not cloaked in spirituality. It is a literal return. Postmil position seems to obscure this.
1 Corinthians 4:5 Paul points out that in Jesus' return darkness will still exist in the world, he contrasts Jesus' coming with bringing light. If the postmil position is correct, and we are in an increasingly better age, why is there still darkness at Jesus return?
Jude 14f Jude protrays the eschatological return of Christ to judge false teachers and sinners who "In the endtime...walking according to their own ungodly desires." (Jude 18) If this is a glorious Kingdom age where the Gospel is established and God's Kingdom is here, why is such a picture painted in Jude of despair and sinfulness?

Canonically we see that the second coming of Christ carries an expectation of it occurring amid turmoil, cf. Daniel 7:13, Zechariah 14:5.

I think these are a handful of many other passages that describe the challenge of consistent interpretation of a postmillennailist position.

When reading the Bible in a straightforward, plain text way understanding its context and literary functions, you have to suddenly shift to allegory and symbolism to achieve a postmillennial perspective. I don't see that as a consistent hermeneutic, nor as a consistent prophetic approach.

If the symbols were literally fulfilled with Israel, why is there, in light of these passages, still a need for their continued, future fulfillment?

As far as these historical events....things get worse before they get better.
I still believe we are the early church.What if we are just beginning to really gear up for a great harvest of souls in the years to come,as Christ will have Dominion worldwide....

I'll respond more completely below, but the position of the postmillennialist is that things have been getting better and will continue to do so. I don't know how, after 2000 years we can still be in the early church stage. We clearly seem to have progressed outside of that. And I don't know any serious historian or theologian that would say that we are still in the early church stage.

Even if we say Jesus isn't returning for thousands of years (which is completely possible) we can't push out the timeline so long that we obscure or dismiss the ongoing troubles, travails, and persecutions of our day and before. That isn't a consistent position.

Postmill understanding implies it takes time.....much time for all the scriptures to be fulfilled. the parables of the mustard seed ,and leaven are used often to suggest this long extended period of growth.

So are all the prophecies already fulfilled or will some more need to be fulfilled? I'm a bit confused. But maybe its because its Monday.

End part one

 

[preachinjesus]

Part two

I am at a disadvantage here and cannot offer much specific on these issues you raise ,as your knowledge of this time period far exceeds mine.
Whatever took place here while it helped shape history in the short term, has little to do with the overall plan of God.

But you can't say the first and be declarative about the second statement.

The world situation, specifically for both Christian and Jew became highly difficult in the second and third centuries.

For the Jews the Bar Kokhba Revolt occurred after a long period of development and establishment in their lands. The Jewish people continued on and flourished in some sectors and across the bourgeoning Mediterranean region for centuries. I'm not sure how the Jewish people could have been judged, as suggested by postmils, in AD 70 if they continued even to this day.

Also, the Christians suffered for generations until Constantine. Now there are a couple of additional challenges here:

- You have to admit that the Roman Catholic Church was established to be the Kingdom of God in the world and that it was effective at ushering in the Gospel age.
- Then we have to reconcile the massive secularism of Western Europe and the spread of Islam. Are they examples of the proliferation of the Kingdom of God? Christianity is not even spoken of in areas of Western Europe and is illegal in most of the Middle East. If that a condition of the increasing postmillennial Kingdom resurgence that will usher in Jesus' return?

I am also leary of the "early church fathers"and their teaching,pro or con. the reason being is I wonder how much "truth' they had if it resulted in the RC church coming to power.
While I am confident that God indeed maintained his Church....I am not sure what that looked like.

Well is the establishment of the RCC a good thing or bad thing would be one next question.

Keep in mind, most of the early church fathers are considered highly reputable sources by both secular and Christian scholars. Along with additional sources from antiquity we have been able to reconstruct a faithful picture of the scene in the early five centuries.

If the postmillennialist position is correct there would need to be an agent for ushering in the Kingdom of God, given the commitment to Jesus' immanent return, at any point along the historical timeline.

again...in the long term it has gotten better...i would point out that the printing press coming on the scene,at the time of Wycliffe and those men geometrically expanded the kingdom in God's providence.

Here we will respectfully disagree.

- We have more slavery than ever before.
- We have more deaths, murder, and genocide related to war over the past 100 years than in the previous 2,000 years.
- We have increasing secularization in Western Europe to the point that the Gospel doesn't exist in most cities, towns, and countries.
- The expansion of Communism has removed the Gospel from the vast majority of the people in Asia over the past 75 years.
- While sub-cultural house church movements have made strides, they still only represent a fraction of the overall population of those lands.
- In Africa, the AIDS epidemic along will kill off half their population in the next 25 years.
- Likewise, the unsettled governments and continual coups have brought in acts of genocide that are being applied onto specifically Christian groups.
- The rampant immoralism of the internet has produced an entire generation of western males addicted to pornography at levels unmatched in history.
- The homosexual agenda has been accomplished in almost all major western countries.
- Marriage is at its lowest levels in generations.
- Births outside of marriage are at their highest levels in generations.
- Cohabitation and acts of immorality are beyond comprehension.

Yet we still have a few who say we live amid times where the Gospel is flourishing and the Kingdom if growing.

I respectfully challenge that notion.

Thanks for the engaging and edifying conversation. You are truly a wonderful brother in Christ. :godisgood:

 

[preachinjesus]

If I'm not mistaken, I detect that you are "Historic Pre-mil"...(like Ladd). Honestly, I don't even know the difference between that and Dispy Pre-mil. LOL! :laugh: I only know that I essentially agree with most of what they teach.

Well, I am a historical premillennialist who doesn't see a literal 7 year tribulation period leading up to the return of Christ.

That's why I figured there was someone more equipped to defend the premill position. :laugh:

 

[preachinjesus]

Then please explain Jonathon Edwards perspective.

That's not that hard of a question to reconcile.

Edwards was an imminently qualified theologian...but so were Rudolph Bultmann and Paul Tillich.

That doesn't mean I subscribe to nor have to deal with their perspectives on equal footing.

Edwards was a double-determinist, Reformed Puritan theologian. I am not a determinist, reformed, nor a puritan (though one atheist friends calls me puritanical...my ancestors did come over on the Mayflower.)

Edwards' postmillennialism was the natural and coherent outcome of his reformed theological scheme. If you're reformed you can pick fewer better perspectives than his.

However, I would also point out the Calvinist's prototype (Jean Calvin) was not postmillennialist but was, in fact, a historical premillennialist.

So the larger issue for the reformed postmillennialist is:

How to do you reconcile Calvin's premillennialism?

 

[kyredneck]

None of the passages you listed state that Satan is currently bound when one approaches them in a prima facie reading that understands context and the greater point.

A prima facie approach is exactly the one taken with the passages listed that support the notion that Satan WAS indeed bound, and his goods, the Gentiles, were spoiled. [Lk 4:6]

I absolutely believe that in the millennium Satan will be bound. But you can't postulate that he is currently bound by using a passage that premillennialists like myself see as futurist.

If you will remember, I postulated that he may now be loosed. And perhaps the futurists, yea Christianity on the whole, would be immensely better off if you futurists heeded the words of Christ and “seal not up the words of this book for the time is at hand”, instead of unwisely relegating it all to the future.

No, I disagree with this completely. If for no other reason than the bulk of biblical prophecy (whether its Old or New Testament) points to facts and events in the future.

Yea, and the futurists have quite a remarkable track record in predicting the future from prophecy; bookoo filthy lucre has been made by sensationalizing it, but, that’s what folks want, exciting entertainment, it sure sells, and I know it makes for sermons that are bound to please.

“Only fools and madmen are positive in their interpretations of the apocalypse.” C.H. Spurgeon

“Experience teaches that the interpretation of unfulfilled prophecy is exceedingly precarious. There is every reason to believe that the predictions concerning the second advent of Christ, and the events that are to attend and follow it, will disappoint the expectations of commentators, as the expectations of the Jews were disappointed in the manner in which the prophecies concerning the first advent were accomplished.” Charles Hodge

"In the New Testament prophecies are not made to point to facts, but facts to point back to prophecies." Alfred Edersheim

I’ll stick with Al’s rule, it’s much more solid ground.

The pattern of prophecy established in the Old Testament carries through to the New Testament in form and efficacy.

OK. See Hodges’ quote above. We weren’t given prophecies so that we can be prophets.

But thank God, this has been occurring down through the ages:

And beginning from Moses and from all the prophets, he interpreted to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. Lu 24:27 [Finally! After the fact!]

I would love to have heard that discourse (in English of course).

If it doesn't you'll have to show us how that isn't the case and how, using instances of fulfilled NT prophecy (specifically that used by Jesus) where your point is found.

…and my point being, we weren’t given prophecies so that we can be prophets.

It seems to me when Jesus said that He would be crucified and resurrected that was a prophecy of His own life that came about literally and factually.

Yea, and the disciples still struggled to believe and understand it even after the resurrection. It was not till AFTER THE FACT that they finally got it, not BEFORE; “But we hoped that it was he who should redeem Israel”.

I'm not dismissing the advances for the Gospel, but I am saying that we are not seeing and will not see a worldwide evangelization event that is ushering in the Kingdom of God.

What you’re saying is you’re looking for a mount that might be touched with the hand and seen with the eye.

You, and our other postmil friends..

In my first post I stated that I probably would not qualify as a post-mil, but there is much that I agree with; to me, in its’ broadest sense, post-mil is ‘the next coming of Christ’ AFTER the millennial reign:

….Christ`s, at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be abolished is death. 1 Cor 15:23-26

The passage is quite clear, He has already been reigning in His kingdom at ‘the next coming’.

..still haven't reconciled my points about

These basically are YOUR objections due to your refusal to accept the plain time referents that have been given to us.

- Significant evil and sin within the world today

Are you one to say, ‘the devil made me do it’?

Understand that modern mass media pushing bad news can make it seem a lot worse than it was, or is.

- The lack of complete destruction of Judaism in AD 70, destroying the Temple doesn't equal destroying Judaism

I might come back to this later; frankly I don’t understand what your hang up on this is. It’s quite clear that the Harlot was not destroyed but left to be tormented by the seventh head w/ten horns of the beast. Edersheim delves somewhat into Judaism AFTER the destruction of Jerusalem,and how Babylon (imagine that) replaced Jerusalem as the epicenter of their religion.

- The significant amount of persecution that early Christians went through, I don't think 20,000 being killed by Diocletian is a small number, after AD 70

And the beast and it's 7th head w/ ten horns made war with the Lamb.

- That to get a growing Kingdom ethic in the world you have to partner with the Roman Catholic Church to see it as the vessel for ushering in God's Kingdom from AD 313 to 1517

Not a doubt in my mind the 7th head w/ ten horns was an instrument 'like an iron rod' in taming the barbarians. But, ‘they are not all Christs’, who are of Christianity’. Ro 9:6

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Ooooooo Larry :laugh:

 

[Protestant]

Living in a Post-Millennial World

As I type this, I enjoy air conditioning, a Subway turkey sandwich, freedom, security and no fear of invasion. I live in a nation founded upon Christian principles which is blessed beyond measure. The POOREST of us live in air conditioned homes and have cable TV.

There you have it. With turkey sandwich in hand and mouth, this fearless Bible scholar has just made one of the most precise summaries ever: defining biblical Christianity as Jesus would have us live it.

I do feel the author left out one minor comfort, however.

I don't just want cable........I WANT MY MTV!