Post-mil is right

[preachinjesus]

Hello Pj

:wavey: thanks for keeping things civil, I enjoy our conversations.

Though I might not reply to everything you stated, I have read it and thought about it.

All postmill books I have looked at deny this quite emphatically.The know the outward reformation is not going to work.They all with one voice stress that new birth and the spread of the gospel is the only hope for mankind.

What has been interesting over the last fifty years is the remote places where postmillennialism has been growing (most often in either highly reformed or highly liberal schools of thought) has forced a reformulation of its perspectives.

If we look back more than 100 years ago, we see that postmillennial thought is more like I'm describing than how it is being suggested today.

In my PhD research I took a seminar on the book of Revelation and its interpretive matrix. Though the professor had a perspective different than mine, we were able to explore postmillennialism quite a bit. It is odd that it is making a come back now, though with the neo-reformed movement gaining so much momentum I'm not that surprised.

PJ....let's say that Jesus does not return for 37,000 yrs.Many things you are thinking about could be much different by then.

Well certainly, in 37,000 years we'll have thoroughly ruined this planet and be living elsewhere I imagine.

That said, this provides us with our larger perspective, which I appreciate, and that is, in 37,000 years the book of Revelation will still primarily interpreted through several key forms. Postmillennialism suffers hermeneutically from not being able to approach its own interpretive form with consistency.

I think if we focus on Scripture and how we see and understand the millennium, we see there is less evidence for the postmillennial perspective than the other two.

I have only read two of his books.....so I am not able to judge his body of work....but I have not seen anyone critique Days of Vengeance...effectively.

I haven't read Days of Vengeance fully enough to critique it at length and my current projects create no space for me to take up the text.

I will say that I know the writer and will stand by my critique of him. He's not a scholar and he's not reputable.

So, I guess my challenge remains: show me a reputable scholar in New Testament who has written a commentary on Revelation that advocate the postmillennial position.

I've read the entire field and don't know of one. The postmillennial position suffers in two areas:

1) A lack of critical scholarship that promotes it through reasoned commentary
2) A lack of consistent hermeneutical method in approaching Scripture

He was very through in matching OT texts to Nt historical fulfillments, and did suggest a framework for rev 1-19 that would show how most things were fulfilled ,even if he has not got everything right, he addressed tons more Ot scriptures than most other eschatological writers I have read.

I'm not a futurist when it comes to Revelation 2-18. I've stated that plenty of times around here.

However, you can't read the text of Revelation 4-18 and only apply a postmillennial scope. Things keep getting worse and worse. They aren't getting better.

Then you come to Revelation 20 and you have to make a massive decision: the text clearly portrays Jesus as returning before the millennium and the subsequent events align with a premillennial position far more coherently than with any other system.

When taken in light of the Olivet Discourse and the Pauline eschatological schema presented (most specifically) in the Thessalonian letters, you have to answer the interpretive issues. The postmillennial position lacks a sufficient hermeneutical approach to rationalize these passages.

Now you can make a move like Luke has attempted and say that Jesus return in AD 70...but that is highly problematic theologically.

Pj....I am leaning toward postmill, or optimistic Amill at this point in my studies....

Well I pray mercies and wisdom on your continued study.

Jesus ....did not physically return to earth in 70ad.....but he did "come in Judgement" upon apostate Israel......fulfilling Deut 28-33....in Mt 20-25.... and most all of MT 24 was fulfilled at that time....in that the theocracy was destroyed ,and the Christian Israel...[Jesus as head of His church....elect remnant of Israel ,elect gentiles grafted in}

I believe He physically ...returns, comes back,...ON THE LAST DAY ...as he said in JN 6..... The rapture is the last day, followed by the White Throne Judgement,and the eternal state....Jesus is reigning NOW....from heaven, in the MIDST of His enemies...He reigns until He delivers the Kingdom up to the Father..

Now this is a rather important issue.

Does Jesus come back once or twice?

Why would Jesus come back spiritually but not literally?

How does Jesus describe His return in the NT? It's always physically.

The only, the only interpretive option you have considering Jesus' return is physical.

Now we can make the move that Jesus returned "spiritually" but why is the Church still here? The coming in judgment is difficult because Israel disappears as a nation in the NT era. The only thing that is left is the Jewish peoples and they continued existing until today, so they haven't been judged.

Of course then you have to reconcile the dating of Revelation. Which simply can't be prior to AD 70. There's too much evidence internally and externally that prohibit such a dating.

No...the events of Revelation were given primarily to the 7 churches instructing them as to a few main ideas....

Yeah, you really can't make this move because it clearly isn't limited to the 7 churches of Asia Minor.

You have the circular letter to the 7 churches, and then a new scene appears in Revelation 4 which is marked by a repositioning of John and we find him "en pneumati" (in the Spirit) and it reminds us of the commission of Revelation 1 and expands it to all churches which is spoken of in Rev 4:1 with the expansion of the perspective "genesthai meta tauta." (after these things.)

Of course, then we're left with Revelation 19-22.

Are we really saying the New Jerusalem has arrived?

You are welcome:wavey: Pj....I am not an expert on this by any means.I have found these things out while at one time opposing them.....

It takes much time and study to even know what the issues are...that is why many only dip their toes in the water,and run back to the blanket, rather then jump into the waves:wavey:

Well, we're all students. Thanks for the reply and conversation.

 

[preachinjesus]

It's curious that non of the more hardline premillennialists are reply in this thread. I wonder why that is...

Matthew 24 COULD NOT BE MORE CLEAR that Jesus was speaking of his return in which the Temple would be destroyed.

So when Jesus says, "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory." Matthew 24:30

He was talking about when He returned at AD 70 and destroyed the Temple?

Jesus was saying it would happen during this very generation in which he lived. It did happen.

Those are the facts.

So Jesus physically returned in the clouds at AD 70 at the moment the Temple was destroyed? All the nations of the earth saw Him return at AD 70 as He described?

I don't deny that Matthew 24:34 (cf. Mark 13:30; Luke 21:32) is a challenge for premillennial interpretation. Personally, I understand the force of Jesus words to be referencing not the generation He is within but the generation described in Matthew 24:19-33. He isn't speaking to the disciples but the larger context of the generation that sees His physical return. The ὑμῖν references proceeding generations.

In Scripture Jesus never separates a spiritual return from a physical return.

Postmillennialists have to reconcile that point.

And I did not say the JEWS were destroyed. It would be helpful if you would read more thoroughly. I said the age of Second Temple Judaism was obliterated.

I misunderstood, thank you for the clarification. :thumbs:

Now, this proves you have no idea what you are talking about. Preterism is not some separate eschatology like amil or premil. Preterism is a sub category of eschatology that people from both amil AND POSTMIL embrace.

...

If you think that preterism is somehow dichotomous to postmil then you just don't know much about this subject.

Preterism is a separate eschatological category. It is an interpretive matrix that informs other positions as well.

There are some premillennialists who are partial preterists.

The challenge for your position is that you've conflated the two things.

But first, you do understand that the vast majority of protestant Bible scholars were postmillennialists before about one hundred years ago, right?

You can't say the "vast majority of protestant Bible scholars" because that simply isn't the case. More were amillennial that postmillennial.

Though postmillennialism did enjoy a substantive position between the 1700s and early 1900s, it wasn't the default position of the vast majority of biblical scholars.

If you have to ask what it looks like then that is a clear indicator that you are not educated on this subject.

Any truly eschatalogically knowledgeable person knows what it looks like whether they agree with it or not.

Well thanks for letting me know you don't believe I'm well educated.

In a world with hundreds of millions of more people in it you would EXPECT for there to be more people to die in wars.

Think in terms of percentages. I should not have to tell you that.

You take all the people who have died in wars, genocide, political oppression and persecution over the last 100 years and you place them besides all the people who died in wars, genocide, political oppression and persecution since the first century and you have far more people who have died in the last 100 years than ever before.

Provide the Latin word for homosexual that was used in the first century.

Enter the Jeopardy theme song....

I didn't say anything about Latin, I said in the first century. Do you really think the Romans only spoke and used Latin words?

As I have proven, not only is your research pathetic but your understanding of this subject is invincibly deficient.

Again, thanks for such an affirming statement about what I do or do not know.

The world is not there yet, PJ. Obviously I am not saying we've arrived. But the undeniable fact is that life on Earth in 2013 AD is unspeakably better than life on Earth in 13 AD.

So perhaps the larger issue here is: when we're talking about making the world better in terms of the eschatological schematization, are we talking about incidental conveniences or are we talking about Kingdom advance across the world?

The postmillennial position asserts that as we make the world a better place for the Gospel and the Kingdom of God we continue to usher in the eschaton. To create heaven on earth allows Jesus to easily welcomed into the world.

Yet, when we read the New Testament and its texts about eschatology, Jesus returns at a moment of severe unrest and amid terrible circumstances globally. If we move out of the Olivet Discourse (which isn't necessary) we move to

One of the largest promoters of postmillennialism at the early part of last century was a theologian named Rauschenbusch. He is, largely, credited formulating and promoting the Social Gospel. The entire idea (which is easily read in the book In His Steps) is that as we make the world a better place we make it more and more ready to receive Jesus into a utopia of idealism.

Marcellus Kik has noted this about postmillennialism: "The postmillennialist looks for a fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecies of a glorious age of the church upon earth through the preaching of the gospel under the power of the Holy Spirit. He looks forward to all nations becoming Christian and living in peace with one another. He relates all prophecies to history and time. After the triumph of Christianity throughout the earth he looks for the second coming of the Lord."

Jonathan Edwards described postmillennialism as this: "As it is the glory of the church of Christ, that in all her members, however dispersed, she is thus one, one holy society, one city, one family, one body; so it is very desirable, that this union should be manifested, and become visible....As it becomes all the members of a particular family who are strictly united, and have in so many respects one common interest, to unite in prayer to God for the things they need, and as it becomes a nation, at certain seasons, visibly to unite in prayer for those public mercies that concern the interest of the whole nation, so it becomes the church of Christ -- which is one holy nation a peculiar people, one heavenly family, more strictly united in many respects, and having infinitely greater interests that are common to the whole, than any other society -- visibly to unite and expressly to agree together in prayer to God for the common prosperity; and above all, that common prosperity and advancement, so unspeakably great and glorious which God hath so abundantly promised to fulfil in the latter days."

Lorraine Boettner notes that the vision of postmillennialism is "that the world eventually is to be Christianized."

BB Warfield claims that postmillennialism sees a saved world as the requirement for Jesus' return, "The scriptures teach an eschatological universalism, not an each and every universalism. When the Scriptures say that Christ came to save the world, that He does save the world, and that the world shall be saved by Him...They mean that He came to save and does save the human race; and that the human race is being led by God into a racial salvation: that in the age-long development of the race of men, it will attain at last unto a complete salvation, and our eyes will be greeted with the glorious spectacle of a saved world."

Postmillennialism describes a utopia to which Jesus returns with ease. The New Testament describes a craven world, feasting on its own nihilism to which Jesus returns with judgment.

In all the texts of the New Testament we see the vision of premillennialism as the reality of Jesus return. He comes with judgment and with the sword. He has not yet come.

 

[percho]

Are the nations of the world presently being deceived by Satan?

Since the death of Christ would anyone care to share what percentage of people who have lived and died and those alive today would you think have been in Christ?

More or less than 50%?
More or less than 25%?

If those in Christ are the children of Abraham and heirs according to the promise how would your percentage compare to the grains of sand on the sea shore and or the stars of heaven?

Does anyone other than myself see the feast of firstfruits/Pentecost and the feast of tabernacles as prophetic of periods of time of salvation?

Does, first, preceding a word imply others of like kind either presently or in the future? Jesus being firstborn of Mary imply she had other children later?

If I can think of any other questions I will ask them.

Thanks to all.

 

[Luke2427]

It's curious that non of the more hardline premillennialists are reply in this thread. I wonder why that is...



So when Jesus says, "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory." Matthew 24:30

He was talking about when He returned at AD 70 and destroyed the Temple?

So Jesus physically returned in the clouds at AD 70 at the moment the Temple was destroyed? All the nations of the earth saw Him return at AD 70 as He described?

He returned then. "Coming in the clouds" is prophetic language and prophetic language is almost NEVER literal. It is no more literal than Joel's prophecy about the stars falling from heaven and the moon turning black as sackcloth of hair which Peter said very clearly was fulfilled at Pentecost.

14But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

When ever great anomalies in the heavens are referred to in prophetic language, it simply means that massive change is going to take place.

We still use this kind of language today. "The CEO of Microsoft just made an earth shattering announcement."

The stars did NOT fall from the heavens to the earth at Pentecost and never will. For one thing smaller stars like our sun are one MILLION times the size of planet earth.

When a boulder falls upon a grain of sand we don't say, "The boulder fell TO the grain of sand."

Furthermore there are TRILLIONS of such stars in the universe. How many of these massive balls of burning gas hit the earth before the earth is burned up and obliterated?? All of them?

It is not good hermeneutics to EVER try to make prophetic language literal. Literal prophetic language EXISTS in Scripture- but it is the exception and not the rule.

Furthermore, this is not the first time this language about God coming in the clouds is used of God coming in judgment upon the Jews.

Jeremiah 4:

8For this gird you with sackcloth, lament and howl: for the fierce anger of the LORD is not turned back from us.

9And it shall come to pass at that day, saith the LORD, that the heart of the king shall perish, and the heart of the princes; and the priests shall be astonished, and the prophets shall wonder.

10Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall have peace; whereas the sword reacheth unto the soul.

11At that time shall it be said to this people and to Jerusalem, A dry wind of the high places in the wilderness toward the daughter of my people, not to fan, nor to cleanse, 12Even a full wind from those places shall come unto me: now also will I give sentence against them.

13Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled.

Clearly this coming in the clouds in Matthew 24 in the context "no stone of the Temple shall be left upon another" is consistent with the coming with the clouds here in Jeremiah when God brought Nebuchadnezzar upon Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple the first time.

 

[Luke2427]

Jonathan Edwards described postmillennialism as this: "As it is the glory of the church of Christ, that in all her members, however dispersed, she is thus one, one holy society, one city, one family, one body; so it is very desirable, that this union should be manifested, and become visible....As it becomes all the members of a particular family who are strictly united, and have in so many respects one common interest, to unite in prayer to God for the things they need, and as it becomes a nation, at certain seasons, visibly to unite in prayer for those public mercies that concern the interest of the whole nation, so it becomes the church of Christ -- which is one holy nation a peculiar people, one heavenly family, more strictly united in many respects, and having infinitely greater interests that are common to the whole, than any other society -- visibly to unite and expressly to agree together in prayer to God for the common prosperity; and above all, that common prosperity and advancement, so unspeakably great and glorious which God hath so abundantly promised to fulfil in the latter days."

Lorraine Boettner notes that the vision of postmillennialism is "that the world eventually is to be Christianized."

BB Warfield claims that postmillennialism sees a saved world as the requirement for Jesus' return, "The scriptures teach an eschatological universalism, not an each and every universalism. When the Scriptures say that Christ came to save the world, that He does save the world, and that the world shall be saved by Him...They mean that He came to save and does save the human race; and that the human race is being led by God into a racial salvation: that in the age-long development of the race of men, it will attain at last unto a complete salvation, and our eyes will be greeted with the glorious spectacle of a saved world."

Postmillennialism describes a utopia to which Jesus returns with ease. The New Testament describes a craven world, feasting on its own nihilism to which Jesus returns with judgment.

In all the texts of the New Testament we see the vision of premillennialism as the reality of Jesus return. He comes with judgment and with the sword. He has not yet come.

Why did you ask me to show you FIVE scholars who espouse postmil as if there have been so few of them and then provide three of the finest Bible scholars of the past three hundred years who espouse it???

 

[SovereignMercy]

How many Southern Baptists hold to post mil?

 

[preachinjesus]

He returned then. "Coming in the clouds" is prophetic language and prophetic language is almost NEVER literal. It is no more literal than Joel's prophecy about the stars falling from heaven and the moon turning black as sackcloth of hair which Peter said very clearly was fulfilled at Pentecost.

So prophecy is almost never literal.

Except for:
- the virgin birth
- the crucifixion on a tree
- sold for 30 pieces of silver
- betrayed by a friend
- accused by false witnesses
- disciples forsaking him
- Jesus being beaten and spat upon
- Jesus' silence before his accusers
- the piercing of Jesus' hands and feet
- Jesus being crucified with thieves
- Jesus ridiculed
- His cloak was gambled away
- Jesus' words from the cross
- Bones not broken
- Heart broken and side pierced
- Darkness over the land
- Buried in a rich man's tomb
- Jesus had a forerunner in John the Baptist
- Where he was born
- When he was born
- How he was born
- His escape into the Egypt
- Jesus' resurrection
- Jesus ascension
- From the line of Abraham and household of David
- From the tribe of Judah
- Called Immanuel
- Would be a Nazarene of Galilee
- Would be given vinegar to drink on the cross

I can keep going on and turn it to prophecies in the OT about Israel. All of those prophecies were fulfilled literally.

But I guess almost no prophetic literature is literally fulfilled...except about Jesus....

cuz he's not the one coming back or anything...:tonofbricks:

When ever great anomalies in the heavens are referred to in prophetic language, it simply means that massive change is going to take place.

That is a very general statement.

It is not good hermeneutics to EVER try to make prophetic language literal. Literal prophetic language EXISTS in Scripture- but it is the exception and not the rule.

I'm just gonna let this statement stand on its own and see if any of my other premillennialist friends want to make a few notes.

Furthermore, this is not the first time this language about God coming in the clouds is used of God coming in judgment upon the Jews.

It's only used about the judgment of the Jews, not about His second coming?

Why did you ask me to show you FIVE scholars who espouse postmil as if there have been so few of them and then provide three of the finest Bible scholars of the past three hundred years who espouse it???

Well, I like to help. Kinda goes with my calling.

Anyways, I asked for two specific criteria that still haven't been met:
- A reputable New Testament scholar
- Who has written a commentary on Revelation with a postmillennial approach

BTW, BB Warfield, Loraine Boettner and Jonathan Edwards aren't NT scholars. They are systematic theologians. Just tossing that one out there...

Clock's still running...:thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

preachinjesus

What has been interesting over the last fifty years is the remote places where postmillennialism has been growing (most often in either highly reformed or highly liberal schools of thought) has forced a reformulation of its perspectives.

Yes...this has become a necessity.It is my uneducated opinion that it is popular among the reformed, because years ago-{puritans}...held to it.
Liberals seized upon the cultural and natural elements of it, without regard to the spiritual reality of the Kingdom....and stripped it of it's biblical roots...this is the "kind of Postmill" ideas that are not biblically based , but rather humanistic and carnal....so I also rejected this notion of postmill teaching about 30 years ago.
I like many of the contemporary writers....Ken Gentry, Gary Demar,Keith Mathison. They are going back and seperating out the liberal falsehoods ,sort of how the fundys rejected the liberals also.

If we look back more than 100 years ago, we see that postmillennial thought is more like I'm describing than how it is being suggested today.

I agree there was trouble then.The trouble was liberals think emotionally,rather than biblically....so there seems to be a disconnect with one generation to the next.

In my PhD research I took a seminar on the book of Revelation and its interpretive matrix. Though the professor had a perspective different than mine, we were able to explore postmillennialism quite a bit. It is odd that it is making a come back now, though with the neo-reformed movement gaining so much momentum I'm not that surprised.

PJ.....I spent a couple of years preparing a study using Jonathan Edwards -History of Redemption- as my base. At first I was ignoring his postmillenialism.....but I did see a consistency to it.

I looked at it like......if postmill is correct....we are to be fully engaged in our culture and world to God's glory.
1]worship and serving Him

2] personal and family piety

3] vital church life and growth

4]Kingdom work in evangelism

5] being law abiding citizens of this world ,and that which is to come

6] Make sure we are not guilty of WORLD FLIGHT....which I see in premill and amill thought,although they will deny such when worded as I have done so:thumbsup:.......you know.....lets not polish the brass on a sinking ship, just get to the life boats:

So....at this point...I live as if the postmill view is correct. We are in the Kingdom now....Christ ruling in His church in the midst of her enemies....

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

That said, this provides us with our larger perspective, which I appreciate, and that is, in 37,000 years the book of Revelation will still primarily interpreted through several key forms. Postmillennialism suffers hermeneutically from not being able to approach its own interpretive form with consistency.

I think it appears this way because of the simplicity of it....many of the prophecies have been fulfilled already, so what many see as future do not fit,so we are now to obey the Great Commission as the main activity..

I think if we focus on Scripture and how we see and understand the millennium, we see there is less evidence for the postmillennial perspective than the other two.

We can explore that idea.

I'm not a futurist when it comes to Revelation 2-18. I've stated that plenty of times around here.

However, you can't read the text of Revelation 4-18 and only apply a postmillennial scope. Things keep getting worse and worse. They aren't getting better.

I think that Chilton made a good case for 4-18....that things were getting worse before 70ad

Then you come to Revelation 20 and you have to make a massive decision: the text clearly portrays Jesus as returning before the millennium and the subsequent events align with a premillennial position far more coherently than with any other system.

Where do you see Jesus returning...in REV.20?

Where do you see Jesus reign....on earthin REV20...as John has been describing the scene in Heaven?

How do the disembodied spirits reign with Jesus on earth?

When taken in light of the Olivet Discourse

Postmill see this as descriptive of the literal destruction of the literal temple that they were in....not a future temple

and the Pauline eschatological schema presented (most specifically) in the Thessalonian letters,

1th4:13..is speaking of the resurrection of the last day..letting those who lost loved ones in the first century not worry as we will be united on the last day.
What in the context says anything different or links to rev 20 and the 1000 yrs..I remember trying to link 5:1-9 with this,saying God has not appointed us to wrath.we would not be caught off guard.
I now believe all those verses were given to warn and comfort them as they were being persecuted back then.

you have to answer the interpretive issues. The postmillennial position lacks a sufficient hermeneutical approach to rationalize these passages

.

If you make a list of all such passages on a legal pad..then read them as they are commonly taught,leaning upon each other as a house of cards.

then read them separate as if we were in the first century and being warned by the Spirit to be ready.I think you can see another way to believe and understand the passages..then many of these questions evaporate:wavey:

For example...here is a verse that is used all the time as a prelude to end time speculation...

4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;


That verse was true to them when he wrote it, and yet we claim.....it is just now true. we have been in the last days since the cross.Some understand the last days as the last days of the Jewish theocracy!

Now you can make a move like Luke has attempted and say that Jesus return in AD 70...but that is highly problematic theologically.

I already said I believe it was a coming in judgement as a day of the Lord...
That when it was being fulfilled ...it was the sign of "THE SON OF MAN IN HEAVEN"....in other words the Mt 24 fulfillment confirmed the fact that Jesus was in heaven judging the apostate Israel nationally.

Well I pray mercies and wisdom on your continued study.

:wavey: This is more what this BB should be about...seeking to interact grow, and encourage each other to face the world , the flesh , and the devil!

Now this is a rather important issue.

All theology is.

Does Jesus come back once or twice?

Jesus comes back once on the last day.

Why would Jesus come back spiritually but not literally?

He comes back literally on the last day....yet he tells the Apostles this:
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
How does Jesus describe His return in the NT? It's always physically.

The only, the only interpretive option you have considering Jesus' return is physical.

Now we can make the move that Jesus returned "spiritually" but why is the Church still here? The coming in judgment is difficult because Israel disappears as a nation in the NT era. The only thing that is left is the Jewish peoples and they continued existing until today, so they haven't been judged.

Of course then you have to reconcile the dating of Revelation. Which simply can't be prior to AD 70. There's too much evidence internally and externally that prohibit such a dating.

Ken Gentry makes a case for this,among others.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLLE4srpZOA

Are we really saying the New Jerusalem has arrived?

I believe the rule of the heavens have arrived and we are citizens now.

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

On the last day this:
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Well, we're all students. Thanks for the reply and conversation.

I am also thankful for the honest dialog and fellowship.You have not attacked me, or called me names- so i am not sure if this qualifies as an official BB post:laugh:

 

[Luke2427]

How many Southern Baptists hold to post mil?

Why?
__________

 

[Luke2427]

So prophecy is almost never literal.

Except for:
- the virgin birth
- the crucifixion on a tree
- sold for 30 pieces of silver
- betrayed by a friend
- accused by false witnesses
- disciples forsaking him
- Jesus being beaten and spat upon
- Jesus' silence before his accusers
- the piercing of Jesus' hands and feet
- Jesus being crucified with thieves
- Jesus ridiculed
- His cloak was gambled away
- Jesus' words from the cross
- Bones not broken
- Heart broken and side pierced
- Darkness over the land
- Buried in a rich man's tomb
- Jesus had a forerunner in John the Baptist
- Where he was born
- When he was born
- How he was born
- His escape into the Egypt
- Jesus' resurrection
- Jesus ascension
- From the line of Abraham and household of David
- From the tribe of Judah
- Called Immanuel
- Would be a Nazarene of Galilee
- Would be given vinegar to drink on the cross

I can keep going on and turn it to prophecies in the OT about Israel. All of those prophecies were fulfilled literally.But I guess almost no prophetic literature is literally fulfilled...except about Jesus....

Prophetic language- particularly apocalyptic language.

Once again, I should not have to tell you that.

OBVIOUSLY Bible prophecy is true and comes to pass. I did not think I had to be that specific. I thought I was conversing with someone with whom such detail would be automatically understood.

cuz he's not the one coming back or anything...:tonofbricks:

Who said he is not coming back???
What are you TALKING about????

That is a very general statement.

That's what you got? That's your retort???

Seriously?

I'm just gonna let this statement stand on its own and see if any of my other premillennialist friends want to make a few notes.

Yea, that would be best- let somebody else a bit more informed deal with this.

It's only used about the judgment of the Jews, not about His second coming?

Who said ONLY?

Once again, please read thoroughly.

Well, I like to help. Kinda goes with my calling.

Anyways, I asked for two specific criteria that still haven't been met:
- A reputable New Testament scholar
- Who has written a commentary on Revelation with a postmillennial approach

BTW, BB Warfield, Loraine Boettner and Jonathan Edwards aren't NT scholars. They are systematic theologians. Just tossing that one out there...

Clock's still running...:thumbs:

Why the New Testament scholar criteria to the exclusion of some of the world's and history's best respected systematic theologians?

This is ESCHATOLOGY which is in the realm of systematic THEOLOGY.

This is not exegesis.

 

[kyredneck]

I'm gonna hate myself for this...

"In the New Testament prophecies are not made to point to facts, but facts to point back to prophecies." Edersheim

....Is Satan currently bound?...

He was, the spread of Christianity throughout the Gentiles points to that. Christ did 'bind the strong man and spoil his goods', He did destroy the works of the Devil. However, 'it must needs be' that Satan be loosed for a while:

3 and cast him into the abyss, and shut it, and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years should be finished: after this he must be loosed for a little time.
7 And when the thousand years are finished, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, Rev 20

Considering the 19th century as a 'century of emancipation', where much of the turmoil, upheaval, and violence of the 20th century had it's roots, the time on the eschatological clock may be much later than many realize. The spread of communism/Marxism alone in the 20th century resulted in the persecution and murder of millions of innocents around the globe, and it's influence is very much apparent in our own political system and threatens our very liberties, and is contrary in everyway to the religion of Jesus Christ. The 'camp of the Saints' may very well be encompassed now, today.

(Can't get much more 'post-mil' than that, now can you?)

 

[saturneptune]

The thinking that the world will just get better and better and one day Christ will just waltz in and be given the kingdoms without a fight is counter to Scriptures.

That some would actually believe such is truly sad, yet not to be unexpected.

At my age, it is no longer an issue to argue over.

Christ will come, I will ascend after those buried, and you can look for me in my new body when He returns at the BEGINNING of the Millennial reign.

Those who desire to endure the years of tribulation may want to do what evangelist Jim Lyons suggests in the sermon, "What to do if you miss the rapture" - by as many cases of strong drink that can be found and have at it - for such are with no hope.

This is one subject that I cannot debate anyone, as my views have changed quite a bit over the years. In fact, when I post in these threads, it is for the purpose of learning, not arguing. Not really know how much older you are than me, you probably have a better perspective from having lived more history than me. When Hal Lindsey came out with his series of books such as "The Late, Great Planet Earth" I was barely out of high school, but thought this guy had end times down pat.

We got a pastor in the mid 70s that challenged the congregation to find a specific passage that proved beyond a doubt that the Rapture occurred, and that is occurred before a tribulation. No one could do it, without interpreting the verses in a certain manner. (Thes, Cor, Rev 4:1 etc). After growing older, reading some of his other books, along with the Left Behind series, I get the sense Mr. Lindsey was more interested in royalties than giving hope about a glorious future.

At first, I only questioned the order of events in relation to the Tribulation. When the idea of different types of millenniums started to enter my thoughts, it really became confusing.
I admire the fact you are secure in your views, which, from your post, I assume is pre trib, pre mil. In the end, regardless, yes, we will see you in your glorified body. Personally, I hope you are correct, and the "Rapture" is soon.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

This is one subject that I cannot debate anyone, as my views have changed quite a bit over the years. In fact, when I post in these threads, it is for the purpose of learning, not arguing. Not really know how much older you are than me, you probably have a better perspective from having lived more history than me. When Hal Lindsey came out with his series of books such as "The Late, Great Planet Earth" I was barely out of high school, but thought this guy had end times down pat.

We got a pastor in the mid 70s that challenged the rcongregation to find a specific passage that proved beyond a doubt that the Rapture occurred, and that is occurred before a tribulation. No one could do it, without interpreting the verses in a certain manner. (Thes, Cor, Rev 4:1 etc). After growing older, reading some of his other books, along with the Left Behind series, I get the sense Mr. Lindsey was more interested in royalties than giving hope about a glorious future.

At first, I only questioned the order of events in relation to the Tribulation. When the idea of different types of millenniums started to enter my thoughts, it really became confusing.
I admire the fact you are secure in your views, which, from your post, I assume is pre trib, pre mil. In the end, regardless, yes, we will see you in your glorified body. Personally, I hope you are correct, and the "Rapture" is soon.

Put your faith & trust where it belongs.....in Jesus & stop this speculation nonsence. Your belief in him will not return void:godisgood:

 

[preachinjesus]

Apologies for the brief delay, I wanted to find time to give these posts the appropriate attention.

PJ.....I spent a couple of years preparing a study using Jonathan Edwards -History of Redemption- as my base. At first I was ignoring his postmillenialism.....but I did see a consistency to it.

Well if you're going to develop a thorough understanding of postmillennialism, Edwards is certainly a great help. His coherency, as you mentioned, is certainly helpful.

I looked at it like......if postmill is correct....we are to be fully engaged in our culture and world to God's glory.
1]worship and serving Him

2] personal and family piety

3] vital church life and growth

4]Kingdom work in evangelism

5] being law abiding citizens of this world ,and that which is to come

6] Make sure we are not guilty of WORLD FLIGHT....which I see in premill and amill thought,although they will deny such when worded as I have done so:thumbsup:.......you know.....lets not polish the brass on a sinking ship, just get to the life boats:

This would be a good articulation of what postmillennialism expects. However, I would point out that the picture of the eschatological return that is given in the New Testament is anything but a push towards utopia. This is one of the greatest challenges to the postmillennial position. How can we be expecting things to get better and better, when Christ's return is predicated upon things getting worse and worse as described in Scripture?

So....at this point...I live as if the postmill view is correct. We are in the Kingdom now....Christ ruling in His church in the midst of her enemies....

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Of course you'll need to figure out what to do with the continual decline depicted in Revelation. Unless you make Revelation 19 & 20 about Jesus' victory on the Cross, and the rest of the text from Revelation 4-18 about a historical reconstructionism of the spiritualist framework, you have a bit of a challenge.

One of the keys here is that from Revelation 4 - 19 you have things getting progressively worse and worse with remarkably terrorizing pictures. As the Seal, Trumpet, and Bowl Judgments are unless onto humanity the pictures given are not spiritual but are, in fact, physical.

Jesus returns at the worst moment of the conflict and redeems His Church.

I just don't see that we are in the millennium now.

I think it appears this way because of the simplicity of it....many of the prophecies have been fulfilled already, so what many see as future do not fit,so we are now to obey the Great Commission as the main activity..

We can explore that idea.

I think that Chilton made a good case for 4-18....that things were getting worse before 70ad

And I think this is where we see a limited horizon on his part, and the part of so many who advocate the postmillennial position like he does. History in fact shows us that things continually got worse, and not just in Asia Minor, following AD 70.

The Bar Kohkba Rebellion being one of the key instances. Having substantial work in the history of this phase, I don't know how anyone can look at the evidence (historically) from AD 70 and through the early 700s and see that things increasingly got better.

Perhaps, if you agree that the arrival and institutionalization of the Roman Catholic brought a new revival of the Gospel across the world, then we can say things got better.

However, I don't see things having gotten better following AD 70. In fact, I would say for Christians, things got substantially worse. The Neronic Persecution was nothing like subsequent ones in terms of extent of reach geographically. The Diocletian Persecution alone saw over 20,000 Christians murdered for their belief.

So, I just don't see that things had gotten better following AD 70.

Where do you see Jesus returning...in REV.20?

Where do you see Jesus reign....on earthin REV20...as John has been describing the scene in Heaven?

Well Jesus had already returned in Revelation 19:11-16 following the events.

In Revelation 19:17-21 Satan and his armies are defeated and in Revelation 20, Satan is then bound.

Now, I'll reply to kyredneck about this more specifically, but I simply cannot look at this world and cannot have had the experiences I've had and those I've heard about from credible friends and believe Satan is bound.

How do the disembodied spirits reign with Jesus on earth?

Who says anything about disembodied spirits? I don't believe its disembodied spirits.

Postmill see this as descriptive of the literal destruction of the literal temple that they were in....not a future temple

Yeah, the temple is a difficult issue regardless of your eschatological scheme.

1th4:13..is speaking of the resurrection of the last day..letting those who lost loved ones in the first century not worry as we will be united on the last day.
What in the context says anything different or links to rev 20 and the 1000 yrs..I remember trying to link 5:1-9 with this,saying God has not appointed us to wrath.we would not be caught off guard.
I now believe all those verses were given to warn and comfort them as they were being persecuted back then.

I don't disagree that with your statement about 1 Thess 4:13-18, so long as we note that in Revelation it occurs just prior to the Millennial Reign.

Perhaps we're trying too hard to link together passages of Revelation 5 with that of 20. Depending on your read of Revelation 4-19, specifically the linearity of it, these can be easily reconciled with a circular or repeated approach.

If you make a list of all such passages on a legal pad..then read them as they are commonly taught,leaning upon each other as a house of cards.

then read them separate as if we were in the first century and being warned by the Spirit to be ready.I think you can see another way to believe and understand the passages..then many of these questions evaporate

Well perhaps we should sit down and do this in a subsequent post. As you'll see in my reply to Luke, the NT prophetic pattern is no different than the OT prophetic pattern. Why should it be? Why should all of these verses suddenly become about spiritual fulfillment? The consistent hermeneutic applied to the NT passages about the end times lends itself to understanding a future fulfillment in the literal sense. It is the same hermeneutical pattern that we use when describing the Messianic prophecies of the OT.

For example...here is a verse that is used all the time as a prelude to end time speculation...

4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

That verse was true to them when he wrote it, and yet we claim.....it is just now true. we have been in the last days since the cross.Some understand the last days as the last days of the Jewish theocracy!

Well verse 3 provides an appropriate contextual device to limit the passage to an appropriate context. However, Paul is also noting that in persecution there will be those who flee their calling in Christ. This clearly happened in the subsequent generations that saw substantial persecution in the Church up until today.

One of the larger challenges with Paul's eschatology in the Pastoral Epistles is he moves from a specific focus of immanence to a more general approach of far later realization as compared to his earlier letters. This language of "the later times" in fairly general. We should also note that it carries through in the Petrine literature and even in Jude.

We also have a tendency to overestimate the role of the Jewish theocracy. What the Romans did the Christians following AD 70 was far worse than anything the Jews had ever done to them. The Jewish leaders were pretty tied down with what they could do, and they did persecute, but nothing compares to the persecutions of the second and third centuries.

I already said I believe it was a coming in judgement as a day of the Lord...
That when it was being fulfilled ...it was the sign of "THE SON OF MAN IN HEAVEN"....in other words the Mt 24 fulfillment confirmed the fact that Jesus was in heaven judging the apostate Israel nationally.

The challenge here is that though the Temple was destroyed in AD 70 the Jewish Temple period technically extends for a bit longer. (Second Temple being a loose term for the synagogal system established in Ezra's reforms.) I don't see how Jesus sat in judgment for one day and then suddenly accomplished everything that Revelation (a book clearly written post-AD 90) describes.

Even greater a challenge is the continuation of the Jewish religious ruling class that lasted for several generations even through the Bar Kokhba rebellion. If Jesus really sat in complete judgment (I wouldn't suspect Jesus' judgment being anything but complete) why would the Jewish religious ruling class continue in its establishment for another 300+ years?

This is more what this BB should be about...seeking to interact grow, and encourage each other to face the world , the flesh , and the devil!

Agreed. :thumbs:

The BB just informed me my reply was too long...maybe that should say something. So I'll post another reply in a second.

 

[preachinjesus]

How does Jesus describe His return in the NT? It's always physically.

The only, the only interpretive option you have considering Jesus' return is physical.

Now we can make the move that Jesus returned "spiritually" but why is the Church still here? The coming in judgment is difficult because Israel disappears as a nation in the NT era. The only thing that is left is the Jewish peoples and they continued existing until today, so they haven't been judged.

I understand the sidestep by saying He sat in judgment spiritually over the Jewish ruling elite, but why did they continue to exist following AD 70...and in some ways even more organized than before AD 70.

Ken Gentry makes a case for this,among others.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLLE4srpZOA

The internal language of Revelation, the timeline of the churches in Revelation 2-3, and the external evidence speaking into the book all prohibit a pre-AD 70 dating. There simply isn't enough time for the development of the book to be accomplished.

I believe the rule of the heavens have arrived and we are citizens now.

Really? I just don't see it. The ontological shift that occurs between Revelation 20 and 21 is too massive to suggest that the New Jerusalem has arrived.

This is one of the clearest passages that supports a futurist reading of Revelation at this point.

Where is the New Jerusalem? Now we can say its all spiritual, but where is the Tree of Revelation 22:2 that corresponds with the Tree in Genesis 2-3?

Is that tree established literally or figuratively? I just don't see anything in the text, along with the subsequent language of the establishment of God's Kingdom physically in this world in other NT texts, that says it is only spiritual.

I am also thankful for the honest dialog and fellowship.You have not attacked me, or called me names- so i am not sure if this qualifies as an official BB post:laugh:

We certainly can have a civil tone and still provoke each other. Thanks for that! :thumbsup:

 

[preachinjesus]

Prophetic language- particularly apocalyptic language.

This isn't true. On several levels this isn't true.

Not all the NT prophetic language is apocalyptic. There is some apocalyptic language but it is almost exclusively limited to Jude and parts of Revelation. The rest of the language is a futurist prophecy that correlates to the OT prophecies, especially about the first coming of Jesus over against His second coming.

You're diminishing the role and difference between the two.

Here's an article for George Eldon Ladd (who's a pretty substantial name in these discussions) that will help you out: Why Not Prophetic-Apocalyptic?

OBVIOUSLY Bible prophecy is true and comes to pass. I did not think I had to be that specific.

And the majority of NT eschatological language is prophetic in nature, not apocalyptic.

Here a couple major differences between prophetic and apocalyptic:
1. Apocalyptic literature is almost universally pseudonymous, yet all the NT prophetic literature has cited authors that have historical veracity.
2. Apocalyptic literature uses dualistic theology that approaches the future disconnected from God's ability to rescue whereas biblical prophetic literature links God's ability to overcome and resolve to His sovereign acts of fulfillment in biblical history.
3. Apocalyptic literature relies heavily on visions and dreams for its communication and inspiration whereas New Testament prophetic literature uses the words and situations directly communicated through Jesus and His immediate apostles to make predictions that are coupled with resolutions.
4. Apocalyptic literature focuses on the context of the immediate oppression for the writer whereas prophetic literature looks beyond ethnic and national boundaries.
5. Apocalyptic literature generally does not correlate with historic Scriptural texts whereas prophetic literature relies on it heavily.

There are substantial differences between apocalyptic and prophetic texts. To say all NT eschatological prophecy is apocalyptic and then attempt to dismiss its force is an unfortunate move that simply doesn't work coherently.

Why the New Testament scholar criteria to the exclusion of some of the world's and history's best respected systematic theologians?

This is ESCHATOLOGY which is in the realm of systematic THEOLOGY.

This is not exegesis.

Well this isn't true and it is a limited understanding which is unfortunate.

My challenge is two fold. Since the Book of Revelation is key in this discussion, understanding it properly is going to essential to continuing the conversation. So that is the task of a biblical commentator who also takes up the systematic theological task of the text. Now, if you know of a credentialed systematician who has produced a postmillennial commentary on Revelation please let us know.

The best commentaries on Revelation (which is, again, key for understanding this discussion) that will provide a detailed interaction with the millennial approach are written by NT scholars. So the task for you, or any postmillennialist, is to show us five credible NT scholars who have written postmillennial commentaries on Revelation. Its a pretty easy task if they're out there.

Unless you're not up to the challenge...

 

[preachinjesus]

I'm gonna hate myself for this...

Seems to be going around.

He was, the spread of Christianity throughout the Gentiles points to that. Christ did 'bind the strong man and spoil his goods', He did destroy the works of the Devil. However, 'it must needs be' that Satan be loosed for a while:

And this is a substantial difference in our hermeneutics.

I don't see how we can look at the events of the subsequent generations following AD 70 and say that Satan was bound. The idea of binding Satan is that he is unable to do his work on the land.

Yet 1 Peter 5:8 reminds us that Satan still walks about attempting to destroy. Jesus warned His followers that Satan seeks to take away the seeds of the Gospel from those who need to hear it (Luke 8:12.) This is an ongoing act.

Also, from my own experience in ministry I've seen the reality of Satan's actions in the world through observing first hand a demon possessed person and also being involved with an exorcism of a person. Satan is not bound and his demons do continue to go about doing their terrible acts.

How do we handle demon possession? How do we see the rising evil in our world and seriously say, "Satan is clearly bound?"

Just curious.

Considering the 19th century as a 'century of emancipation', where much of the turmoil, upheaval, and violence of the 20th century had it's roots, the time on the eschatological clock may be much later than many realize. The spread of communism/Marxism alone in the 20th century resulted in the persecution and murder of millions of innocents around the globe, and it's influence is very much apparent in our own political system and threatens our very liberties, and is contrary in everyway to the religion of Jesus Christ. The 'camp of the Saints' may very well be encompassed now, today.

(Can't get much more 'post-mil' than that, now can you?)

I'm a bit confused here, apologies, so you're saying the postmill position is that things are going to get worse for the Church?

More than any other person, I'm saying Jesus isn't coming back anytime soon (but what do I know about that) but to say that because we are in such a bad place that we must be seeing the postmillennial reality is contrary to what the basic texts of postmillennialism suppose...that is a growing Kingdom ethic that sweeps the lands and Christianizes the world.

 

[preachinjesus]

I thought there were more premillennialists than me around here.

 

[InTheLight]

I thought there were more premillennialists than me around here.

If they're like me, they're sitting on the sidelines watching you carry the ball.You're doing a fantastic job. I've got nothing to add.

 

[kyredneck]

...The idea of binding Satan is that he is unable to do his work on the land....

No, the idea presented in the scriptures is that Satan was no longer able to deceive the nations:

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, which is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
3 and cast him into the abyss, and shut it, and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years should be finished: after this he must be loosed for a little time. Rev 20

Once again, Edersheim:

"In the New Testament prophecies are not made to point to facts, but facts to point back to prophecies."

Consider the prophecies:

For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea. Hab 2:14

And he shall stand, and shall feed his flock in the strength of Jehovah, in the majesty of the name of Jehovah his God: and they shall abide; for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. Micah 5:4

So shall they fear the name of Jehovah from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun; for he will come as a rushing stream, which the breath of Jehovah driveth. Isa 59:19

For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the Gentiles, saith Jehovah of hosts. Mal 1:11

Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass that, in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Hosea 1:10

And it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of Jehovah`s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. Isa 2:2

All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto Jehovah; And all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. Ps 22:27

Jehovah will be terrible unto them; for he will famish all the gods of the earth; and men shall worship him, every one from his place, even all the isles of the nations. Zeph 2:11

And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven: but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Mt 8.11-12

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy king cometh unto thee; he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, even upon a colt the foal of an ass. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem; and the battle bow shall be cut off; and he shall speak peace unto the nations: and his dominion shall be from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth. Zech 9:9-10

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband. Gal 4

22 And no man putteth new wine into old wineskins; else the wine will burst the skins, and the wine perisheth, and the skins: but they put new wine into fresh wine-skins. Mark 2

1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith Jehovah.
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thy habitations; spare not: lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes.
3 For thou shalt spread aboard on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall possess the nations, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited. Isa 54

And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

After these things I saw, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands; Rev 7:9

At that time will I bring you in, and at that time will I gather you; for I will make you a name and a praise among all the peoples of the earth, when I bring back your captivity before your eyes, saith Jehovah. Zeph 3:11

They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the root of Jesse, that standeth for an ensign of the peoples, unto him shall the nations seek; and his resting-place shall be glorious. Isa 11:9-10

God enlarge Japheth, And let him dwell in the tents of Shem.... Gen 9:27


Perhaps you minimalize the enormous effect and benefit for mankind the gospel has already had to this date.

The strong man was bound and his goods were spoiled.