power to tread on serpents...

[DHK]

Who said they had to refer to Revelations?

THey might have had this one in mind...
Ezekiel 2

6 And thou, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns be with thee, and thou dost dwell among scorpions: be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house.

So tell me are these real scorpions?

Or maybe this one..
Matthew 23
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Were they real serpents?

You are grasping at straws. Did Christ consider his own disciples to be Pharisees, or did his disciples consider themselves to be Pharisees?
Scripture totally out of context.

17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. (Here they are speaking of devils subject to them)
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. (Jesus pictured this in seeing Satan falling from the sky)
19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. (He is putting the serpents and scorpions in the same context as the power of the enemy)

There were physical enemies and spiritual enemies.

20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven. (this is referring to the evil spirit that is mentioned in verse 19)
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight. (I love that he added this verse)

You also like it whenever you get a chance to add to the Word.

THis is the Greek word for serpents in that scripture
Ophis: 3789 o[fiß Ophis (of'-is);
Word Origin: Greek, Noun Masculine
probably from (3700) (through the idea of sharpness of vision)

snake, serpent
with the ancients, the serpent was an emblem of cunning and wisdom. The serpent who deceived Eve was regarded by the Jews as the devil.

KJV Word Count (Ophis #3789)

They did not mention fear or control over serpents or scorpions. They are speaking of something else! Control over the spirits through Jesus authority!

The above is from Strong's. In the usage of Greek Lexicons it is compared to the child's dictionary on the desk in elementary school. It indeed is very elementary.
Thayer is considered a more standard Lexicon for the NT Greek.

ὄφις
ophis
Thayer Definition:
1) snake, serpent
2) with the ancients, the serpent was an emblem of cunning and wisdom. The serpent who deceived Eve was regarded by the Jews as the devil.
Part of Speech: noun masculine

The first definition is the most common and well used definition. The second is (as it is), secondary, of secondary importance. The context demands the primary definition be used if there is nothing to prevent it from not being used. And there is no reason to go astray from the primary meaning.

Since the word used here is "ophis" and is a Greek word, we should study its usage only in the NT, as the OT was written in Hebrew. Ophis is used 14 times in the NT, and each and every time it is translated "serpent." There is no need to give any other meaning but serpent to it.

 

[awaken]

You are grasping at straws. Did Christ consider his own disciples to be Pharisees, or did his disciples consider themselves to be Pharisees?
Scripture totally out of context.

NO! he was speaking to the disciples about the serpents (pharisees)

There were physical enemies and spiritual enemies.

Could be..but from what I gather from other scriptures concerning serpents it could be referring to the pharisees or as Ez. was describing them.

You also like it whenever you get a chance to add to the Word.

Emphasis was added...

The above is from Strong's. In the usage of Greek Lexicons it is compared to the child's dictionary on the desk in elementary school. It indeed is very elementary.
Thayer is considered a more standard Lexicon for the NT Greek.

The first definition is the most common and well used definition. The second is (as it is), secondary, of secondary importance. The context demands the primary definition be used if there is nothing to prevent it from not being used. And there is no reason to go astray from the primary meaning.

Since the word used here is "ophis" and is a Greek word, we should study its usage only in the NT, as the OT was written in Hebrew. Ophis is used 14 times in the NT, and each and every time it is translated "serpent." There is no need to give any other meaning but serpent to it.

They looked the same to me! Lexicon did not add anything different.
Not always do you take the first one. It depends on the context!

Nachash: 5175 Xxn Nachash (naw-khawsh');
Word Origin: Hebrew, Noun Masculine
from (05172)

serpent, snake
serpent
image (of serpent)
fleeing serpent (mythological)

KJV Word Count (Nachash #5175) serpent 31

 

[DHK]

NO! he was speaking to the disciples about the serpents (pharisees)

Let's apply your hermeneutic; your method of translating the Bible:

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
--Aaaaah; Now you have called Christ a Pharisee, since Pharisee = serpent in your interpretation. This is blasphemous, but this type of interpretation leads to, well, fairly stupid conclusions, to put it bluntly.

Could be..but from what I gather from other scriptures concerning serpents it could be referring to the pharisees or as Ez. was describing them.

Again then, Christ was a Pharisee???
As the serpent was lifted up; so Christ must be lifted up. Serpent = Christ.

They looked the same to me! Lexicon did not add anything different.
Not always do you take the first one. It depends on the context!

Yes, and the context demands a literal translation here. I have demonstrated that to you. In Luke 10 they were to go without shoes, barefoot. He told them that scorpions and serpents would not harm them therefore. He promised them physical protection. Why is that so difficult to understand?

Nachash: 5175 Xxn Nachash (naw-khawsh');
Word Origin: Hebrew, Noun Masculine
from (05172)

serpent, snake
serpent
image (of serpent)
fleeing serpent (mythological)

KJV Word Count (Nachash #5175) serpent 31

Serpent or snake. There is no myth in this account, nor would the disciples be thinking of a myth. You have a wild imagination. The Bible was written to be taken literally.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

What I have noticed from this board is that people that disagree with you can not just state their case and say this is what I believe and why....they have to continually bash the other person and what they believe! This kind of debating is not healthy or Chirst-like! The spirit of this board is a strong relilgious spirit!

A pharisee attitude..."If it does not fit my theology, it's not of God"

It is fine to believe different than I do. I do not get offended if you disagree! But the way this board acts and treats others than their own demonination or doctrines is unbelievable! That is not good fruit!

I was raised baptist and still in a baptist church that believes in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit! I am a child of God! I believe He is the Son of God! I have accepted Him as my Savior years ago! We are suppose to be brothers and sisters in Christ! But No love on this board for each other! Oh! Unless you agree with each other!

YOu do not have to agree with my interpretation of Luke 10 and Mark 16! But the continual ridiucule and demeaning of the person is proof that you do not have a leg to stand on when coming to prove your man-made theology! Or in this case even have a thought to what was posted!

I do appreciate those that did contribute even though we did not agree you did not get hostile!

It is you who has a "religious spirit". I'm just not sure what religion.

Man-made theology? Many of us have given you the meaning of scripture in context which you continually deny and/or ignore. You have absolutely nothing to base your views on other than doctrines that were invented 113 years ago. They were unknown before then. Yours is the man-made theology: no scriptural support, and conjured up just a little over a century ago.

 

[awaken]

It is you who has a "religious spirit". I'm just not sure what religion.

Man-made theology? Many of us have given you the meaning of scripture in context which you continually deny and/or ignore. You have absolutely nothing to base your views on other than doctrines that were invented 113 years ago. They were unknown before then. Yours is the man-made theology: no scriptural support, and conjured up just a little over a century ago.

It is obvious that you come to my threads or after my post and continue to be critical of me! Would you like me to go back and post which ones.

Have you addressed the scripture in the OP? Do yo follow me around just to ridicule me?

I have given several scriptures why I lean toward the serpents not being literal!

Mark is addressed to believers! It is part of the great commission! It was not just for the apostles!

 

[awaken]

Let's apply your hermeneutic; your method of translating the Bible:

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
--Aaaaah; Now you have called Christ a Pharisee, since Pharisee = serpent in your interpretation. This is blasphemous, but this type of interpretation leads to, well, fairly stupid conclusions, to put it bluntly.

Again then, Christ was a Pharisee???
As the serpent was lifted up; so Christ must be lifted up. Serpent = Christ.

Context, Context!!!! THat is where you mess up!

Yes, and the context demands a literal translation here. I have demonstrated that to you. In Luke 10 they were to go without shoes, barefoot. He told them that scorpions and serpents would not harm them therefore. He promised them physical protection. Why is that so difficult to understand?

Serpent or snake. There is no myth in this account, nor would the disciples be thinking of a myth. You have a wild imagination. The Bible was written to be taken literally.

So now you know what the disciples were thinking??

If the snakes and scorpions just represent physical protection...then in Mark 16 he is speaking of physical protection on ALL believers!

 

[Thomas Helwys]

It is obvious that you come to my threads or after my post and continue to be critical of me! Would you like me to go back and post which ones.

Have you addressed the scripture in the OP? Do yo follow me around just to ridicule me?

I have given several scriptures why I lean toward the serpents not being literal!

Mark is addressed to believers! It is part of the great commission! It was not just for the apostles!

I respond to you the way I respond to everyone, with facts.

I wish you had been at my home a couple of days ago when I saw a cottonmouth moccasin crawling across my yard. You could either have laid hands on it and instructed it not to pas this way again, or you could have dismissed it as a non-literal serpent, you know, the way you dismiss scripture.

 

[DHK]

Context, Context!!!! THat is where you mess up!]

Now that's calling the kettle black!!

So now you know what the disciples were thinking??

Yes. We can know what they were thinking by:
1. What they were not thinking,
Example:
Revelation 9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Revelation 9:8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
Your allegorical method of interpretation would leave no excuse not to interpret the passage this way. OTOH, we know the disciples would not be thinking of these things for the book was not even written yet.
They would take the passage literally, and not apply other metaphorical passages.

2. The context of the passage--what is the most evident answer.

If the snakes and scorpions just represent physical protection...then in Mark 16 he is speaking of physical protection on ALL believers!

It is evident that he was speaking to the eleven, and that signs and wonders were given to the eleven as authentication of their apostolic office. This has been verified in other Scripture (2Cor.12:12; Heb.2:3,4). But you reject the Word of God. Typical.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I have determined that it's probably best if I don't respond to Awaken any more, that is if I want to remain a member here.

 

[awaken]

I respond to you the way I respond to everyone, with facts.

I wish you had been at my home a couple of days ago when I saw a cottonmouth moccasin crawling across my yard. You could either have laid hands on it and instructed it not to pas this way again, or you could have dismissed it as a non-literal serpent, you know, the way you dismiss scripture.

THe second half of your post just like DHK...is to ridicule!

Show me one post on this thread where you posted anything about the OP scripture?

 

[awaken]

Now that's calling the kettle black!!
Yes. We can know what they were thinking by:
1. What they were not thinking,
Example:
Revelation 9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Revelation 9:8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
Your allegorical method of interpretation would leave no excuse not to interpret the passage this way. OTOH, we know the disciples would not be thinking of these things for the book was not even written yet.
They would take the passage literally, and not apply other metaphorical passages.

2. The context of the passage--what is the most evident answer.
It is evident that he was speaking to the eleven, and that signs and wonders were given to the eleven as authentication of their apostolic office. This has been verified in other Scripture (2Cor.12:12; Heb.2:3,4). But you reject the Word of God. Typical.

Again, I never said they were thinking of Rev. I said Luke 10!

No, I do not reject the Word...just your interpretation!
The signs and wonders authenticated the WORD being preached!

Matthew 10:7-8.
Luke 9:1-6, 11.
Acts 8:5-8.
Acts 14:7-10.
Romans 15:19.

 

[awaken]

I have determined that it's probably best if I don't respond to Awaken any more, that is if I want to remain a member here.

I think that is best! Especially since you address the person with ridicule more than you address the scripures presented!

 

[Walter]

But even they are not totally stupid. Ten percent of rattlesnake bites are fatal, while 25% of water moccasin bites are. The snake handlers don't handle moccasins!

Your right, you don't usually read of them messing with moccasins but I did read of one case and the person was badly hurt. Even still, there are over 100 documented deaths from poisnonous snake bites in snake handling services. There are many people bitten and maimed by them. Apparently, they know the reality of it because so many families have had people hurt and killed. I have read that these people warn that if the Holy Spirit has not directed a person to do this, then you shouldn't do this. I would like to know how the Holy Spirit directs these people. Do they hear voices? I'm not being facetious, I really would like to know what people mean when they say something like this.

 

[awaken]

Your right, you don't usually read of them messing with moccasins but I did read of one case and the person was badly hurt. Even still, there are over 100 documented deaths from poisnonous snake bites in snake handling services. There are many people bitten and maimed by them. Apparently, they know the reality of it because so many families have had people hurt and killed. I have read that these people warn that if the Holy Spirit has not directed a person to do this, then you shouldn't do this. I would like to know how the Holy Spirit directs these people. Do they hear voices? I'm not being facetious, I really would like to know what people mean when they say something like this.

NOw that kind of stuff is stupid! I am by no means supporting any of what you posted!

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I think that is best! Especially since you address the person with ridicule more than you address the scripures presented!

That is a lie.

When you are given scripture, your response shows that you disrespect scripture. You are the worst abuser of God's word that I have ever seen.

 

[Walter]

NOw that kind of stuff is stupid! I am by no means supporting any of what you posted!

No, I know you are not advocating this kind of nonsense. But scorpions and serpents. Literal or figurative? You see what misinterpretation of scripture leads to?

I really don't understand pentecostals. I'm not riduculing you, I have been around a lot of them over the years and I often wonder what they mean by 'the Lord told me' or 'the Holy Spirit directed me'. Seriously, do pentecostals hear an inner voice?

For me, I'm guided by the Holy Spirit inspired word of God and the teachings of my Church. I know this isn't the subject of the OP and I'm not trying to de-rail your thread. I'm just curious, if you would like to answer in a private message or a single post maybe?

 

[DHK]

No, I know you are not advocating this kind of nonsense. But scorpions and serpents. Literal or figurative? You see what misinterpretation of scripture leads to?

I really don't understand pentecostals. I'm not riduculing you, I have been around a lot of them over the years and I often wonder what they mean by 'the Lord told me' or 'the Holy Spirit directed me'. Seriously, do pentecostals hear an inner voice?

For me, I'm guided by the Holy Spirit inspired word of God and the teachings of my Church. I know this isn't the subject of the OP and I'm not trying to de-rail your thread. I'm just curious, if you would like to answer in a private message or a single post maybe?

Most of them who believe the verse, will take it literally, and practice. But awaken is in quite a predicament. She exhibits a fear of snakes (from her posts) and would not try such a thing, but at the same time takes the first part of the verse, claims it as her own, and claims to speak in tongues. It is a very hypocritical stand.

I have never been in a "snake-handling" church (or whatever they may be called), but before I met my spouse, she had been in one, that is, visited one in eastern Indiana. She told me what it was like.

They would, never, never allegorize the Scripture. What it says, they take literally.

 

[awaken]

That is a lie.

When you are given scripture, your response shows that you disrespect scripture. You are the worst abuser of God's word that I have ever seen.

Go back and read your post on this thread!

 

[awaken]

No, I know you are not advocating this kind of nonsense. But scorpions and serpents. Literal or figurative? You see what misinterpretation of scripture leads to?

I really don't understand pentecostals. I'm not riduculing you, I have been around a lot of them over the years and I often wonder what they mean by 'the Lord told me' or 'the Holy Spirit directed me'. Seriously, do pentecostals hear an inner voice?

For me, I'm guided by the Holy Spirit inspired word of God and the teachings of my Church. I know this isn't the subject of the OP and I'm not trying to de-rail your thread. I'm just curious, if you would like to answer in a private message or a single post maybe?

I am not Pentecostal! But I do believe the Holy Spirit guides from within!

The Bible tells us that we need to be led by the Holy Spirit ( Romans 8:12-14 and Galatians 5:16-25). Therefore, it must be possible for every one of us to discern the promptings and guidance of the Holy Spirit within us!

I also believe God speaks to us through other people.
He guides us into all truth!
His sheep know his voice!

 

[awaken]

Most of them who believe the verse, will take it literally, and practice. But awaken is in quite a predicament. She exhibits a fear of snakes (from her posts) and would not try such a thing, but at the same time takes the first part of the verse, claims it as her own, and claims to speak in tongues. It is a very hypocritical stand.

I have never been in a "snake-handling" church (or whatever they may be called), but before I met my spouse, she had been in one, that is, visited one in eastern Indiana. She told me what it was like.

They would, never, never allegorize the Scripture. What it says, they take literally.

But I do not take it as you do! I do not see that it says for us to pick up snakes! My interpretation does not contradict! YOurs does!