PRE-TRIB? MID-TRIB?

[George Antonios]

To all them which believes in suppositions like "be caught Pre-trib" or "Mid-tribe", get ready. The abomination of desolation is on the way just ahead (Daniel 9:v.27-last week), and will manifest itself very soon, so ...
Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to PUNISH the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. Isaiah 26:v.20

Matthew 24:v.7-8
7 For nation shall rise against nation(this will fulfil LITERALLY), and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines (will be strong in whole earth), and pestilences (pestilences is already running), and earthquakes, in divers places.(these earthquakes will be specifics for to happen from now on, in this time of the END, and in divers places)
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

2Thessalonians 1:v.7-12
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2Peter 3:v.9-14
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the Day of the Lord (the seventh and last Day. This Day arrived) will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the WORKS that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be DISSOLVED(yeah, DISSOLVED), what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens (the first and second heavens) being on fire shall be DISSOLVED, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. Amen

Both pre-trib and mid-or-post-trib are true because there is more than one rapture.
That's the truth that solves it all.

 

[church mouse guy]

Both pre-trib and mid-or-post-trib are true because there is more than one rapture.
That's the truth that solves it all.

There is only one rapture in post-trib so that contradicts your statement.

 

[George Antonios]

There is only one rapture in post-trib so that contradicts your statement.

I have no idea what you mean.

 

[Yeshua1]

Oh, yeah, dispensationalism teaches it could be any second.

As does A Mil!

 

[Yeshua1]

There is only one rapture in post-trib so that contradicts your statement.

Rapture in that view is the Second Coming!

 

[church mouse guy]

I have no idea what you mean.

Okay, I will try. The Blessed Hope is the return of Jesus Christ to the earth. Post-Tribbers believe that they will go through all seven years of the Tribulation. They will be on the run from the Anti-Christ, whose kingdom will be the feet of the statue, iron mixed with clay, so there is some weakness there, unlike Rome which was pure iron. The Blessed Hope occurs at the end of the Tribulation and it is the only time that Jesus returns.

Since you live in Canada, let me link a Canadian pastor, Oswald Smith, who left dispensationalism about a century ago, as he explains it better than I by far. Here is his concluding paragraph after his explanation:

My Final Appeal Beloved, the shadows are darkening. The day is drawing to a close. It is now Saturday night in the history of the Church. The times of the Gentiles have almost run their course. Events are fast shaping for the end. The Antichrist will soon be here. One fact and one only is important – Christ is coming. Of that there can be no doubt. One question and one only is vital – Are we ready? We may differ on minor details of prophecy. We may disagree as to the time of His Appearing. We may not see eye to eye regarding the order of prophetic events. But one thing is certain – He is coming. We will be with Him. The Millennium is at hand and soon now we shall know all. Therefore, let us love one another sincerely and labour together “till He Come”. If I am mistaken I will know it then. Hence, let us agree to disagree agreeably. God knows our hearts. He knows that we love Him and that is all that really matters. If I love Him and you love Him, we will love each other. Soon the day will break and all the shadows flee away. Meanwhile I am “looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ” (Titus 2 :13).

The Rapture – Oswald J Smith | Trumpet Sounds

 

[George Antonios]

Okay, I will try. The Blessed Hope is the return of Jesus Christ to the earth. Post-Tribbers believe that they will go through all seven years of the Tribulation. They will be on the run from the Anti-Christ, whose kingdom will be the feet of the statue, iron mixed with clay, so there is some weakness there, unlike Rome which was pure iron. The Blessed Hope occurs at the end of the Tribulation and it is the only time that Jesus returns.

Since you live in Canada, let me link a Canadian pastor, Oswald Smith, who left dispensationalism about a century ago, as he explains it better than I by far.

The Rapture – Oswald J Smith | Trumpet Sounds

I understand the post-tribulation position. I just don't understand what your reply was correcting.
That there is a tribulation rapture is undeniable.
That there is also a pre-tribulation rapture of the church is equally undeniable.
Both are true and witnessed by verses.

As for dispensationalism, I was born worlds away from it, but I thank God today for it as it has cleared up so many Bible "contradictions" for me and strengthened my faith in the word of God greatly.
I've listened to my share of guys who left dispensationalism too.

 

[church mouse guy]

I understand the post-tribulation position. I just don't understand what your reply was correcting.
That there is a tribulation rapture is undeniable.
That there is also a pre-tribulation rapture of the church is equally undeniable.
Both are true and witnessed by verses.

As for dispensationalism, I was born worlds away from it, but I thank God today for it as it has cleared up so many Bible "contradictions" for me and strengthened my faith in the word of God greatly.
I've listened to my share of guys who left dispensationalism too.

Yes, but post-tribulation doctrine does not agree that there is a rapture before the tribulation. You may call it undeniable, but others call it unscriptural.

If you have time, please read Canadian Smith.

 

[AustinC]

That just is not true. Post-trib was being refuted by Scofield and is considered heretical by most Evangelicals and Fundamentalists.

It's still in the dispensationalism camp.

 

[AustinC]

Yes,
Since all these things are thus to be DISSOLVED, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and DISSOLVED (DISMANTLED), and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

As we can understanding by revelation of the Word of God-the Word is God- , the current world of the Devil(Luke 4:v.5-7) will be DISSOLVED (DISMANTLED) as an IMPLOSION. Though it be hard to understand the dissolution of the current modern and gigantic world, I would say by comparision in minor grade how hard was to understand the destruction of the WTC around twenty years ago. Who would imagine a thing like that?

Thinking well, the invisible Coronavirus-COVID 19, has already impacted or partially dismantled the world, even bewildered the whole world, and has troubled and distressed, and anguished the whole world. But the people are sleeping a profound sleep, and they are not linking the last happenings with the fulfilment of prophecies of the END of the times. In fact our God has begun to destroy the world of Devil-the Word is God - and fulfiling naturally in its own time as was determined since ancient times.

What makes me worried even with relation to the God's people(many are sleeping yet), is the own words of our Lord JESUS as is written in Luke 18:v.8, that says: Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
In Hebrews 11:v.6-7 we read: 6 But without faith it is impossible to please God: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him. -->The Word is God <---
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things NOT SEEN as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Matthew 25:v.6-12 - IT IS MIDNIGHT
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
In my understanding it will be very very sad and terrible.

It's generally not a good idea to try connect current events to Bible prophesy. Do so mostly creates false teaching. It's better to wake up and seek to fulfill the Great Commission. Let today be today and don't worry about tomorrow.

 

[George Antonios]

Yes, but post-tribulation doctrine does not agree that there is a rapture before the tribulation. You may call it undeniable, but others call it unscriptural.

If you have time, please read Canadian Smith.

"But now the next meeting was coming. What was I to say? I need not point out that there is no pretribulation Rapture in Matthew 24. The Second Coming is unmistakably placed “immediately after the Tribulation” (verse 29), and I was forced to the conclusion that if the Rapture was to be “before” the Tribulation, the Lord Jesus Christ would certainly have given some hint of it at least. He was dealing with the End-Time of the Age. It is unthinkable that He would have spoken so minutely of the Tribulation without stating that the Church would escape. Instead, He purposely led His hearers to the belief that His followers would be in it. Hence, I was staggered, nor could I honestly defend my previous position."

Any dispensationalist knows that the church and the church age were still a mystery at this point - hence their absence in the passage. That he doesn't even address that foundational principle of dispensationalism tells me he was not much of a dispensationalist, which is why he was so shocked by Matthew 24 in the first place.

"And that the Resurrection is always placed at the time of the sounding of the Last Trump (1 Cor. 15:51-54). This Trump, without doubt, closes the Tribulation."

This is Bible 101. The last trump is not the last trumpet. They're 2 different words with 2 different meanings,
A trump is a sound emitted by a trumpet.
This has nothing to do with the 7th trumpet of Revelation 10 & 11.

1. The 1st trump awakens the dead.
2. The 2nd-and-last trump changes the living.

That's precisely the order laid out, with corresponding thoughts, in 1Corinthians 15.
Paul says he was revealing a mystery at this point precisely because Christ had not spoken of it in the gospels since - and watch the beautiful match - the church itself was still a mystery then, and therefore so was its own rapture.

I won't read more because there are post-tribbers who do a far more convincing job of "dismantling" the pre-trib rapture.

 

[church mouse guy]

"But now the next meeting was coming. What was I to say? I need not point out that there is no pretribulation Rapture in Matthew 24. The Second Coming is unmistakably placed “immediately after the Tribulation” (verse 29), and I was forced to the conclusion that if the Rapture was to be “before” the Tribulation, the Lord Jesus Christ would certainly have given some hint of it at least. He was dealing with the End-Time of the Age. It is unthinkable that He would have spoken so minutely of the Tribulation without stating that the Church would escape. Instead, He purposely led His hearers to the belief that His followers would be in it. Hence, I was staggered, nor could I honestly defend my previous position."

Any dispensationalist knows that the church and the church age were still a mystery at this point - hence their absence in the passage. That he doesn't even address that foundational principle of dispensationalism tells me he was not much of a dispensationalist, which is why he was so shocked by Matthew 24 in the first place.

"And that the Resurrection is always placed at the time of the sounding of the Last Trump (1 Cor. 15:51-54). This Trump, without doubt, closes the Tribulation."

This is Bible 101. The last trump is not the last trumpet. They're 2 different words with 2 different meanings,
A trump is a sound emitted by a trumpet.
This has nothing to do with the 7th trumpet of Revelation 10 & 11.

1. The 1st trump awakens the dead.
2. The 2nd-and-last trump changes the living.

That's precisely the order laid out, with corresponding thoughts, in 1Corinthians 15.
Paul says he was revealing a mystery at this point precisely because Christ had not spoken of it in the gospels since - and watch the beautiful match - the church itself was still a mystery then, and therefore so was its own rapture.

I won't read more because there are post-tribbers who do a far more convincing job of "dismantling" the pre-trib rapture.

Apparently not if you still believe it. It is almost like theistic evolution or old earth advocates to try to change the mind of a dispensationalist. So, no, once again, post-tribbers do not agree with you that there are 2 raptures. It is just not in Scripture. However, I will wave good-bye to you when you leave and then I will huddle with the preterists. Nothing personal, but I will be glad to see the dispensationalists go.

 

[George Antonios]

Apparently not if you still believe it. It is almost like theistic evolution or old earth advocates to try to change the mind of a dispensationalist.

A) At least I read a good bit and took time to answer. That's more than what many do on either side, no?
B) The argument could equally be leveled that you won't change your mind either.
C) You didn't address the counters presented.
D) I believe in the gap but I am a young-earth advocate, like literally all of my friends who believe in the gap. We all reject the notion that earth has been here for billions or even millions of years.

So, no, once again, post-tribbers do not agree with you that there are 2 raptures.

I know they don't. I never made the claim they do. I still don't quite understand what it is that we're arguing about here.

However, I will wave good-bye to you when you leave and then I will huddle with the preterists. Nothing personal, but I will be glad to see the dispensationalists go.

Well, ok

 

[church mouse guy]

It's still in the dispensationalism camp.

No, it is not. It is about eschatology but it contradicts dispensationalism.

 

[church mouse guy]

A) At least I read a good bit and took time to answer. That's more than what many do on either side, no?
B) The argument could equally be leveled that you won't change your mind either.
C) You didn't address the counters presented.
D) I believe in the gap but I am a young-earth advocate, like literally all of my friends who believe in the gap. We all reject the notion that earth has been here for billions or even millions of years.


I know they don't. I never made the claim they do. I still don't quite understand what it is that we're arguing about here.


Well, ok

I thought you said that there are 2 raptures and everyone believed that. I don't.

After 30 years of debating eschatology, I decided that dispensationalism is emotional not logical. So I now just tell dispensationalists that they will be raptured before the Tribulation but people who don't believe in dispensationalism will not be. Doesn't that make sense to you? Nothing personal but you can see that it is like telling old earthers that they probably believed in an old earth for millions and millions of years. Or telling an evolutionists that after seeing them maybe I am not so sure that evolution is false. So that is why I will wave good-bye because you will have won the debate.

 

[George Antonios]

I thought you said that there are 2 raptures and everyone believed that. I don't.

After 30 years of debating eschatology, I decided that dispensationalism is emotional not logical. So I now just tell dispensationalists that they will be raptured before the Tribulation but people who don't believe in dispensationalism will not be. Doesn't that make sense to you? Nothing personal but you can see that it is like telling old earthers that they probably believed in an old earth for millions and millions of years. Or telling an evolutionists that after seeing them maybe I am not so sure that evolution is false. So that is why I will wave good-bye because you will have won the debate.

What I said was:

Both pre-trib and mid-or-post-trib are true because there is more than one rapture.

So, no, I did not say:

there are 2 raptures and everyone believed that

And so

I decided that dispensationalism is emotional not logical

Speaking of "emotion", that may have been why you misread what I wrote and debated something for a number of posts which I wasn't even arguing

 

[church mouse guy]

What I said was:



So, no, I did not say:



And so



Speaking of "emotion", that may have been why you misread what I wrote and debated something for a number of posts which I wasn't even arguing

What I said was:



So, no, I did not say:



And so



Speaking of "emotion", that may have been why you misread what I wrote and debated something for a number of posts which I wasn't even arguing

Please, George, I have been responding to this statement:

Both pre-trib and mid-or-post-trib are true because there is more than one rapture.

Mid-trib and post-trib are not the same thing, as you know. Pre-trib and mid-trib belong to dispensationalism. Post-trib is the historic Christian position worldwide as dispensationalism is only a couple of hundred years old and is mostly found in Evangelical and Fundamentalists churches. Post-trib certainly does not believe that there is more than one rapture. You are wrong to classify it with the other two and it is surprising that you admit that dispensationalism teaches two raptures as many Americans will not admit that. I think that you are saying that dispensationalism believes in a rapture at the beginning of the seven years or at the end of 3 1/2 years and then another third coming at the end of the seven years. Anyway, post-tribbers do not believe that the Blessed Hope occurs before the end of the tribulation and therefore it is not part of dispensationalism.

 

[George Antonios]

Please, George, I have been responding to this statement:

Both pre-trib and mid-or-post-trib are true because there is more than one rapture.

Mid-trib and post-trib are not the same thing, as you know. Pre-trib and mid-trib belong to dispensationalism. Post-trib is the historic Christian position worldwide as dispensationalism is only a couple of hundred years old and is mostly found in Evangelical and Fundamentalists churches. Post-trib certainly does not believe that there is more than one rapture. You are wrong to classify it with the other two and it is surprising that you admit that dispensationalism teaches two raptures as many Americans will not admit that. I think that you are saying that dispensationalism believes in a rapture at the beginning of the seven years or at the end of 3 1/2 years and then another third coming at the end of the seven years. Anyway, post-tribbers do not believe that the Blessed Hope occurs before the end of the tribulation and therefore it is not part of dispensationalism.

We are talking past each other here.

 

[Alan Gross]

In many ways,

Revelation is the most practical book
of the entire New Testament
since it is specifically written to Christians

who live in the post-apostolic age.

...
This means that the symbols and visions we find here

are meant for us.

Therefore, we must make every effort to interpret them correctly

and apply them to our present context.

9.1.1a “THE TIME IS NEAR” Pt. 1
in Section 1 of REVELATION Chapter 1:1 – 3:22 /
“JESUS CHRIST in the MIDST of the LAMP-STANDS.”

 

[Yeshua1]

Please, George, I have been responding to this statement:

Both pre-trib and mid-or-post-trib are true because there is more than one rapture.

Mid-trib and post-trib are not the same thing, as you know. Pre-trib and mid-trib belong to dispensationalism. Post-trib is the historic Christian position worldwide as dispensationalism is only a couple of hundred years old and is mostly found in Evangelical and Fundamentalists churches. Post-trib certainly does not believe that there is more than one rapture. You are wrong to classify it with the other two and it is surprising that you admit that dispensationalism teaches two raptures as many Americans will not admit that. I think that you are saying that dispensationalism believes in a rapture at the beginning of the seven years or at the end of 3 1/2 years and then another third coming at the end of the seven years. Anyway, post-tribbers do not believe that the Blessed Hope occurs before the end of the tribulation and therefore it is not part of dispensationalism.

I was raised up strong Dispy, held to pretrib and second coming view, but once moved towards holding to Covenant theology. still kept premil view, but had to let pretrib rapture go!