I don't doubt your own experience.
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I don't doubt your own experience.
That is also the theological definitions of dispensationalism, one of which I posted above. They believe that there are certain dispensations from God throughout history in different times and places and then they come to the future and they believe that they are not going to see the Anti-Christ and suffer under him because they say that Jesus is going to rapture them out of the world at that point. I plan to wave good-bye to them since I am not a dispensationalist and therefore ineligible as far as I know.
I understand dispensationalism. I also understand that not all dispensationalists hold the exact view you are sharing. Some see the dispensation switching at the mid-trib and some see the dispensation switching at the end of the tribulation.
Whether you can accept it or not, there are many different views in dispensationalism. Some get labeled hyper-dispensationalists because they break up the Bible into even more different modes by which God changes his process with his creation.
Whether you can accept it or not, there are many different views in dispensationalism. Some get labeled hyper-dispensationalists because they break up the Bible into even more different modes by which God changes his process with his creation.
The disarray in the ranks of dispensationalism must be staggering. Maybe it is crumbling after 200 years. To me myself, pre-trib and mid-trib are almost alike but I think that Dallas teaches pre-trib. It is illogical that Dallas would teach post-trib as dispensationalism since it contradicts Darby and Scofield, for example. I do not find any definitions that follow your formula so if you find one, please post it.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Not just "good' Christians, all Christians.
Now how can I be raptured pre-trib or mid-trib when I don't believe a word of dispensational eschatology? I will wave good-bye to you guys, OK?
First, 200 years is generous regarding dispensationalism. It truly is a USA theology that tends to view the Bible as though the United States is the promised land and its citizens are the people of God. It's prideful and arrogant at its core.
Second, the rapture is just a small part of dispensationalism. That post-trib is a smaller view, not in the mainstream, does not mean it's not a part of dispensational theology. It's simply not mainstream.
Third, you are wanting a formula, which is very much what happens when the Bible is broken down into a legalistic document and God is explained as one who continually changes approaches over time.
What I find in dispensationalism is that people say "grace," but then they create legalism as the process of life.
So you don't have any evidence to support your viewpoint.
You can believe what you want. It doesn't matter. No matter the position of dispensationalism, the whole group is wrong.
You have no evidence even defining what dispensationalism is or is not so your statement becomes meaningless.
Problem with Post and Mid is the issue of knowing the day and hour. Only the Pre-trib position makes the second coming unknown. Post-trib in particular makes it easily known.
Honestly, there is zero need for anyone to agree with your version that only pre-trib or mid-trib can only be in the dispensational camp.
I have met dispensationalists who argue whether it's a post-trib or pre-millenial rapture [emoji33]. Dispensationalists become so trapped in the minutia of their timeline that they end up arguing over silly things. I consider this discussion to be one of those silly things you won't drop.
You have no evidence.
Honestly, there is zero need for anyone to agree with your version that only pre-trib or mid-trib can only be in the dispensational camp.
I have met dispensationalists who argue whether it's a post-trib or pre-millenial rapture. Dispensationalists become so trapped in the minutia of their timeline that they end up arguing over silly things.
What prevails is the Word of God. What do Scriptures say?
2Thessalonians 2:v.1-17
ADMONITION - CAUTION
Around two thousand years ago, Paul Apostle wrote to the Church of Tessalonians, because even then there were people that were preaching deceitfully saying that the Lord's Day was at hand. Paul warned the brothers about this false prophecy in that time-verses 1-2.
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Question: And today, after two thousand years, can we say the Lord is at hand , or the Lord's Day is arriving?
The signs we are seeing these days give us an indication of whether or not JESUS 'return is at hand.
WARNING - PERILOUS TIMES - TIMES OF APOSTASY - OUR TIME
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that Day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that MAN of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? (This question is valid also for the current time, no?)
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
THE RESTRAINING - BUT THE WICKED SHALL BE REVEALED
7 For the MYSTERY* of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
THE DAY SACRIFICE WILL BE TAKE AWAY BY HIM
Daniel 8:v.11 says: - 11 Yea, he (the little horn) magnified himself (magnified as God) even to the prince of the host(Michael-Revelation 12), and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.
THE DISPENSATION OF GRACE WILL CEASE
Then, in fulfilment the Word of God - the Word is God -, the current Dispensation of Grace will cease, for the MYSTERY* of iniquity doth already work (2Th.2:v.7), so the sacrifice of JESUS will no longer work as it always worked daily in the last two thousand years(Hebrews 10:v.14), it will cease LITERALLY, as is written, only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
THE PLACE OF THE SANCTUARY WILL BE CAST DOWN
Actually, the SACRIFICE of JESUS SHALL BE TAKEN AWAY when the MAN of sin, the son of perdition(the little horn), sits in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God, then the abomination of desolation will stand in the holy place in the second half of the last week by 1260 plus 30 days, would say the current Dispensation of Grace gets to the END with this terrible and devilish event, and face of the abomination of the sanctuary. (Revelation 11:v.1-2 reveals how will be the end of the FIRST half of the last week (1260 days), and the sanctuary will be cast down)
ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION
Scriptures say Abomination of desolation is about the holy and daily sacrifice of JESUS that has been valid daily in these last two millenniums, and will be valid even until the END of this current Dispensation of Grace. Yes, it will be valid until the abomination of desolation settles in the holy place, in the temple of God, then the current Dispensation of Grace gets to the END.
A SOWER OF CONFUSION
Many people have brought only and only confusion about abomination of desolation, Scripture is not prophesying about sacrifices of animals made in the holy place, be it red heifers, or goats, or pigs, whatever it is, much less is prophesying about demonic sacrifices made by the gentile Antiochus, oh no, absolutely no.
SACRIFICE OF JESUS - VALIDITY TIME
I'm sure you know that Scriptures say Abomination of desolation is about the holy and daily sacrifice of JESUS that has been valid daily in these last two millenniums, and will be valid even until the END of this current Dispensation of Grace. Yes, it will be valid until the abomination of desolation settles in the holy place, in the temple of God, then the current Dispensation of Grace gets to the END.
12KJV - And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression (transgression of the great city spiritually called Sodom and Egypt), and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
12NIV-for comparision - Because of rebellion, the Lord’s people and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown the ground
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake(dialogue between JESUS and Michael(?), How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot. (Revelation 11:v.1-2-the holy city shall be trodden by Gentiles )
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.(HERE ENDS THE VISION OF DANIEL 8)
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
That's not THE tribulation. Thats being light in the world.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Pre trip is inevitable if you are rightly diving the bible .
No rapture, no pre-trib. Just tribulation and then the King returns.
Daniel 7:25-28
He shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. But the court shall sit in judgment, and his dominion shall be taken away, to be consumed and destroyed to the end. And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High; his kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.’ “Here is the end of the matter. As for me, Daniel, my thoughts greatly alarmed me, and my color changed, but I kept the matter in my heart.”
2 Peter 3:1-13
This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you,not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
Rightly divide the Bible, Barry. Know that it is only in the last 150 years that anyone dreamed up the rapture (pre-trib).
timtofly
Well-Known Member
Isaac Newton tried to hold the "dogs" at bay for 300 years? I do not think it worked out that well. This year or next being 40 years sooner must mean his data points were in error and not his math. If he was "guessing" that far off, why not just use a round number like 2000 urars from the Cross? 30AD + 2000 = 2030; the most important day on earth + 2 Lord's Days.
timtofly
Well-Known Member
The 7th Trumpet covers the whole 42 months of Satan's authority. So at the sound the Victory was complete and the sound was to go on the whole 8 days. Then there is an interruption. A 42 month interruption. The 7th Trumpet continues until the battle of Armageddon is complete. It only last 1 hour on the 8th day. So mid and post are not even relative to time. The 7th Trumpet covers both events. No one can prove a rapture happens prior to during or after the 1 hour battle of Armageddon. It is nonsense because the last trumpet started it's blast before the 42 months even started. The battle of Armageddon is the end of it's sounding. All is over by that time. Christ is on earth. It would be a tiptoe, not a rapture into the clouds. Actually all would be on their knees wishing they had been in the army with Christ instead of on earth with Satan. But that all is fantasy teaching about a post event.
Because the 7th Trumpet rapture would happen before Satan's 42 months period if the point is based on John's last Trumpet. Any one crazy enough to listen to a trumpet for 42 months and wonder why they are still standing on the ground, missed the whole point that Paul says they would be gone when the trumpet started to sound, not 42 months later when it stops.
Paul did not see the vision or actually experienced the event like John did. Let's say the church meets the Lamb in the air, but Paul was not privileged to state the Lamb would also hang around for a few years even before the 7th Trumpet was sounded. It is the same event that ends with the 7 Trumpets so the 7th Trumpet is still relative but not exact. Paul does not mention the 7 seals, the 6 trumpets and the 7 thunders. Paul only mentions the 7th trumpet, and that is only assuming the 7th Trumpet of John is what Paul was even addressing.
As for a rapture, there is only one and only one Second Coming. It is the 6th seal event of John regardless of what Paul was trying to convey. Anything else would be an ascension with the Lamb, not a rapture. The Lamb is here on earth with God on the throne to carry out the final harvest. The Lamb only leaves because Satan is given 42 months without interference by God or the Lamb. No meeting of the church in the air. The church is complete and presented to God on the throne at the 6th seal. They church is in Paradise while the final harvest takes place. The Groom is now preparing this world for the last 1000 years. The church is not mentioned as ever leaving Paradise. But no logistics are given after the 6th seal. John only deals with the harvest and the end of Adam's 6000 years of sin and death.
timtofly
Well-Known Member
It is. 150 years ago the shift went even further south than a separation between the rapture and second coming.
They both were always before Satan's 42 months. But some idiot had the bright idea to preach about a nonsense, nonexistent AC that comes first. If the AC comes first then Christ just has to be last. Satan was jumping up and down with glee. Really folks, Jesus Christ has to come last!!???
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