Pre-Trib Rapture; Scriptural or Dispensational Fiction

[Todd W. White]

Answering The Original Question, Part 1

Ok, here's PART ONE of the long answer I have for the original question.

Now, I could not presume to express it as accurately and with better credentials than what I am about to post for you from an esteemed Bible scholar, pastor, and Christian educator of over 60 years of ministry in our Southern Baptist life, so here is what he says about the issue, giving a clear answer to the question originally posed (I'll let you guess who said it before I tell you, lest you who do not believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the church automatically shut your ears down), Part One:


In Matthew 24:21, and in Revelation 7:14, we find the Tribulation mentioned: he- thlipsis he- megale- , “the tribulation, the great.”

“In the world ye shall have tribulation,” says Christ. But the trials and the sorrows that we know in this life are not even comparable, not even the beginning, to be mentioned in the same breath with this era, this period of time that shall precede the ultimate climatic consummation of history.

There is coming, says the Lord God, a time of infinite trial and judgment upon this world. And practically all of the Book of the Revelation is concerned with that final denouement, that great end period of unprecedented sorrow and tribulation.

Now, the question arises, Shall we go through it? Will the people of God be in it? Or does God take us away before that time of indescribable judgment and trial is poured out in wrath and fury upon this earth?

I do not believe that God’s churches will not go through that awful, awesome, indescribable trial and time of sorrow and judgment.

And the reason for my belief is to be found in these four propositions by which I have summarized the best I know how the teaching of the Word of God.

The first one is this:

God’s people, God’s churches will not go through that period of Tribulation because the structural outline of the Book of the Apocalypse forbids it.

God gives His own outline of the Revelation in the first chapter and in the nineteenth verse. He commanded John, “Write the things which thou hast seen.” And John wrote them down: the vision of the incomparable risen, glorified Lord.

Second, “and write the things which are.”

“The things which are” are His churches. Just like now, “the things that are” are the churches that pertain and belong to Jesus. Here is a church, yonder is one, there is one.

It was just like this in the days of John the seer. There was a church at Ephesus, one at Smyrna. There was one at Pergamos and another at Thyatira. There was one in Sardis and one in Philadelphia. There was one at Laodicea. So he wrote down the things which are. And you find that in the second and the third chapters of the book.

Then God said the third, “And write the things which shall be meta tauta” - “Write the things that shall be after these things,” - after the things of the churches.

So when I come to the fourth chapter of the Apocalypse, I read, “After this I looked, . . . a door, . . . a voice saying, ‘Come up hither, and I will show thee things which shall be meta tauta’” —after the things of the churches. John faithfully followed that outline given him by the Lord.

So when I come to the end of chapter 3, I come to the end of the churches. There are no more churches. Heretofore, the church of our Lord has been in the center of the stage, and the messages that Christ has delivered have been to His people. But at the end of the churches, the church is never mentioned again. It’s never referred to. It’s not seen in this earth.

And the next time the church appears is in the nineteenth chapter of the Revelation when the Lord comes at the end of the Battle of Armageddon in glory and in triumph and His church, His bride, appears with Him.

How did she get up there? Because at the end of chapter 3 and before the awful day and trial of the Tribulation, God raptured—the old English word for “took away”—God took away His people from the earth and took her unto Himself. And then the great judgment and wrath of the Almighty fell upon this world.

Now, that structural outline that you find in the Revelation is the structural outline you’ll find in all of the Word of God - for the Scriptures say that His people will not face the judgment. God’s people are delivered from the wrath and the fury of the judgment of God.

The only judgment that the churches, that God’s people, shall ever know is the judgment of reward. Second Corinthians 5:10, “For we must all stand at the judgment seat of Christ, that each one of us may receive the things that [are done] in the body whether good or bad.”

But the great judgment and the wrath of God upon blasphemy and sin and iniquity and an unbelieving world, all of that has been assumed and carried for us by our Savior on the cross. And the judgments that should have fallen upon us, fell upon Him. And to those who receive our Lord, the judgment day is past.

Nothing waits for us but to appear before our Savior to receive the reward of the good of our life. And that is in keeping with all of the Scriptures. Revelation and Romans 8:1, “There is therefore now no condemnation, no judgment, to them who are in Christ Jesus.”

In John 5:24, Jesus says, “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, he that heareth my word and believeth on him that sent me shall have everlasting life and shall not come into judgment, shall not come into condemnation”—Into the wrath and fury and tribulation of God—“but is passed out of death into life.”

In the fifth chapter of 1 Thessalonians, Paul is talking about the great and dreadful Day of the Lord, which includes this Tribulation. And as he speaks to that Day of the Lord, he says to us, “But we are not appointed unto that wrath and judgment of God, but to attain salvation from it by Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Or as the Lord said in Revelation 3:10, “Because thou hast kept my word, I also will keep thee from the great hour of trial that shall come upon the whole world.”

So as we follow the structural outline of the Revelation, we find the church taken away before that awful day of the wrath and visitation and fury of God. And what we find in the Revelation, we find in all of the structural outlines of the Holy Scriptures. God’s people are delivered from it. The judgment, the wrath, the fury, the tribulation, the awesome vials and trumpets and seals wherein God pours out His judgment upon this world, that’s not for God’s people. They’re taken away before it.

 

[Todd W. White]

Answering The Original Question, Part 2

Here is Part 2 -

Now, the second reason why it seems to me that the churches of Christ, God’s people, will not go through that awesome terrible, indescribable Tribulation is found in the exposition of the apostle Paul concerning it.

The church at Thessalonica, the children of God, the Christians at Thessalonica were in great sorrow. They were in trial and persecution. They thought that they were in that great Day of the Lord—that the Tribulation had come and they were in it. And they couldn’t understand, for Paul had taught them that the churches, God’s children would not go through the Tribulation. But they were in it, they thought, because of the awful persecution they were enduring.

So they asked Paul about it. And in the second chapter of 2 Thessalonians Paul has an exposition on that great Day of the Lord. In the second verse in my King James Version it’s called “the day of Christ.” But these manuscripts that follow the text earlier and exactly say “the day of the Lord.” And the Day of the Lord is that great final time of the judgment and wrath of the Almighty that we call the Great Tribulation.

Now, Paul says to these Christians who are suffering, “Don’t you be shaken in your mind or be deceived or troubled, as to that day of the Lord, that day of trial is already come and you’re in it."

“For,” he says, “that day will not come, except first there be a taking away, and the man of sin be revealed, that son of damnation and perdition,

“Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped.

“For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only the one that restrains and prevents now restrains and prevents until he be taken out of the way.”

But when He shall be taken out of the way, the restrainer, the preventer, “Then shall that Wicked one be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth and shall destroy with the brightness of his parousia, with his presence, with his appearing, with his coming.

“Him whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness.”

And on and on he describes that man of sin, that son of perdition called the ultimate and final Antichrist.

Paul says that the mystery of iniquity has been working for these hundreds of years. But he says that great, final, energized kingdom of Satan and that ultimate and final devil incarnate, the Antichrist, the man of sin, that he will not be revealed.

And he is revealed at the beginning of this Great Tribulation, this Day of the Lord. He will not be revealed until the Restrainer is taken out of the way. “The mystery of iniquity doth work now; only he that letteth, he that restraineth, restrains until he be taken out of the way.”

There’s not even an archangel in heaven that stands face to face to rebuke Satan. Michael, the archangel, dared not rebuke Satan, but said, “The Lord rebuke thee.” There is no one that can restrain the ultimate power of Satan but deity, the Holy Spirit of God Who is in this world, Who is in this church, Who is in God’s people, Who is in the hearts of the believing Christians.

And Paul says that there is coming a time when that Restrainer, God’s Holy Spirit in God’s people, when that Restrainer will be taken out of the way. And when that Restrainer, the Holy Spirit of God in God’s people, when He is taken out of the way, “Then shall that wicked one be revealed, that man of sin, that son of perdition or damnation, who exalted himself above all that is called God,” who deceives the world.

And God allows it because they believe a lie and had pleasure in it. That is the beginning of the Great Tribulation, when there is revealed on the world scene this ultimate Antichrist, this man of sin, this Satan incarnate.

Now just briefly to sum up the remainder of the Scriptures, they will reveal to us as we shall follow them that this man of sin, this ultimate Antichrist, appears on the world scene as a man of peace, and as a man unifying all of the diversities and divergences that divide our nations and our people. He’s going to appear as the great deliverer.

And for seven years will he reign. And at the end of the first half of it, at the end of three-and-a-half years, it is going to appear that he is a deceiver and an imposter. And the Great Tribulation is the last one-half of that seven-year period.

And you’re going to meet it again and again in the Word of God. It is called three-and-one-half years. It is called a time, times, and half a time. It is called time, times, and a dividing of time. It is called the 42 months. It is called the 1,260 days. You’re going to meet it again and again.

This is the Antichrist, and when he appears on the world scene and Satan has him all groomed and prepared, God’s people will be taken away. And that Antichrist cannot be revealed, will not be revealed, until first the Holy Spirit of God in God’s people is taken away. And then shall that Antichrist appear.

I think in every generation Satan has his antichrist prepared. And we’ll never get beyond one that is candidate for that awesome and awful place. When you get rid of a Kaiser Bill, you got a Hitler. When you get rid of a Hitler, you got a Stalin.

And when you get rid of a Stalin, you got a Khrushchev. And when you get rid of a Khrushchev, you’ve got another one coming on the stage of history until finally, the kingdom of darkness driving hard has its ultimate and final world tyrant prepared.

And when that final denouement comes, God will take His people out of the world, and the Holy Spirit among God’s children will be removed from the earth.

And when that comes, then unrestrained you will see the riding of the powers of the kingdom of darkness under Satan in this earth. And then will come to pass those days of trial and trouble and sorrow and tribulation such as the world has never seen.

That Antichrist organizes the nations of the world into the great last battle campaign that ends in the war of Armageddon. And one-third of all of the people of the earth are destroyed—and all of them would be destroyed were it not for the intervention of Christ Who comes in the midst of the Battle of Armageddon with His victorious saints.

And the intervention of Christ in history saved this world. And the only thing that saves it now, that restrains it now, is the presence of God’s people in it. The reason the foundations of the world still stand, and the reason this world is not destroyed, is because of the presence in it of God’s people.

There is coming a time, says the apostle Paul, when this restraining, of the presence of the people of God and the Spirit of God in their souls, will be taken away. And then shall those awful, awesome, indescribably horrible days of judgment and of the fury of God fall upon this earth.

 

[Todd W. White]

Answering The Original Question, Part 3

And, finally, here is Part 3:

Now, the third reason why I do not think that God’s people, God’s churches, will go through this terrible Tribulation is because of the types, the illustrations, that are used in the Word of God. And of the many, I choose one our Saviour said in Luke 17, “As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the appearing of the coming of the Son of Man.”

And then again, “As it was in the days of Lot, even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.”

Now, when the Lord destroyed this world in the judgment day of the Flood, first Enoch was raptured before it, Noah was saved through it, and the unbelieving wicked people were destroyed in it - which would be as the Lord uses it here, “As it was”—the type of it, the figure of it, the simile of it, the picture of it: God’s people taken out of the world before the judgment comes, the remnant saved in it.

For you are going to find out as we study the Revelation, that there are uncounted thousands of people who turn to the Lord in the midst of those awful trials and visitations—Noah, who was saved through it. And then the unbelieving, the blaspheming, the wicked who were destroyed in it. So the type of the picture is that God’s people are taken out before it and the remnant are saved through it.

Now, the second illustration the Lord uses, “As it was in the days of Lot.”

Lot was a compromised, carnal Christian. The Book says that he vexed his soul with the filthy living of the Sodomites. But Lot was a child of God.

And when the angel said, “Escape!” Lot demurred. And the angel took hold of him and snatched him out before the fire and the brimstone fell upon Sodom. “For,” said the angel, “I can do nothing until thou be come hither.” As long as Lot was in Sodom, the judgment could not fall. The fire could not fall. “First,” said the angel, “I must take thee out. I can do nothing until thou be come hither.”

And so it is with the people of God in this world. That great final judgment will not come, and the fire and the fury and the wrath of the Almighty will not fall upon this world until first God’s people be taken out of it.

Now if both of those men, Enoch and Lot, are very typical of God’s people in this earth now.

Enoch - a glorious man who walked with God and was not, for God took him—Enoch was raptured, he was taken out before the judgment of the flood came.

Lot - a carnal, compromised Christian vexing his soul with all of the filthy life of the Sodomites, Lot was taken out also before the great judgment day of God came.

Glorious Enoch translated, taken out in the fullness of his spiritual life. Lot, compromised and worldly in the midst of Sodom, yet also taken out before the judgment of God came. It is thus before the great day of the Tribulation and the visitation finally of the wrath of God. All of God’s people—even the worldly ones—those who have placed their trust in Him, they all will be taken out before that awful day comes.

That’s why the Bible says, in 1 Corinthians chapter 3, “We shall all appear before the judgment seat of Christ.”

Second Corinthians 5:10, “To receive the things done in this flesh.” And those of us who have built with gold and silver and precious stones, when that day of trial shall come, our work shall stand and we shall receive a reward.

But those of us who have built this life out of wood and hay and stubble, it all will be burned, yet we ourselves will be saved yet so as by fire, just by the skin of our teeth. That’s why we can send our treasures and our inheritance ahead of us - these gold and silver and precious stones.

That’s the work. That’s the stewardship. That’s the godliness of the child of the Lord. We’re all going to be saved; some of us just barely, like a man running out of his house naked with nothing. Some of us are going to have a rich and glorious inheritance in the Lord. But all of us are going to be saved, raptured, taken away, before that great and awful visitation of the judgment of God that is called in the Bible he- thlipsis he- megale-, the Great Tribulation.

Now, the fourth reason. The first reason was the structural outline of the Apocalypse, how God made it and how it conforms to the structural outline of all of the Scriptures.

The second reason was the exposition of Paul in 2 Thessalonians that before the man of sin is revealed, first God’s people—the Holy Spirit in their hearts—God’s people must be taken away. The great Restrainer of this world must be taken away.

The third reason is that the types and the figures and the comparisons and the similes and the examples in the Scriptures all portray that same truth that God’s people—as Enoch and Lot—must be taken away first before God’s judgment falls.

Now, the fourth and the last reason is this: What is the hope and the comfort to the Christian as the Bible speaks to its soul? What are we to look for and to wait for and to yearn for and to hope for? What are we to look forward to?

Well, there are some who are looking for the man of sin, and the child of damnation, and the great ultimate Antichrist. There are others who are looking for the beasts and the false prophet. There are others who are looking for the great and final Battle of Armageddon. There are others who are looking for the days of trial and tribulation.

But you will never in one instance find that in the Word of God. In the Word of God, in the Holy Scriptures, there is only one thing that you’ll find the Christian is asked to wait for and to yearn for and to pray for and to look for.

And a typical instance of it is Paul’s writing in Titus 2:13, “Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ.” That is what the Christian is looking for.

We’re not looking for the Tribulation. We’re not looking for the man of damnation. We’re not looking for the Battle of Armageddon. We’re not waiting for the beast and the false prophet and the Antichrist and all of the fury of the judgments of God. God’s people are looking for their Lord!

And anybody that interposes anything between the coming of the Lord and the fulfillment of that promise is denying and turning aside from the clear teaching of the Holy Book! He may come any day, any hour, any moment. He may come at noonday. He may come at twilight. It may be at midnight. It may be at the dawn of the morrow.

There is no program, there are no years, there is no Tribulation, there is no battle, there’s no anything that a man can think of that could intervene between the coming of our Lord and the fulfilling of His promise any day, any moment, for we are commanded of the Lord to live in the imminency of the return of our Savior.

The apostles lived in the imminency of the coming of Christ, and we are commanded to live in that same imminency. He will come without a sign for us. His coming will not be announced, as a thief in the night to steal away His jewels, the pearl of price He purchased with His own blood—His people in the earth.

He will come suddenly, miraculously, noiselessly, silently, furtively, clandestinely. He will come to take His people away just as He came for Enoch who was translated. Just suddenly, miraculously, silently, and he was gone.

So it is with the people of the Lord. Any day, any hour, any moment, the Lord may call for His own. And when He does and we’re taken away, that is the great signal for the beginning of that awful time of trial that the Book calls the Great Tribulation.

So the comfort and the hope of God’s people is not for any of these tragic and awesome things. But what God’s people are to look for and to yearn for and to hope for and to expect is the appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ.

The door of the Philadelphian age has closed.

In the Laodicean age in which we now live, the door is closed and Christ is on the outside [seeking], knocking at the end of “the things that are.”

But when the door is finally closed in this world, the fourth chapter of the Revelation begins and a door is opened in heaven. When it closes here, it opens there.

And in type and in symbol John, a representative Christian, and in type and in symbol, when the door was opened in heaven John heard the voice as of a trumpet saying, “Come up hither.” And John, in symbol and in type as a Christian, through that open door was raptured, was taken up with his Lord. And then follows those awful days of the visitation of the judgments of God.

The Lord says we are ambassadors in this world, strangers and pilgrims in it. Our home is in glory. And before any nation declares war, first they bring their ambassadors home. And it is thus when the judgments of God are visited on this evil unbelieving world, God calls the ambassadors home.


-----------------------

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Huh, This is what Dale Moody says:

: "Belief in a pre-tribulational rapture . . . contradicts all three chapters in the New Testament that mention the tribulation and the rapture together (Mark 13:24–27; Matt. 24:26–31; 2 Thess. 2:1–12). . . . The theory is so biblically bankrupt that the usual defense is made using three passages that do not even mention a tribulation (John 14:3; 1 Thess. 4:17; 1 Cor. 15:52). These are important passages, but they have not had one word to say about a pre-tribulational rapture. The score is 3 to 0, three passages for a post-tribulational rapture and three that say nothing on the subject.
. . . Pre-tribulationism is biblically bankrupt and does not know it"

 

[Todd W. White]

I'm sorry, Thinkingstuff, but I I don't understand the meaning of your post at all...

 

[Grasshopper]

Here's where the author of your post loses me:

In Matthew 24:21, and in Revelation 7:14, we find the Tribulation mentioned: he- thlipsis he- megale- , “the tribulation, the great.”

Anyone who takes Matthew 24 out of the context of Jesus' generation and the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70 is on a different playing field than me.

P.S. Go Sooners!:thumbsup:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I'm sorry, Thinkingstuff, but I I don't understand the meaning of your post at all...

I'm just quoting moody who seems to believe that there is a fault with the whole pretrib thing.

 

[Grasshopper]

Here is something that seems a contradiction in his view, he says this:

But you will never in one instance find that in the Word of God. In the Word of God, in the Holy Scriptures, there is only one thing that you’ll find the Christian is asked to wait for and to yearn for and to pray for and to look for.

And a typical instance of it is Paul’s writing in Titus 2:13, “Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ.” That is what the Christian is looking for.

We’re not looking for the Tribulation. We’re not looking for the man of damnation. We’re not looking for the Battle of Armageddon. We’re not waiting for the beast and the false prophet and the Antichrist and all of the fury of the judgments of God. God’s people are looking for their Lord!

And anybody that interposes anything between the coming of the Lord and the fulfillment of that promise is denying and turning aside from the clear teaching of the Holy Book!

Yet as I pointed out earlier he quotes from Matthew 24:

In Matthew 24:21, and in Revelation 7:14, we find the Tribulation mentioned: he- thlipsis he- megale- , “the tribulation, the great.”

“In the world ye shall have tribulation,” says Christ. But the trials and the sorrows that we know in this life are not even comparable, not even the beginning, to be mentioned in the same breath with this era, this period of time that shall precede the ultimate climatic consummation of history.

Jesus is speaking to His disciples in Matthew 24:

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said to them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Nowhere in the passage does Jesus change audiences.

He does in fact tell His Disciples to be on the look out:

Mat 24:33 So you, likewise, when you see all these things, shall know that it is near, at the doors.


In fact he clarifies exactly to whom these events will occur on:

Mat 24:34 Truly I say to you, This generation shall not pass until all these things are fulfilled.

Seems very inconsistent.

 

[Todd W. White]

I think he's making a distinction between TRIALS, ie, difficulties, problems, suffering, etc., and THE GREAT Tribulation...

The former we will always have, the latter is not for us...

 

[Grasshopper]

I think he's making a distinction between TRIALS, ie, difficulties, problems, suffering, etc., and THE GREAT Tribulation...

The former we will always have, the latter is not for us...

But he is using Matthew 24 to prove his thesis that the church doesn't go through the great tribulation. The problem is Jesus is addressing His Disciples in Matthew 24 and telling them what to look for during this time and where to flee from. Why should He tell them if the Church is gone?

 

[HankD]

In the OP I asked the question: Can someone, anyone provide one passage of Scripture that definitively supports a pretribulation "rapture", that is the snatching away of the Church from earth, secret or otherwise.
To date no one has provided an answer. So I suggest that there is no hope for dispensationalism

So what?

Must we go down this road again?

I have already admitted to you that there is no one singular verse that satisfies your challenge.

But that admission is due to the fact that one passage that was offered :

1 Thessalonians 4

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

("caught up" from the Vulgate rapio, rapto or rapturo.)​

you rejected this along with other passages that were offered in support concerning the private departure of Noah into the ark and Lot privately fleeing Sodom. Both of these scenarios offered by the Lord Himself as an escape of the judgment of God as parabolic to His Second Coming.​

There is no singular verse for many doctrines supported by the Bible.

e.g. The Trinity. Do you believe in the Trinity. The word "Trinity" is nowhere in the Bible. Do you believe in the Trinity? Is there no hope for Trinitarianism?

e.g. The sovereignty of God. In fact the phrase "the sovereignty of God" is not found anywhere in the Bible. Do you believe in the sovereignty of God? Is there therefore no hope for God being sovereign in the universe?

e.g. "Total depravity" the word "deprave" (in any form) is not found in the Bible.
e.g "irresistable grace" a phrase no where found in the Scripture
e.g. "Original sin" ditto.
e.g "limited atonement" also a phrase nowere found in the Bible.

OR, many doctrines held by Christians are a composite of several verses which have to be compared and analyzed with conclusions drawn from that analysis and comparisons. The doctrine of the Trinity took almost 300 years for the Church to develope and involves scores of passages. To this day professing Christendom is still divided around the doctrine of the Trinity even by Trinitarians (in the details).

The science of Systematic Theology has been developed around the following passages:

Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:​

1 Corinthians 2
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.​

In addition Jesus also enhanced these premises with the following statement:​

Matthew 13:52 Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.​

So line upon line, precept upon precept, some things old (prophetic writings) some things new (apostolic writings).

OK so some of us may (or not) have it wrong as how to order the line upon line and interpret precept upon precept. But most of the details of the Second Coming are not found in a singular verse as is true concerning many of the Christian Doctrines.

HankD​

 

[Ed Edwards]

Pre-Trib Rapture - Scriptural Truth

But he is using Matthew 24 to prove his thesis that the church doesn't go through the great tribulation. The problem is Jesus is addressing His Disciples in Matthew 24 and telling them what to look for during this time and where to flee from. Why should He tell them if the Church is gone?

The mostly Gentile Church Age Church (with some Messianic Jews) is a different born-again, elect set of saints from the Jewish/Israeli elect set of saints because they appear on earth at two different times (In this age and the next the largely Gentile Church is one with the Jewish/Israeli church - in the Tribulation 'Judgment of the Gentile nations' Period

Quoted in post #168 without any Bible Version, Edition, etc.:

Mat 24:34 Truly I say to you, This generation shall not pass until all these things are fulfilled.

Here is how I read Matthew 24 (Scofield does NOT see the pre-trib rapture here):

1. The destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem
Matthew 24:15-20

2. The generation of the Gentiles (Church Age)
Matthew 24:4-14

3. The pre-tribulation rapture2 = resurrection1+ rapture1; the gathering of the Church Age Saints
Matthew 24:31-42

4. The Great Tribulation on the Gentile Nations
Matthew 24:15-28

5. The Coming of the Lord in great glory to whip up on the Antichrist and his peeps
Matthew 24:29-30

Matt 24:32 clearly written and consistent with other scripture, says that the end of that generation (age, the Age of Gentiles, the Church Age) would see Jesus return FOR THEM (they of the Faith)

To bad Dale Moody didn't know about the Polysyndeton* 'and' My pastor got an undergraduate degree from the Oklahoma Baptist University /OBU = Oklahoma's Best University/ - a degree in English then a Masters degree at South Western Baptist Theological Seminary in Ft Worth where they taught a-mill type post-tribulation-ONLY-rapturism which he didn't believe any more than I do).

* NOTE: a Polysyndeton - using a rhetorical devise in a prophecy - how Scriptural


Col 1:26 (KJV1769):
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages
and from generations , but now is made manifest to his saints:

Here are the truths I teach from the Scripture, Col 1:26
*There were ages before this age.
*ages are similiar to generations

My teaching on Eschatlogy (pre-trib rapture2) is found over here:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1344632#post1344632

I get to Collossians 1:26 not only via my Bible Study of 'age' & 'ages' but also via my word study on the 'Mysteries of the Bible" which prove the pre-trib rapture2'.

 

[HankD]

Mat 24:34 Truly I say to you, This generation shall not pass until all these things are fulfilled.

Seems very inconsistent.


Which "generation" and which "things" grasshopper?

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.​

The generation that sees the celestial powers of the universe shaken and the generation that will see the sign of the coming of the Son of Man.

These "things" have not yet happened, therefore neither has "this genenration". He is refering to "this generation" as the future generation which will see "these things".

HankD

 

[OldRegular]

The first one is this:

God’s people, God’s churches will not go through that period of Tribulation because the structural outline of the Book of the Apocalypse forbids it.

God gives His own outline of the Revelation in the first chapter and in the nineteenth verse. He commanded John, “Write the things which thou hast seen.” And John wrote them down: the vision of the incomparable risen, glorified Lord.

Second, “and write the things which are.”

“The things which are” are His churches. Just like now, “the things that are” are the churches that pertain and belong to Jesus. Here is a church, yonder is one, there is one.

It was just like this in the days of John the seer. There was a church at Ephesus, one at Smyrna. There was one at Pergamos and another at Thyatira. There was one in Sardis and one in Philadelphia. There was one at Laodicea. So he wrote down the things which are. And you find that in the second and the third chapters of the book.

Then God said the third, “And write the things which shall be meta tauta” - “Write the things that shall be after these things,” - after the things of the churches.

So when I come to the fourth chapter of the Apocalypse, I read, “After this I looked, . . . a door, . . . a voice saying, ‘Come up hither, and I will show thee things which shall be meta tauta’” —after the things of the churches. John faithfully followed that outline given him by the Lord.

I am not going to try to argue Greek with you. I am sure there are people on this Forum who can do so. However, if I look at the meaning of the Greek words translated hereafter in the King James Version I find, as you say, meta tauta. Using Strongs I find that the word meta is used as a primary preposition (often used adverbially); and occurs 473 times in the KJV and translated with 345 times and hereafter + tauta 4 times. The word tauta is used 247 times in the KJV, translated these things 158 times and afterward +meta 4 times. Based on this information it would appear that meta tauta should be translated with these things, not after these things, but I like the KJV hereafter.

Any interpretation of the Book of Revelation must acknowledge that it was written to the churches undergoing persecution and that it had meaning for them. In fact the opening passage states [Revelation 1:1-4]:

1. The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2. Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
4. John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

John is told to write the things which must shortly come to pass. Now obviously that is on God's timetable not ours. John is further told: Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.. To argue that Chapters 4-18 had no meaning for the recipients of this letter, given the promises, strains rationality.

Now to hereafter or with these things.

John is told in verse 19 to Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter. The command is worded so as to indicate the completeness or perfection of the revelation of Jesus Christ to be recorded by the Apostle John. John is to write those things revealed to him, nothing more and nothing less. In Verse 4 John addresses the book in its entirety to the seven churches. There is nothing in this passage of Scripture to indicate that the Book of Revelation is to be divided into parts dealing with totally different sets of events at different periods of time. Furthermore, there is nothing in the revelations made to John that indicate that the book reveals a consistent chronological order of future events.

If we apply a strict literal interpretation, which is indicated for this passage, the things which are could represent only those events that are ongoing during the time that John is writing, not the entire Church age. The things which shall be hereafter would represent those events that occur after the time during which John is writing, not some seven year period in the unknown distant future. It is stretching credibility to argue that the letters to the seven churches of Asia [Chapters 2 & 3] are the things which are and represent the entire ‘Church age’ while the things which shall be hereafter encompass Chapters 4-18 and represent only a ‘seven year tribulation period’ that follows the ‘Church age’. We must not forget the introductory promise of the Revelation that the Apostle John is to record; a promise that applies to all that is recorded by John.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

John is shown those things which must shortly come to pass. It has been noted above that these things will come to pass on God’s timetable, not ours. However, there is absolutely no rationale for splintering the Revelation that Jesus Christ gives John to record. That is exactly what dispensational theology does.

You still did not answer my question in the OP: Can someone, anyone provide one passage of Scripture that definitively supports a pretribulation "rapture", that is the snatching away of the Church from earth, secret or otherwise. Or like the supposed offer of an earthly Messianic Kingdom am I just :BangHead: :BangHead:

 

[OldRegular]

So when I come to the end of chapter 3, I come to the end of the churches. There are no more churches. Heretofore, the church of our Lord has been in the center of the stage, and the messages that Christ has delivered have been to His people. But at the end of the churches, the church is never mentioned again. It’s never referred to. It’s not seen in this earth.

This is a common argument given for the pretribulation rapture of the Church that I believe is worth discussing at this time. The argument is made that because the words church or churches do not appear after the completion of the third chapter of the Revelation, the Church cannot be present during the events described in the succeeding chapters. The word churches is used eleven times in Chapters 1-3, the word church is used seven times in these same chapters. The word church or churches does not appear again until Chapter 22, Verse 16. However, the term saints is used in Revelation 5:8; 8:3, 4; 11:18; 13:7, 10; 14:12; 15:3; 16:6; 17:6; 18:24; 19:8; and 20:9. The term redeemed is used in Revelation 5:9 and 14:3, 4. Both of these terms are characteristic of the Church, the Body and Bride of Jesus Christ when found elsewhere in the New Testament [Gregg, Reveletion, Four Views, page 87]. The appearance of the churches again in Chapter 22, Verse 16 and the succeeding verse is interesting and informative.

Revelation 22:16,17, KJV
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Notice two things,

1. Jesus sent His angel to testify of these things in the churches, and
2. The Spirit and the Bride, the Church, give the invitation to come and take of the water of life freely.

These are strange statements to make if the Church is inconsequential during much of the period covered in Revelation; is gone during the tribulation period, and Jesus Christ rules with a ‘rod of iron’ during the millennium.

Now we examine the appearance of the words Israel or Jew in the Book of Revelation. The word Israel appears three times in the Book of Revelation, Chapters 2, 7, and 21; the word Jews appears only twice, Chapters 2 and 3, and there the reference is to false Jews. So we see that a reference to Israel appears only once during that part of the Book that is presumed to represent ‘the seven year tribulation’ and ‘Jacob’s time of trouble’. The first time the word Israel is used [2:14] the reference is to the false prophet Balaam and his role in the seduction of Israel enroute to the promise land. In Chapter 7 the name Israel is used in the discussion of the servants of God who are sealed. The next occasion [21:12] the name is used in the description of the New Jerusalem, the Church, the Bride of Jesus Christ. Again, Israel is referred to only one time, and no reference is made to the Jews, during that period in which it is claimed that the Church is absent. Strange indeed is the absence of the words Jew or Israel in the 15 chapters of Revelation written specifically, according to dispensational theology, for them while in the remainder of the New Testament the words Jew or Jews occur 188 times and the words Israel or Israelite occur 73 times. Furthermore, in the culmination of all things [Chapters 20-22] the word Israel occurs only once, that in reference to the gates of the Holy City, New Jerusalem. The word Jew was not used at all. An oversight I am sure.

It is interesting to note that there are other books in the New Testament where the words church or churches are not used. The words do not appear in the Gospels of Mark, Luke, and John. If one believes that the Church was not established until Pentecost, that is not necessarily unusual. It is interesting, however, that the book that many dispensationalists claim is the Gospel of the Kingdom [written by a Jewish believer who collected taxes for Rome] is the Gospel in which the Church is first proclaimed. The words church or churches are not mentioned in 1st & 2nd Peter, 1st & 2nd John, and Jude. Can we then argue the absence of the Church? The words are also absent from the first 15 chapters of Romans and occur only twice in Hebrews. Can we then argue the absence of the Church?

To show that the absence or presence of a word is not decisive consider the Book of Esther in the Old Testament. The editor of the Thompson Chain Reference Bible notes:The name of God does not appear in the book, while a heathen king is referred to over 150 times. There is no allusion to prayer or spiritual service of any kind with the possible exception of fasting. Does this absence of reference to God mean that He was absent or that the book of Esther should not be in the Canon? Obviously not. The book of Esther was written to show God’s watch care over His Covenant people through whom He would bring the Saviour into the world.

In conclusion, there are books in the New Testament in which the words church or churches are not mentioned. Therefore, the absence of the word church in Chapters 4-18 of the book of Revelation is scant justification to claim that the Church is absent during the period covered by these chapters. However, I believe the best argument against a pretribulation “Rapture” is contained in the proper interpretation of John 5:28,29.

Alan Johnson writing in the Expositors Bible Commentary, Volume 12, page 461 explains the absence of the word ‘church’ as follows: “the word church or churches always stands in Revelation for the historic seven churches in Asia and not for the universal body of Christ. Since 4:2-22:15 concerns the believing community as a whole, it would be inappropriate at least for John’s usage to find the narrower term ‘church’ in this section.

You still did not answer my question in the OP: Can someone, anyone provide one passage of Scripture that definitively supports a pretribulation "rapture", that is the snatching away of the Church from earth, secret or otherwise. Or like the supposed offer of an earthly Messianic Kingdom am I just :BangHead: :BangHead:

 

[Grasshopper]

Mat 24:34 Truly I say to you, This generation shall not pass until all these things are fulfilled.

Seems very inconsistent.


Which "generation" and which "things" grasshopper?

The generation to which Jesus was speaking. Find another place in the Gospels where the phrase "this generation" means anything else. The things which he just described and using the personal pronoun "you".

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other

.

See Is. 13:10 for similar language describing the destruction of Babylon centuries ago. Never meant to be interpreted in a literal manner.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

What does "nigh" mean?

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Who is the "ye"?

These "things" have not yet happened, therefore neither has "this genenration". He is refering to "this generation" as the future generation which will see "these things".

HankD

They did happen so there's no need to play around with the words.

Charles Spurgeon

Commenting on Matthew 24:32-33

"Our Lord here evidently returns to often made use of its illuminated the subject of the destruction of Jerusalem, and in these words gives his apostles warning concerning the signs of the times. He had recently used the barren fig tree as an object-lesson; he now bids his disciples "learn a parable of the fig tree" and all the trees (Luke 21:31). God’s great book of nature is full of illustrations for those who have eyes to perceive them; and the Lord Jesus, the great Creator, often made use of its illuminated pages in conveying instruction to the minds of his hearers. On this occasion, he used a simple simile from the parable of the fig-tree: "When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh." They could not mistake so plain a token of the near return of summer; and Jesus would have them read quite as quickly the signs that were to herald the coming judgment on Jerusalem: "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors." The Revised Version has the words, "Know ye that he is nigh," the Son of man, the King. His own nation rejected him when he came in mercy; so his next coming would be a time of terrible judgment and retribution to his guilty capital. Oh, that Jews and Gentiles today were wise enough to learn the lesson of that fiery trial, and to seek his face, those wrath they cannot bear!"

 

[OldRegular]

There is no singular verse for many doctrines supported by the Bible.

e.g. The Trinity. Do you believe in the Trinity. The word "Trinity" is nowhere in the Bible. Do you believe in the Trinity? Is there no hope for Trinitarianism?

I see the Trinity in Chapters 4 and 5 of Revelation: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

e.g. The sovereignty of God. In fact the phrase "the sovereignty of God" is not found anywhere in the Bible. Do you believe in the sovereignty of God? Is there therefore no hope for God being sovereign in the universe?

The rational mind must declare that if God is not sovereign then He is not God.

Dueteronomy 4:39. Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

Job 9:12. Behold, he taketh away, who can hinder him? who will say unto him, What doest thou?

Psalm 29:10. The LORD sitteth upon the flood; yea, the LORD sitteth King for ever.

Daniel 2:20. Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his:

Romans 9:19. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

e.g. "Total depravity" the word "deprave" (in any form) is not found in the Bible.

John 6:44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

e.g "irresistable grace" a phrase no where found in the Scripture

John 6:37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

e.g. "Original sin" ditto.

Romans 3:23. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 3:12. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Romans 1:19-25
19. Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21. Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23. And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25. Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

e.g "limited atonement" also a phrase nowere found in the Bible.

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

OR, many doctrines held by Christians are a composite of several verses which have to be compared and analyzed with conclusions drawn from that analysis and comparisons. The doctrine of the Trinity took almost 300 years for the Church to develope and involves scores of passages. To this day professing Christendom is still divided around the doctrine of the Trinity even by Trinitarians (in the details).

I understand this, however, there is a principle in the interpretation of Scripture that I believe dispensationalists ignore. I quote dispensationalist John Macarthur who does not follow his own teaching:

The Reformers used the expression scriptura scripturam interpretatur, or ‘Scripture interprets Scripture.’ By this they meant that obscure passages in Scripture must be understood in light of clearer ones. If the Bible is God's Word, it must be consistent with itself. No part of the Bible can contradict any other part. One divine Author, the Holy Spirit, inspired the whole Bible, so it has one marvelous, supernatural unity. The synthesis principle puts Scripture together with Scripture to arrive at a clear, consistent meaning. If we hold to an interpretation of one passage that does not square with something in another passage, one of the passages is being interpreted incorrectly, or possibly both of them. The Holy Spirit does not disagree with himself. And the passages with obvious meanings should interpret the more arcane [obscure] ones. One should never build a doctrine on a single obscure or unclear text.

Dispensationalists base much of their doctrine on Daniel 9:26, 27. No one can argue that this passage is not obscure.

 

[Me4Him]

Israel's "destruction".

Mt 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.



Israel's "Restoration".

Mr 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:

29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.

30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.


"THIRD WITNESSES".

Lu 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; (His/Her)

30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Israel didn't believe their "end" would come within the "Generation" of "His branch", Jesus,

and most today, even "Christians", don't believe the "end" will come within the generation of "her Branch", Israel restored.

but when Scriptures gives "three witnesses", don't make any plans beyond the prophecy.

Ps 90:10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; (70 years)

http://www.daysofgod.com/Page2.htmhttp://www.daysofgod.com/Page2.htm

 

[Ed Edwards]

It makes no sense because you put a phoney gap in between the 69th and 70th week. We could all come up with systems that "make sense of all scripture" if we are allowed to insert gaps, rearrange scriptures and change definitions.

There is absolutely no reason to assume there is a gap in between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel.
...

Rom 11:25 (KJV1611 Edition):
For I would not, brethren, that ye should bee ignorant of this mysterie (least yee should bee wise in your owne conceits) that blindnesse in part is happened to Israel, vntill the fulnes of the Gentiles be come in.

// ... you put a phoney gap in between the 69th and 70th week ... //

The Lord via Paul put in a REAL gap between the 68th and 70th week.

I sure would not call the Lord's 'gap' with the term 'phoney'. In fact, remind me not to stand next to .... never mind.

Peter even tells why the gap:

2Pe 3:15-18 And account that the long suffering of the Lord is saluation, euen as our beloued brother Paul also, according to the wisedome giuen vnto him, hath written vnto you.
16 As also in all his Epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to be vnderstood, which they that are vnlearned and vnstable wrest, as they doe also the other Scriptures, vnto their owne destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloued, seeing yee know these things before, beware lest yee also being led away with the errour of the wicked, fall from your owne stedfastnesse.
18 But growe in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Sauiour Iesus Christ: to him be glory both now and for euer. Amen.

So I, Ed, edify you (who read this post) & pray that (who read this post) will grow in grace and knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus. And I petition you (who read this post) to pray likewise for me. Thank you.

 

[Todd W. White]

The Greek issue is a valid one - the person writing was a top student of the #1 most respected Greek teacher in Southern Baptist life, Dr. A. T. Robertson, and his presentation of the Greek meanings, therefore, should be considered accurate.

The point of the the outline Jesus gives is valid, in my view.

As for the issue regarding the word, "generation", I offer this -

Remember that the era of the Gentiles, ie, the church, was a musterion - a mystery hidden in the mind of God until it was revealed unto His apostles (see Ephesians Chapter 3, among other places). The Jews knew the world would be saved through them, but they thought it would be by everyone becoming Jews - they had NO idea of an era - a dispensation - of the Gentiles, known to us as the Church Age. On that much, we probably agree (or not).

The era - the dispensation - of the church is a "wedge" jammed into the time line of history. It was inserted there by God when Israel rejected her Messiah and, as a result, God put Israel "on the shelf" for a time. Once the church is removed, that time line slaps back together, and the things that were "at hand" - ie, ready to be accomplished but weren't because Israel rejected the Messiah - will become reality. At that point, all of the things prophesied will begin to transpire, but not until then - the Church Age, of necessity, MUST end for this to become reality, and, ipso facto, the Church must be removed from the earth.

As our writer points out - the church must be removed BEFORE judgment comes on the earth against the Gentiles.

By the way - those who do not believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture - why no comments on all of the basic points in his dissertation? -

1. The first reason was the structural outline of the Apocalypse, how God made it and how it conforms to the structural outline of all of the Scriptures.

2. The second reason was the exposition of Paul in 2 Thessalonians that before the man of sin is revealed, first God’s people—the Holy Spirit in their hearts—God’s people must be taken away. The great Restrainer of this world must be taken away.

3. The third reason is that the types and the figures and the comparisons and the similes and the examples in the Scriptures all portray that same truth that God’s people—as Enoch and Lot—must be taken away first before God’s judgment falls.


and

4. What is the hope and the comfort to the Christian as the Bible speaks to its soul? What are we to look for and to wait for and to yearn for and to hope for? What are we to look forward to? Is it the coming of the END, or the coming of THE LORD?