Predestinate

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
Do you believe as many Calvinist, that the road to hell will be paved with the bones of infants?

BBob

Did you get that belief from a Calvinist on BB? Who or what is your source?

Yes, the term was mentioned on here. That is where I learned it. I never knew it before. I personally have heard Calvinist preachers preach that there would be babies in hell, no bigger than the span of your hand. I know most of you do not believe it, but just discussing it on here, most Calvinist would not make a deffinet denial of it.
There are many Calvinist who believe that there will be infants in hell, and there are many who believe they will not. I know St Augustine said the way to hell would be paved with infants skulls, and John Calvin followed with much of what Augustine believed and Calvin upheld him in many of his beliefs.

I certainly am not going back over all the C/A debates to find the quotes.

 

[old regular]

Infant Damnation

Infant Damnation is a terrible heresy, I have never heard it preached among the Old School Baptist,but my mother in law said it was preached, by an Elder in one of the Primitive Baptist Churches in Pike County,she was a member of the Union Association, and the Regulars and Primitives preached together, back where she lived ,they did not seperate their services and often preached in house meetings and memorials meetings at the graveyards in Pike County,she was a member at Frozen Creek, after that incident,they stopped preaching together, she said they came close to re-establishing correspondence but that killed it, I have had others deny this, but she said she knew better,she was there,she also said the Old Regulars changed from what they used to preach, to what she called a new doctrine,that split that association latter on,she had joined the church at a young age, and she could give the names of the brothers, her father was John Blackburn a deacon in the church.The brother that preached it had two sons that were in the Old Regulars one is alive today, so I witheld his name.They say that this teaching came from Italy, I know of no orthodox christian, that believes such.We Old Baptist, though called Calvinist never really liked the term although CHS embraced it, I think the true doctrine of election and predestination is much older than Calvin, and was advocated by the Apostles. Elder Mike Slone

 

[Rippon]

You're Not Going To Get Off The Hook

Bob , you have to demonstrate not merely charge that Augustine and Calvin said the kind of things you came up with .

I defy you to document one Calvinist here who has said "that the road to hell will be paved with the bones of infants ." It's rubbish , and you know it . But periodically you want to rehash this tripe .

I have told you before that John Wesley ( a decided non-Calvinist ) came up with the phrase : "There will be babies in hell no longer than the span of my hand ." He charged Calvinists with saying such things . I know of no one in Church history who ever said such a thing before Wesley manufactured it . Now you are in the same boat as Wesley . He never documented anything -- he just loudly proclaimed that Calvinists have said it . You have once again thrown garbage out there on the wall hoping it will stick . But , you have to demonstrate that it was true . Put up or shut up .

 

[Allan]

Bob , you have to demonstrate not merely charge that Augustine and Calvin said the kind of things you came up with .

I defy you to document one Calvinist here who has said "that the road to hell will be paved with the bones of infants ." It's rubbish , and you know it . But periodically you want to rehash this tripe .

I have told you before that John Wesley ( a decided non-Calvinist ) came up with the phrase : "There will be babies in hell no longer than the span of my hand ." He charged Calvinists with saying such things . I know of no one in Church history who ever said such a thing before Wesley manufactured it . Now you are in the same boat as Wesley . He never documented anything -- he just loudly proclaimed that Calvinists have said it . You have once again thrown garbage out there on the wall hoping it will stick . But , you have to demonstrate that it was true . Put up or shut up .

After doing a search I did find numerous sites on the web which attributed John Calvin with THIS quote: "There are babies a span long in hell" Though not one gave a sourse so as to validate it, so I take it with a grain of salt he actaully said it. However, since John Calvin DID believe some babies DO go to hell, it is quite probable he something toward that nature of the statement quoted him.

Another interesting piece. Not once could I find any mention of Wesley supposed saying or quoting anyone regarding babies being in hell. Not that he didn't say it but that I can not find anything stating he did. If we could get some validation of him saying this as a slanderous quote that would be most helpful.

However, it is not slanderous if the person he was speaking of DID believe some or any infant/young Child was cast into hell, it would simply be him stating the obvious.

 

[Martin]

I personally have heard Calvinist preachers preach that there would be babies in hell, no bigger than the span of your hand. I know most of you do not believe it, but just discussing it on here, most Calvinist would not make a deffinet denial of it.

==Well I would make a definite denial of it. There will be NO infants in hell. Period. Please identify some major Calvinists (not John Calvin) who have openly stated their would be infants in hell. Give me their name, the publication in which they stated it, along with page numbers. While I am not denying that some Calvinist may believe in infant damnation I do assert that it is not a view that can be attributed to all/most Calvinists.

I know St Augustine said the way to hell would be paved with infants skulls, and John Calvin followed with much of what Augustine believed and Calvin upheld him in many of his beliefs.

==Please show me where John Calvin said that there will infants in hell. I don't know if he did or did not say that (I have never read much of Calvin). Please give me the quote, publication, and page number.

I am still waiting on your reply to this post:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1067278&postcount=75

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Thank you, I was sure the way you would read it, that it would fit with Calvinism, thats ok I been through all this before. Some of my best friends are Calvinist, but I don't think they can help themselves............

Peace,

BBob

When our conscience is held captive to the Word of God, we cannot! :applause:

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Did you get that belief from a Calvinist on BB? Who or what is your source?

Referring to Bob's comment about infant damnation, it is not uncommon (as I am sure your aware) of the barbs certain persons like lay who despise what is commonly called "calvinism."

To Bob I say, leave off such gainsaying my brother. Show us your true Christian spirit and love to the brrethren, even us nasty little calvinists.

 

[Martin]

After doing a search I did find numerous sites on the web which attributed John Calvin with THIS quote: "There are babies a span long in hell" Though not one gave a sourse so as to validate it, so I take it with a grain of salt he actaully said it.

==Since no source can be found I don't think you should believe that he actually said that. I don't believe anything until a source is given (no matter who is in question).

However, since John Calvin DID believe some babies DO go to hell, it is quite probable he something toward that nature of the statement quoted him.

==Calvin "may" have believed that it was possible for the children of unsaved parents to end up in hell. However I doubt he believed it was possible for the children of saved parents to end up in hell. I say this because the Synod of Dort states that the children of the saved will be saved if they die in infancy and it denies that infants of the saved are cast into hell. However I don't think it says anything about infant children of unbelievers.

Another interesting piece. Not once could I find any mention of Wesley supposed saying or quoting anyone regarding babies being in hell. Not that he didn't say it but that I can not find anything stating he did. If we could get some validation of him saying this as a slanderous quote that would be most helpful.

==He may have said something along those lines as may have John Calvin. I don't know. You must understand that in those days people did not respond as "emotionally" on these issues as we do today. Most Christians who believe all infants who die go to heaven believe so because of emotionalism. They want to believe all infants who die enter heaven. Looking at it from a Scriptural point of view it is not as clear. Scripture teaches that infants who die enter heaven but it does not spend a lot of time on it.

 

[Allan]

==Since no source can be found I don't think you should believe that he actually said that. I don't believe anything until a source is given (no matter who is in question).

True, but as I stated Calvin did believe that some children/infants will die and go to hell. So the probability of him saying something to that effect is not unfathomable.

==Calvin "may" have believed that it was possible for the children of unsaved parents to end up in hell. However I doubt he believed it was possible for the children of saved parents to end up in hell. I say this because the Synod of Dort states that the children of the saved will be saved if they die in infancy and it denies that infants of the saved are cast into hell. However I don't think it says anything about infant children of unbelievers.

It is more than possible. If it is impossible for the children of saved parents to end up in hell (per Calvins view) then the converse is also true. For what hope is there for the child who dies in infancy if his parents are not saved? answer - none. If God would have desired to save him/her while knowing they will die in infancy, God would have placed that child in saved family. No it does not specifically state anything about infants being born to non-believers in the Synod of Dort because the obvious answer is implied as the opposite of what is currently stated.

==He may have said something along those lines as may have John Calvin. I don't know. You must understand that in those days people did not respond as "emotionally" on these issues as we do today. Most Christians who believe all infants who die go to heaven believe so because of emotionalism. They want to believe all infants who die enter heaven. Looking at it from a Scriptural point of view it is not as clear. Scripture teaches that infants who die enter heaven but it does not spend a lot of time on it.

No do I, that is why I asked for some validation. I couldn't and still haven't found anything on it, though it is possible that he stated it (and I have already stated that). Your used of 'emotionallism' isn't true on the whole. While I agree many do use it regarding this topic, many also base their positions upon scripture. Even though there isn't large amounts of it on the topic, personally I believe there is enough to place assurance toward the truth that all infants and youth are taken unto the Lord at their death. The Lord loves the children - do not forbid them to come unto him ...for such is the kingdom of God

 

[ReformedBaptist]

==Since no source can be found I don't think you should believe that he actually said that. I don't believe anything until a source is given (no matter who is in question).



==Calvin "may" have believed that it was possible for the children of unsaved parents to end up in hell. However I doubt he believed it was possible for the children of saved parents to end up in hell. I say this because the Synod of Dort states that the children of the saved will be saved if they die in infancy and it denies that infants of the saved are cast into hell. However I don't think it says anything about infant children of unbelievers.



==He may have said something along those lines as may have John Calvin. I don't know. You must understand that in those days people did not respond as "emotionally" on these issues as we do today. Most Christians who believe all infants who die go to heaven believe so because of emotionalism. They want to believe all infants who die enter heaven. Looking at it from a Scriptural point of view it is not as clear. Scripture teaches that infants who die enter heaven but it does not spend a lot of time on it.

I agree my brother that such a discussion tends to run high on emotions. The reality is that there probably have been some calvinists who believe some infants may have gone to hell. Certainly a great many never believed such a thing. Even if John Calvin did believe this, Calvin is not Scripture, but a fallible man. I believe the doctrines commonly called "calvinism" because of what is written in Scripture, not because of what Calvin wrote.

I would also commend to everyone's reading the sermon "Infant Salvation" by C.H. Spurgeon who addressed this subject very well. http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0411.htm

 

[Allan]

...........edited.

 

[Martin]

If it is impossible for the children of saved parents to end up in hell (per Calvins view) then the converse is also true. For what hope is there for the child who dies in infancy if his parents are not saved?

==That may very well have been Calvin's view and the view of the Synod. It certainly follows logically. Do I agree with their position? No. Do I believe they were vile heretics because of their position? No. Scripture gives me no reason to assume that they were heretics because of their position on this issue. After all Scripture is clear that all people, before salvation, are children of wrath. Any and all salvation is because of the grace of God through Jesus Christ. No person, infant or adult, deserves salvation. Therefore I must assume that Calvin (the Synod, etc) was doing the best he could to follow what the Scriptures teach. No person is perfect, we all err at times, and it is for this reason that I am very greatful for the grace of God.

Your used of 'emotionallism' isn't true on the whole. While I agree many do use it regarding this topic, many also base their positions upon scripture.

==The vast majority of people who believe that infants who die enter heaven hold that belief for purely emotional reasons. Most of them could not cite one Scripture, or one Scriptural principal, to support their position.

Even though there isn't large amounts of it on the topic, personally I believe there is enough to place assurance toward the truth that all infants and youth are taken unto the Lord at their death. The Lord loves the children - do not forbid them to come unto him ...for such is the kingdom of God

==I believe that all infants who die enter heaven. Why? Because of the grace of God through Christ Jesus. I would cite the very verse you quoted as well as a few others. I highly recommend John MacArthur's book on this subject titled "Safe In The Arms of God".

 

[Martin]

Even if John Calvin did believe this, Calvin is not Scripture, but a fallible man. I believe the doctrines commonly called "calvinism" because of what is written in Scripture, not because of what Calvin wrote.

==Amen!!

Thanks for the article. :thumbs:

Check out: http://www.spurgeongems.org/ I think every Spurgeon sermon is listed on their.

Spurgeon said:
"As for modern Calvinists, I know of no exception, but we all hope and

believe that all persons dying in infancy are elect. Dr. Gill, who has been looked upon in late times as being a very standard of Calvinism, not to say of ultra-Calvinism, himself never hints for a moment the supposition that any infant has perished. He affirms of it that it is a dark and mysterious subject but that it is his belief and he thinks he has Scripture to warrant it, that they who have fallen asleep in infancy have not perished, but have been numbered with the chosen of God and so have entered into eternal rest.​

We have never taught the contrary and when the charge is brought, I repudiate it and say, “You may have said so, we never did and you know we never did. If you dare to repeat the slander again, let the lie stand in scarlet on your very cheek if you are capable of a blush.” We have never dreamed of such a thing. With very few and rare exceptions, so rare that I never heard of them except from the lips of slanderers, we have never imagined that infants dying as infants have perished—but we have believed that they enter into the Paradise of God."

​

 

[Allan]

==That may very well have been Calvin's view and the view of the Synod. It certainly follows logically. Do I agree with their position? No. Do I believe they were vile heretics because of their position? No. Scripture gives me no reason to assume that they were heretics because of their position on this issue. After all Scripture is clear that all people, before salvation, are children of wrath. Any and all salvation is because of the grace of God through Jesus Christ. No person, infant or adult, deserves salvation. Therefore I must assume that Calvin (the Synod, etc) was doing the best he could to follow what the Scriptures teach. No person is perfect, we all err at times, and it is for this reason that I am very greatful for the grace of God.



==The vast majority of people who believe that infants who die enter heaven hold that belief for purely emotional reasons. Most of them could not cite one Scripture, or one Scriptural principal, to support their position.



==I believe that all infants who die enter heaven. Why? Because of the grace of God through Christ Jesus. I would cite the very verse you quoted as well as a few others. I highly recommend John MacArthur's book on this subject titled "Safe In The Arms of God".

I agree with all you posted herein, except where you began using 'heretic'. That was not even a part of what I was discussing.

Here is an interesting article on why and how Calvin and other held to the view of saved parents equals saved children. It is an interesting read and informative regarding his position on elect/saved infant/children going to heaven.
http://forerunner.com/puritan/PS.Calvin_baptism.html

I agree that Calvin is just another man who is falable like all the rest of us. But I was only bringing it about because someone stated he was one of the early Calvinists who believed it and it was questioned so I gave a researched answer.

Researched that is as good as the internet could find

 

[old regular]

Infant Damnation

.It might be of interest, that The London Confession of Faith was used for most of the Philadelphia Association's Confession of Faith, the Union Association, Which is still in correspondence with Brother Bob's Association the Sardis, stated that their Articles of Faith came From the Philadelphia, this document states that infants that die in infancy are elect.While I never really liked the term Calvinist but those,that know the history of the Original Regular Baptist, would no doubt, consider them strict Calvinist.The Sardis Association itself states it believes in the Doctrine of election by Grace, man's inability to recover himself from the fallen state he is in by nature, justification by the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ, they state they believe that sinners are called to repentance and believe in the Gospel and regeneration of the soul and sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, and none shall fall away and be lost. Their last statement states that :None of theAbove Articles shall be considered as to hold with particular election and reprobation so as to make God partial,directly or indirectly.... So what would you call this association's doctrinal stance?
No Old Regular Baptist Association, that I have heard of ,believes in double election in the sense that Calvin taught it.Those of understanding among them believe in one election, and that those condemned and reprobated are so because they are evil, not that God elected men to be evil so he can condemn them.When it comes to TULIP most would agree with it , some in a more modified sense,are different expression, although some would deny they believe in Limited Atonement yet they preach that God purposed to save Believers thus leaving unbelievers in their sins.The hard side of Old Regular Baptist would take it face value(TULIP).Brother Slone​

 

[Brother Bob]

I have told you before that John Wesley ( a decided non-Calvinist ) came up with the phrase : "There will be babies in hell no longer than the span of my hand ." He charged Calvinists with saying such things . I know of no one in Church history who ever said such a thing before Wesley manufactured it . Now you are in the same boat as Wesley . He never documented anything -- he just loudly proclaimed that Calvinists have said it . You have once again thrown garbage out there on the wall hoping it will stick . But , you have to demonstrate that it was true . Put up or shut up .

In the first place, lets get this off the table Rippon; You do not tell me to shut up, and if you do, it goes in one ear and out the other.
I have told you, I personally heard a Calvinist preach that there would babies in hell no bigger than the span of your hand and it was in a church within 3 miles of me. The person who preached it was their moderator and was highly thought of in their association. He is dead now, but still has family living around here, so I will not be mentioning his name. On BB there have been several who would not deny that babies go to hell.
I do not blame you for not likeing the doctrine, but live with it for it is true.

BBob

4th century CE
St. Gregory of Nazianzus (circa 329 - circa 390) commented in Orat., XL, 23 that infants dying without baptism "will neither be admitted by the just judge to the glory of Heaven nor condemned to suffer punishment, since, though unsealed [by baptism], they are not wicked." This was the common view of the early Church Fathers.
Pope St. Siricius insisted on the baptism of infants as well as adults lest "each one of them on leaving the world, loses both [eternal] life and the kingdom
5th century CE: St. Augustine of Hippo (354 - 430) convinced the Council of Carthage (418 CE) to reject the concept of limbo "of any place...in which children who pass out of this life unbaptized live in happiness." According to the Catholic Encyclopedia: "St. Augustine and the African Fathers believed that unbaptized infants share in the common positive misery of the damned, and the very most that St. Augustine concedes is that their punishment is the mildest of all." i.e. they go to Hell for eternal punishment, but are not as badly treated as other inmates. According to Revelation 14:10, the infants would be tortured in the presence of Jesus. However, this verse is ambigous about whether Jesus is directing or merely observing the torture.

John Calvin taught Augustines' viewpoint so clearly and consistently that after Calvin's time Augustinianism was renamed "Calvinism". John Knox, the Scottish reformer held to Calvin's view as well. So did a host of others including Theodore Beza, William Farrel, Ulrich Zwingli and William Tyndale.

If there's no limbo and we're not going to revert to St. Augustine's teaching that unbaptized infants go to hell, we're left with only one option, namely, that everyone is born in the state of grace," said the Rev. Richard McBrien, professor of theology at the University of Notre Dame.

VATICAN CITY: Pope Benedict XVI has reversed centuries of traditional Roman Catholic teaching on so-called limbo, approving a Vatican report released Friday that says there were "serious" grounds to hope that children who die without being baptized can go to heaven.

 

[Brother Bob]

Old regular;
I was at Frozen Creek yesterday for their memorial. I was called and we had a very good old time meeting. Brother James Tackett was also there. Brother Herman West is now their moderator, but I guess you know that.

BBob,

 

[old regular]

Frozen Creek

I justed wanted to mention that incident in Pike County,so that others would understand, that there was some ministers who made these statements, though I don't believe it was the majority view then nor is it now. Bro.Mike

 

[Brother Bob]

Old regular;
In my area, when I was very young it was a doctrine seen by many but not in the Old Regulars. I can remember as a small boy, hearing the belief and it scaring the daylights out of me. They do not preach it anymore, but many still believe it, again not the Old Regulars.

Even the Catholics themselves of today, know it was the early doctrine of St. Augustine. They recently questioned the New Pope about it and he now says he thought there might be enough love for children that they would not be condemned to hell, if unbaptized.

BBob,

 

[Martin]

I agree with all you posted herein, except where you began using 'heretic'. That was not even a part of what I was discussing.

==I know. I was just responding to what others have said.