• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Predestination is a Beautiful Doctrine.

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
God withholding His mercy from some, and choosing to show it to others?

1) God has judicially blinded the nation of Israel, for the most part, specifically so that they cannot see, hear and believe on His Son in Matthew 13:10-17, Mark 4:10-12, John 12:37-40, Romans 11:7-11. This leaves them in their sins.

2) The Gospel is hid to them that believe not ( 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 ) by Satan because the Lord allows it. Again, this leaves all who are blinded by Satan in their sins, and does not show them His mercy.

3) In 2 Thessalonians 2, Paul tells the church at Thessalonica that when Anti-Christ comes, the Lord will send those who are not His people a strong delusion... so that they will believe the lie that Anti-Christ is God, and will voluntarily take the mark. This leaves them in their sins.

There are many other places in the Scriptures that objectively show the Lord choosing one and not another;
Choosing to blind some and not others, etc.
God has mercy upon whom He will have mercy ( Romans 9 ), Charlie.


If anyone has believed on His Son, it's because He chose to have mercy on them and to allow His Son to reveal the truth of who He really is, to their hearts and minds ( Matthew 11:25-27 ).

Have you not read of these things?

Of course I've read them, many times!

All three examples you gave and several more including Pharaoh in Exodus are examples of rebellion and hardened hearts against God.

God gives you what you want, as far as accepting Him or not. If you rebel and continue that rebellion and hardness against God He will give you a firm hardness against Him.

In Israel's case, God made a promise to Abraham that He will keep. God has blinded Israel and set them aside until the Church Age has run it's course, as Paul has clearly said. God is dealing separately with Israel's salvation that will come after the Church Age has come to its full.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
No SH, I respond with teachers who know and believed scripture. It is all about scripture! You cannot refute what is taught because it is built on the solid rock of scripture
You respond with calvinist teachers that are looking through the same lens you are. What they say is their opinion but that does not make it right when held to the truth of scripture.
Those who object, like you, cannot answer because Calvinist teachers offer solid scripture, which are not going to be refuted anytime soon.
Fro a slanted view which has it's base in pagan philosophy.
Show where he was wrong, that should be simple enough...No one is stopping you from trying..Saying he was wrong, is one thing, showing in scripture is another thing...you cannot do it!

When he uses calvinism as the basis of his view then he starts from a view based on pagan philosophy thus he starts from error. He, as you, can quote the bible but when your views are colored by false teachings you end up with false teachings.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
It's the same plan that He had when the Holy Ghost forbade Paul and Silas to go into Asia ( Acts 16:6-7 ), the same plan when He decided to reveal Himself to Jacob and not to Esau, Moses and not Zipporah, Joseph and Mary and not others of their family, Paul on the road to Damascus and not the rest of his friends in the Pharisees ( except for Nicodemus and some others ), Peter, James, John, Andrew and some of the other fishermen who frequented the Sea of Galilee and not others, and the same plan when Noah and his family were the only ones that the Lord saved in the ark.

I think you'll find, if you look carefully enough throughout God's word, that all those that the Lord has specifically revealed Himself to over the years, have been in a rather small minority... compared to the billions that have ever been born, lived and died.

Look at Cain and Abel to see how God reveals Himself to man.

Both of them knew what the animal sacrifice meant, it represented the coming Messiah of God.

Abel brought that animal sacrifice before God and was accepted, but what about Cain?

Cain rebelled and brought a sacrifice of vegetables, and was rejected by God.

Cain rebelled against God because he wanted it his way, not God's way. He could have been at peace with God by accepting God's way of salvation through the animal sacrifice, but he refused and look at what happened to him.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
True point, but when as the free willers teach, believing is by the unregenerate flesh of man, which causes God to save them, then believing becomes a meritorious work they did. It believing is not meritorious only when its acknowledged to be caused by Gods Grace. And Specifically the Grace of regeneration.

There you go teaching that false human philosophy again BF. Why is it that you do not trust the word of God?

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

Rom 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
Rom 4:6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

You have to ignore scripture to hold to your false understanding BF.
 

Zaatar71

Active Member
You respond with calvinist teachers that are looking through the same lens you are. What they say is their opinion but that does not make it right when held to the truth of scripture.

Fro a slanted view which has it's base in pagan philosophy.


When he uses calvinism as the basis of his view then he starts from a view based on pagan philosophy thus he starts from error. He, as you, can quote the bible but when your views are colored by false teachings you end up with false teachings.
No substance offered here SH...Try again!
 

JD731

Well-Known Member
"Predestination is a Beautiful Doctrine."

"Predestination is a Beautiful Doctrine. Its beauty lies in the fact that a Holy God has Revealed it to us in His Word. And, as Calvin and Boettner, among others, point out, it has significant practical applications. Predestination is not merely a topic for discussion and debate among curious seminary students. It tells us much about the character of God:

  • "God is Meticulously Writing the story of history according to His Own Script. Though we speak of “accidents,” really, there are no accidents. Nothing will take place today that hasn’t been carefully Planned before in Eternity Past by an All-Powerful and Good Creator.

  • "God Loves sinners. We should never get over the stunning reality of this statement. Though we have rebelled against Him, yet God Sent His Only Son to die in the Place of sinful men and women to Rescue them from sin and death (Rom. 5:8). Christ, who was not guilty, Laid Down His Life for the guilty (1 Pet. 3:18). He Bore the Wrath we deserve.

  • "God uses Means to Achieve His Ends. Our Lord selects weak clay pots and Sends them to the Ends of the Earth to preach the good news of His Rescue Mission in Christ (Rom. 10:14-15). He Gives fallen men the unconscionable privilege of proclaiming his sin-slaying, death-defeating Gospel.

  • "God’s Glory is Ultimate, not man’s. The outset of the Shorter Catechism famously marks out the chief end of man—to Glorify God and enjoy Him Forever. God Made us for His Glory (Isa. 42:8). Every pursuit in life is to be done with an eye to the spread of His Fame.
"Predestination also says something important about us: apart from a Unilateral Work of Grace, we cannot please God. We are dead in our sins, and dead men can do nothing (Eph. 2:1). Therefore, we ignore Predestination to our own Spiritual malnourishment."
I cannot understand how this reasoning when carefully considered can possibly make any sense to a sane mind. Having said nothing that is true about God and claiming that God planned out beforehand every event and action meticulously, the writer then warns in his last line that we can ignore predestination to our own detriment. The fact that a couple men gave this post a high five proves that no one is actually reading it or; fill in the blank.

What else in the meticulous pre-planning of God can we ignore and have to deal with the consequences?

  • Nothing will take place today that hasn’t been carefully Planned before in Eternity Past by an All-Powerful and Good Creator.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
No substance offered here SH...Try again!

The substance is the word of God not what some man thinks a philosophy from the forth century says.

I would lay odds that you have yet to do any research into the foundations of your religion. And you cannot say it is the bible as your philosophical view is in disagreement with the word of God.
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Look at Cain and Abel to see how God reveals Himself to man.
Cain was a child of the devil, Abel was an elect child of God, so God didn't give cain Faith in the coming seed of the woman, like He did to Abel

1 Jn 3:12

Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
 

Zaatar71

Active Member
The substance is the word of God not what some man thinks a philosophy from the forth century says.

I would lay odds that you have yet to do any research into the foundations of your religion. And you cannot say it is the bible as your philosophical view is in disagreement with the word of God.
what I believe comes directly from scripture. Perhaps some day you will see it, instead of making up excuses/
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
what I believe comes directly from scripture. Perhaps some day you will see it, instead of making up excuses/

If you have the time do some research on this info from the Library of Theology.

Here's an excerpt.

There are major similarities and yet subtle differences between Augustinianism and Gnosticism. While the Gnostics said that man’s nature was sinful and corrupt and that man didn’t have a free will because man was created by an inferior god, Augustine agreed with the Gnostics that man’s nature was sinful and corrupt and that man did not have a free will, but he said that God made it that way on account of Adam’s sin. While the Gnostics said that flesh was sinful and therefore Christ did not have a flesh, Augustine said that concupiscence in the flesh was sinful and that this sin was hereditary or transmitted from parent to child through the physical passions of intercourse, but that Jesus avoided this hereditary sin by being conceived without physical passion and being born of a virgin. Therefore, Augustine agreed with the Gnostics in principle, but he differed from them in explanation. In this way, Augustinian theology was a modified Manichaeism or a semi-Gnosticism.

Consider the following facts:

  • All of the Early Christians, before Augustine, believed in man’s free will and denied man’s natural inability.
  • The Gnostics in the days of the Early Church believed in man’s natural inability and denied man’s free will.
  • Augustine was a Gnostic for many years, in the Manichaeism sect, and converted to the Church out of Gnosticism.
  • After joining the Church and being appointed a Bishop, Augustine began to deny the free will of man and to affirm the natural inability of man
  • The Church, under Augustine’s influence, began to believe in the natural inability of man, which it never before held to, but which it formerly would refute.

 

Zaatar71

Active Member
If you have the time do some research on this info from the Library of Theology.

Here's an excerpt.

There are major similarities and yet subtle differences between Augustinianism and Gnosticism. While the Gnostics said that man’s nature was sinful and corrupt and that man didn’t have a free will because man was created by an inferior god, Augustine agreed with the Gnostics that man’s nature was sinful and corrupt and that man did not have a free will, but he said that God made it that way on account of Adam’s sin. While the Gnostics said that flesh was sinful and therefore Christ did not have a flesh, Augustine said that concupiscence in the flesh was sinful and that this sin was hereditary or transmitted from parent to child through the physical passions of intercourse, but that Jesus avoided this hereditary sin by being conceived without physical passion and being born of a virgin. Therefore, Augustine agreed with the Gnostics in principle, but he differed from them in explanation. In this way, Augustinian theology was a modified Manichaeism or a semi-Gnosticism.

Consider the following facts:

  • All of the Early Christians, before Augustine, believed in man’s free will and denied man’s natural inability.
  • The Gnostics in the days of the Early Church believed in man’s natural inability and denied man’s free will.
  • Augustine was a Gnostic for many years, in the Manichaeism sect, and converted to the Church out of Gnosticism.
  • After joining the Church and being appointed a Bishop, Augustine began to deny the free will of man and to affirm the natural inability of man
  • The Church, under Augustine’s influence, began to believe in the natural inability of man, which it never before held to, but which it formerly would refute.


Jesse Morrell, a Pelagian open air campus preacher, wrote a hit piece against Calvinism just before his recent debate with Matt Slick (see the debate here). His arguments against the truth of Calvinism are weak, but they aren’t even the worst parts of his article. In his attempt to defame Calvinist theology, he went after essential doctrines that aren’t exclusively Calvinistic. In his attempt to list 22 (later changed to 24) problems with Calvinism, he instead attacked the Christian faith as a whole, and so revealed multiple issues with his own theology to add on to the list.

Despite claiming to be a street preacher, he never actually does any preaching of the Gospel. Most of his videos consist of him intentionally provoking the crowd and making tacky, tasteless jokes. Just watch the first five minutes of this video. He makes jokes about suicide bombings, slings insults around, and then calls it “love”. He does not preach the Gospel a single time. To make things worse, he attributes all of this sinful behavior to God. There are good, faithful street preachers who preach law and Gospel and they are much better examples of evangelism than this. I have friends, acquaintances, and people who have influenced me who are faithful street preachers and would be insulted by calling this guy a street preacher or open-air evangelist. This in no way mirrors an attitude of kindness, gentleness, and self-control (See: Galatians 5:22-23). Saying “Muhammed is the bomb” so as to enrage Muslims is not the Gospel, calling homosexuals “beasts” is not preaching, and Jesse Morrell is not a true preacher or evangelist.
The most well known of Jesse Morrell’s heresies is Pelagianism. In the article mentioned earlier, Morrell says, “Calvinism says that all men inherit a sinful nature from Adam when the Bible never even says that Adam’s nature was sinful but instead asserts that God forms our nature in the womb.” What Morrell described is not Calvinism, it is Original Sin, and he denies it at many points in the article. Morrell here is denying that man is inherently sinful and that man has a sin nature. This is a denial of essential Christian doctrine. He hasn’t exactly kept his Pelagianism secret, as he has even gone as far as to release a full-scale documentary called “Beyond Augustine” that denies Original Sin. The Bible is very clear about the truth of this doctrine. In Psalm 51:5 (ESV) we read, “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.” God affirms in Genesis 8:21 (ESV), “… for the intention of man’s heart is evil from his youth.” 1 Corinthians 15:22 (ESV) declares, “For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.” (Romans 5:18 spells this out clearly as well).
Another doctrine he attacks and mislabels as Calvinism is Imputed Righteousness. Morrell says, “Calvinism says that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to believers when the Bible says that our faith is imputed as righteousness.” What he is denying here is that Jesus’s righteousness was given to us and our sins were placed upon Him at the cross. However, 2 Corinthians 5:21 (ESV) says, “For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.“
Morrell also seems to stumble at the nature of God. The Bible teaches God is omniscient (See: Psalm 147:5, 1 John 3:20, Isaiah 40:28, Psalm 139:1-6, Hebrews 4:13). However, in his article Morrell articulates something akin to the Open Theism heresy. This heresy teaches that God does not know the future and that the future has not yet been decided. Despite this heresy being disproven by every single prophecy made by God in the Bible, both those that have been proven right and those that are yet to come, Jesse Morrell argued in the article, “Calvinism says that all events are the eternal will of God when the Bible represents God as grieved, disappointed, and *surprised* over many events that have occurred.”
The Bible teaches that God is immutable. According to Numbers 23:19 (ESV), “God is not man,, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind.” (See also in: Malachi 3:6, Hebrews 13:8, James 1:17, and Isaiah 40:8) However, Morrell’s article stated, “the Bible says that God has canceled and reversed some of His own prophecies.“
Deuteronomy 18:22 (ESV) says, “When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.” However, in his article, Jesse Morrell accuses God of giving prophecies that have not come to pass, saying, “Calvinism says that God has irresistibly decreed all events from eternity past, when the Bible says that God has canceled and reversed some of His own prophecies and teaches that the future is not yet entirely fixed and settled but changeable.” Not only does this teach Open Theism and deny the immutability of God, but if it were true then God would be guilty of being a false prophet according to Deuteronomy 18.
Finally, Jesse Morrell constantly attacks Penal Substitutionary Atonement, the doctrine that teaches that Jesus died as a substitute for our sins. He states, “Calvinism says that Jesus Christ came and took our punishment when the Bible says that our punishment is eternal hell.” While performing a logical fallacy called “non-sequitur” (Jesus dying to take away our punishment and the wages of sin being eternal Hell aren’t exclusive), he is also implying that Jesus did not come and take out punishment. He continues, “Calvinism says that Jesus Christ came and paid our debt when the Bible says that God forgives us our debt.” I would argue that both of those are true. God forgives us our debt because Jesus paid our debt on the cross. However, Morrell seems to think that they are mutually exclusive statements and that Jesus did not pay our debt on the cross. He continues to attack Substitutionary Atonement for the next two points. This very concerning because the Bible most clearly teaches this doctrine and it is essential to the Gospel. 1 Peter 3:18 (ESV) says, “For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit…” 2 Corinthians 5:21 shows this as well, saying, “For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” 1 Peter 2:24 (ESV) very clearly states, “He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.” This crucial truth appears also in Isaiah 53:5 (ESV) saying, “he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.“
Jesse Morrell outright denies six truths that are essential to the Christian faith in just one article. Such a man who denies Gospel truths should not be sent out and supported to preach the Gospel (Or claim to do so while he insults the crowd). Jesse Morrell distorts the nature of God, outright denies the Gospel, elevates man, and claims to preach the Gospel without even believing the Gospel.

[Contributed by Brandon Hines]
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member

Jesse Morrell, a Pelagian open air campus preacher, wrote a hit piece against Calvinism just before his recent debate with Matt Slick (see the debate here). His arguments against the truth of Calvinism are weak, but they aren’t even the worst parts of his article. In his attempt to defame Calvinist theology, he went after essential doctrines that aren’t exclusively Calvinistic. In his attempt to list 22 (later changed to 24) problems with Calvinism, he instead attacked the Christian faith as a whole, and so revealed multiple issues with his own theology to add on to the list.

Despite claiming to be a street preacher, he never actually does any preaching of the Gospel. Most of his videos consist of him intentionally provoking the crowd and making tacky, tasteless jokes. Just watch the first five minutes of this video. He makes jokes about suicide bombings, slings insults around, and then calls it “love”. He does not preach the Gospel a single time. To make things worse, he attributes all of this sinful behavior to God. There are good, faithful street preachers who preach law and Gospel and they are much better examples of evangelism than this. I have friends, acquaintances, and people who have influenced me who are faithful street preachers and would be insulted by calling this guy a street preacher or open-air evangelist. This in no way mirrors an attitude of kindness, gentleness, and self-control (See: Galatians 5:22-23). Saying “Muhammed is the bomb” so as to enrage Muslims is not the Gospel, calling homosexuals “beasts” is not preaching, and Jesse Morrell is not a true preacher or evangelist.
The most well known of Jesse Morrell’s heresies is Pelagianism. In the article mentioned earlier, Morrell says, “Calvinism says that all men inherit a sinful nature from Adam when the Bible never even says that Adam’s nature was sinful but instead asserts that God forms our nature in the womb.” What Morrell described is not Calvinism, it is Original Sin, and he denies it at many points in the article. Morrell here is denying that man is inherently sinful and that man has a sin nature. This is a denial of essential Christian doctrine. He hasn’t exactly kept his Pelagianism secret, as he has even gone as far as to release a full-scale documentary called “Beyond Augustine” that denies Original Sin. The Bible is very clear about the truth of this doctrine. In Psalm 51:5 (ESV) we read, “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.” God affirms in Genesis 8:21 (ESV), “… for the intention of man’s heart is evil from his youth.” 1 Corinthians 15:22 (ESV) declares, “For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.” (Romans 5:18 spells this out clearly as well).
Another doctrine he attacks and mislabels as Calvinism is Imputed Righteousness. Morrell says, “Calvinism says that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to believers when the Bible says that our faith is imputed as righteousness.” What he is denying here is that Jesus’s righteousness was given to us and our sins were placed upon Him at the cross. However, 2 Corinthians 5:21 (ESV) says, “For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.“
Morrell also seems to stumble at the nature of God. The Bible teaches God is omniscient (See: Psalm 147:5, 1 John 3:20, Isaiah 40:28, Psalm 139:1-6, Hebrews 4:13). However, in his article Morrell articulates something akin to the Open Theism heresy. This heresy teaches that God does not know the future and that the future has not yet been decided. Despite this heresy being disproven by every single prophecy made by God in the Bible, both those that have been proven right and those that are yet to come, Jesse Morrell argued in the article, “Calvinism says that all events are the eternal will of God when the Bible represents God as grieved, disappointed, and *surprised* over many events that have occurred.”
The Bible teaches that God is immutable. According to Numbers 23:19 (ESV), “God is not man,, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind.” (See also in: Malachi 3:6, Hebrews 13:8, James 1:17, and Isaiah 40:8) However, Morrell’s article stated, “the Bible says that God has canceled and reversed some of His own prophecies.“
Deuteronomy 18:22 (ESV) says, “When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.” However, in his article, Jesse Morrell accuses God of giving prophecies that have not come to pass, saying, “Calvinism says that God has irresistibly decreed all events from eternity past, when the Bible says that God has canceled and reversed some of His own prophecies and teaches that the future is not yet entirely fixed and settled but changeable.” Not only does this teach Open Theism and deny the immutability of God, but if it were true then God would be guilty of being a false prophet according to Deuteronomy 18.
Finally, Jesse Morrell constantly attacks Penal Substitutionary Atonement, the doctrine that teaches that Jesus died as a substitute for our sins. He states, “Calvinism says that Jesus Christ came and took our punishment when the Bible says that our punishment is eternal hell.” While performing a logical fallacy called “non-sequitur” (Jesus dying to take away our punishment and the wages of sin being eternal Hell aren’t exclusive), he is also implying that Jesus did not come and take out punishment. He continues, “Calvinism says that Jesus Christ came and paid our debt when the Bible says that God forgives us our debt.” I would argue that both of those are true. God forgives us our debt because Jesus paid our debt on the cross. However, Morrell seems to think that they are mutually exclusive statements and that Jesus did not pay our debt on the cross. He continues to attack Substitutionary Atonement for the next two points. This very concerning because the Bible most clearly teaches this doctrine and it is essential to the Gospel. 1 Peter 3:18 (ESV) says, “For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit…” 2 Corinthians 5:21 shows this as well, saying, “For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” 1 Peter 2:24 (ESV) very clearly states, “He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.” This crucial truth appears also in Isaiah 53:5 (ESV) saying, “he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.“
Jesse Morrell outright denies six truths that are essential to the Christian faith in just one article. Such a man who denies Gospel truths should not be sent out and supported to preach the Gospel (Or claim to do so while he insults the crowd). Jesse Morrell distorts the nature of God, outright denies the Gospel, elevates man, and claims to preach the Gospel without even believing the Gospel.

[Contributed by Brandon Hines]

Of course there will be a rebuttal from the opposing belief, that is to be expected.

I'm just asking you to research and see the roots of Calvinism, whether you agree or not.

We didn't come up with this out of thin air.
 

Zaatar71

Active Member
Of course there will be a rebuttal from the opposing belief, that is to be expected.

I'm just asking you to research and see the roots of Calvinism, whether you agree or not.

We didn't come up with this out of thin air.
Charlie, Most all of the people I have known have not read Augustine, or Calvin. Those I know have come to these truths from scripture first, afterward they found Spurgeon or the Puritans to learn more about the faith once delivered to the saints. All confessional churches put scripture first in their confessions/ Any form of gnostism is soundly rejected. Jesse Morrel preaches a gospel of works and is another anti cal trying to be somebody.
 
Top