Predestination: Meaning and Application

[Brother Bob]

14But how are people to call upon Him Whom they have not believed [in Whom they have no faith, on Whom they have no reliance]? And how are they to believe in Him [adhere to, trust in, and rely upon Him] of Whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher? We have to ask Paul what He meant in verse 18 or Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;



15And how can men [be expected to] preach unless they are sent? As it is written, How beautiful are the feet of those who bring glad tidings! [How welcome is the coming of those who preach the good news of His good things!](F) I agree

16But they have not all heeded the Gospel; for Isaiah says, Lord, who has believed (had faith in) what he has heard from us?(G)
(But they heard it and that is the question, they don't all believe today.)
17So faith comes by hearing [what is told], and what is heard comes by the preaching [of the message that came from the lips] of Christ (the Messiah Himself). The Grace of God that bringeth Salvation hath appeared unto all men. (The Greatest Preacher of ALL)

18But I ask, Have they not heard? Indeed they have; [for the Scripture says] Their voice [that of nature bearing God's message] has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the far bounds of the world.(H) I agree

19Again I ask, Did Israel not understand? [Did the Jews have no warning that the Gospel was to go forth to the Gentiles, to all the earth?] First, there is Moses who says, I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry.(I) Agree, the Gospel was preached unto them same as us.

20Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, I have been found by those who did not seek Me; I have shown (revealed) Myself to those who did not [consciously] ask for Me.(J) True other nations I assume.

21But of Israel he says, All day long I have stretched out My hands to a people unyielding and disobedient and self-willed [to a faultfinding, contrary, and contradicting people]. Yea, Israel was provoked to jealousy so as to make a way for the Gentile nation.

Seems to me we pretty well agree James, I don't see too much different. Seems you and I agree more than BP/T and I, unless I misread you.

 

[Brother Bob]

9For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory

I will answer this with very few words.

God is Omnipresence and is everywhere and even at the end as we speak. He also was there when Jacob and Esau were born

and saw the birth take place before it did. He knew before hand that Esau would sell his birth right. He knew Who would have

faith in God and who would not before the world began because he sees all and saw Jacob's faith as He see, saw, seen our

faith. He see, saw, seen us choose to serve God also. amen,

 

[Jarthur001]

I will answer this with very few words.

God is Omnipresence and is everywhere and even at the end as we speak. He also was there when Jacob and Esau were born

and saw the birth take place before it did. He knew before hand that Esau would sell his birth right. He knew Who would have

faith in God and who would not before the world began because he sees all and saw Jacob's faith as He see, saw, seen our

faith. He see, saw, seen us choose to serve God also. amen,

Are you saying God did not elect one son over the other...he just knew it would happen?

Are you saying..God did not shape the clay the way He wanted?

Are you saying God did not have mercy on some...and no mercy on others?

 

[Jarthur001]

Seems to me we pretty well agree James, I don't see too much different. Seems you and I agree more than BP/T and I, unless I misread you.

Bob..I do not say that the word has not gone out in some way.

This is what I always ask....

Has some like the made up guy named Joe.....heard less times then you Bob?

I have met Joes...have you?

 

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
Why would you say that. I don't understand. He came to His own "elect" but they received Him not. ,

Who are the elect you speak of Bob?

At that time before His death it was Israel for He said go ye not the way of the Gentiles and the City of the Samartians enter you not but rather go ye to the lost sheep of Israel. We were alien and without God until He broke down the middle wall of partition.

 

[Jarthur001]

At that time before His death it was Israel for He said go ye not the way of the Gentiles and the City of the Samartians enter you not but rather go ye to the lost sheep of Israel. We were alien and without God until He broke down the middle wall of partition.

If they are elect..what about other nations? Are they the non elect..when it comes to nations?

 

[saturneptune]

Ok, James congratulations, you pinned me down on Romans 10:18. I value my friendship with Brother Bob very much and admire his many years of service to the Lord. There is no need for this back and forth with him.

Now, lets see how far your Calvinism goes the other way. There are some on here, I think pinyo something is one of them, that think preachers, missions, tracts, etc are a waste of time because you are born elected. This is hyper to me and unBiblical.

Now, please answer my question. Do all those who hear accept?

 

[Brother Bob]

Bob..I do not say that the word has not gone out in some way.

This is what I always ask....

Has some like the made up guy named Joe.....heard less times then you Bob?

I have meet Joes...have you?

Yes James;
I agree with you that we have more opportunity than say Kenya but I am sure glad to hear you say you believe the word has went out.

 

[Brother Bob]

If they are elect..what about other nations? Are they the non elect..when it comes to nations?

If I understand the Scripture right James, as we have to go through Christ those that were not Israel in those days had to accept Israel's God if they wanted to be saved.

 

[Jarthur001]

Ok, James congratulations, you pinned me down on Romans 10:18. I value my friendship with Brother Bob very much and admire his many years of service to the Lord. There is no need for this back and forth with him.

Now, lets see how far your Calvinism goes the other way. There are some on here, I think pinyo something is one of them, that think preachers, missions, tracts, etc are a waste of time because you are born elected. This is hyper to me and unBiblical.

Now, please answer my question. Do all those who hear accept?

are you really a Calvinist? I have yet hear you post your views. All you say is.."i'm a Calvinist"..but do not be mean to Bob.

Be not ashame of your faith. Bob is not ashame. I do not agree with Bob...but he takes a stand and will fight to the death. I respect Bob for that.

But will you? One thing I do not like is wishy washy people with no backbone. Do you have it..or do you place Bob's feels above Gods feelings? Is it your faith..or are you just playing games. Stand up for your GOD! He died for YOU!! Do not backdown. Be bold.

 

[Brother Bob]

Are you saying God did not elect one son over the other...he just knew it would happen? Oh, God elect one son over the other for He saw Jacob have the faith before Jacob was born.

Are you saying..God did not shape the clay the way He wanted? God is the potter and shapes all clay and Jacob had a body as you and I which had to die. God didn't shape Him unto honor as of yet unless Jacob is already in Heaven.

Are you saying God did not have mercy on some...and no mercy on others? No, God had mercy on those He saw with faith in Him before they were born

Ok, James there you have it.

 

[Jarthur001]

If I understand the Scripture right James, as we have to go through Christ those that were not Israel in those days had to accept Israel's God if they wanted to be saved.

I agree!

But did God choose a nation..one nation over the other nations..and thereby we can call that nation the elect of God...and the other nations that was not choosen...the non elect?

 

[Brother Bob]

are you really a Calvinist? I have yet hear you post your views. All you say is.."i'm a Calvinist"..but do not be mean to Bob.

Be not ashame of your faith. Bob is not ashame. I do not agree with Bob...but he takes a stand and will fight to the death. I respect Bob for that.

But will you? One thing I do not like is wishy washy people with no backbone. Do you have it..or do you place Bob's feels above Gods feelings? Is it your faith..or are you just playing games. Stand up for your GOD! He died for YOU!! Do not backdown. Be bold.

James he just agreed with BP/T on verse 18. I didn't know you and I agreed on verse 18 or at least pretty close.

I am not mad at Sat for agreeing against me at all. This is not the first time and won't be the last.

 

[saturneptune]

You fail to answer the question. You are one to talk about backbone. Being rude, and irrational does not equal boldness for the Lord. If you do not want to explain your position on your faith, go to another thread.

Once again, I will ask, if a person has heard, will he always believe?

Long posts that never pin down any points accomplish nothing.

 

[Brother Bob]

But did God choose a nation..one nation over the other nations..and thereby we can call that nation the elect of God...and the other nations that was not choosen...the non elect?

Yes, but made a way for all through Israel and I say made a way for all through Christ today.

 

[saturneptune]

Oh and James, I never realized that God was in the business of electing nations. I thought all this time it was individuals. Tell me, is Canada saved or lost? How about Mongolia?

 

[Jarthur001]

Ok, James there you have it.

this is what you say...but what does the Bible say.
Bob words in bold...

Are you saying God did not elect one son over the other...he just knew it would happen? Oh, God elect one son over the other for He saw Jacob have the faith before Jacob was born.

Are you saying..God did not shape the clay the way He wanted? God is the potter and shapes all clay and Jacob had a body as you and I which had to die. God didn't shape Him unto honor as of yet unless Jacob is already in Heaven.

Are you saying God did not have mercy on some...and no mercy on others? No, God had mercy on those He saw with faith in Him before they were born

Ideas any one???

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

I have a good idea. Lets just believe Gods Word. Sounds go to me.

 

[saturneptune]

this is what you say...but what does the Bible say.
Bob words in bold...



Ideas any one???



I have a good idea. Lets just believe Gods Word. Sounds go to me.

English classes are avaliable at your local community college. If you enroll, you will find the word good is spelled "good."

 

[Dale-c]

Saturn....nah, it isn't worth it.

 

[Jarthur001]

Oh and James, I never realized that God was in the business of electing nations. I thought all this time it was individuals. Tell me, is Canada saved or lost? How about Mongolia?

This is to silly.

Do you even believe in election? Do You believe God Choose one over another? If not..you will never understand.

Come tell us now...are you a Calvinist like you have said...and if so..why?

Have some backbone. Did not God die for you? Can you not take a stand for God?

If anyone hates you..who cares? You hate, do you think i care??

Tis God I will stand for. Tis His salvation and His plan.