Predestination: Meaning and Application

[Jarthur001]

James-

Run your post through spell-check. I am NOT picking on you. I don't care if people spell things incorrectly at times, but you, (UNINTENTIONALY), said something, (I KNOW), you do not mean.

I think we are so close to believing the same thing. (It took us long enough to figure it out)

I don't believe we have changed our views, we just understand each other better.

my spelling
I would like to say that I did this to show you my point. But if I said this..I would be fibbing.

The point...You was placed here to help me Blammo on my spelling.

I get in such a rush at times...I do better when I type then check...then send.
**********
The real battle is more in the words used in the points of the outline. As you know I dislike the word "Limited" atonement for both side limit atonement, and this is not a clear picture of Calvinisim. Likewise...Calvinist often talk so much about "before the world was formed" that they forget to share that God works in our lives as He unfolds His plan. Its not that Calvinist do not believe it, its more where they draw the battle lines. A very good picture of this was the mouse in the maze story BP/T shared with us.

I hoping to address then rest of what I said to Ben, but the way my day is going, I'm not sure I will get to it till tonight.

 

[bound]

Grace and Peace Everyone,

Unfortunately I haven't had the time to respond to this very interesting topic of discussion but I have taken the time to follow along and although I do actually greatly appreciate Brother JArthur001's efforts to explain Calvinist Theology I find myself firmly agreeing with the views expressed by Brother Benjamin although I don't condone expressing them in a rude or hostile way as I have see some Brothers on both sides do from time to time.

Regardless I've found a lot to reflect on and it's clearly an area which I need to explore some more. Hopefully I will have the time this weekend to post my thoughts. Sorry I've been unable to contribute as much as I'd like.

God Bless.

 

[npetreley]

I'm pleased to know we finally agree on something. I want you to know, this is the way I have always remembered it. I have not changed my view on free-will. Because of pride, I by my own free-will rejected the gospel many times. When I realized my lost and helpless state, the Holy Spirit convinced me, and I believed. I believe God foreknew that night would come, and foreknew He would be there to save me.

When the Holy Spirit convinced me, I realized my lost and helpless state, and I believed.

Fixed. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Blammo]

When the Holy Spirit convinced me, I realized my lost and helpless state, and I believed.

Fixed. :smilewinkgrin:

Yes, I could see it that way.

 

[J.D.]

Blammo, your testimony is perfectly calvinistic.

1. Yes, it was YOUR free will that led you to resist and reject Chirst many times.

2. Yes, the time came when the Holy Spirit convinced you, and you believed.

3. And yes, God foreknew the whole outcome, and was there in the form of His Spirit to reveal the truth to you.

Just like all prayer is calvinistic, all true conversion testimonies are calvinistic. They should always start with "I can't explain it, but something just changed in me..." Like the man said "All I know is I was blind, but now I see".

Even C.S. Lewis, a famous free willer, said "All I know is that when I got into the car [a motorcycle side car, on a short trip], I was not a Christian; and when I got out of the car, I was a Christian".

 

[Blammo]

Blammo, your testimony is perfectly calvinistic.

1. Yes, it was YOUR free will that led you to resist and reject Chirst many times.

2. Yes, the time came when the Holy Spirit convinced you, and you believed.

3. And yes, God foreknew the whole outcome, and was there in the form of His Spirit to reveal the truth to you.

Just like all prayer is calvinistic, all true conversion testimonies are calvinistic. They should always start with "I can't explain it, but something just changed in me..." Like the man said "All I know is I was blind, but now I see".

Even C.S. Lewis, a famous free willer, said "All I know is that when I got into the car [a motorcycle side car, on a short trip], I was not a Christian; and when I got out of the car, I was a Christian".

Well, I guess I can be in your club then. But, I still don't want anyone calling me a calvinist. I will study the "five points" a little more closely. However, even if I find myself in agreement with them, I still don't want anyone calling me a calvinist. I doubt I will agree with the "five points" though. I think what you just discovered is we "free-willers" don't believe we saved ourselves. I may be wrong, but, it matters not, I'm saved.

God bless you, J.D. Please don't take offense.

 

[J.D.]

Well, I guess I can be in your club then. But, I still don't want anyone calling me a calvinist. I will study the "five points" a little more closely. However, even if I find myself in agreement with them, I still don't want anyone calling me a calvinist. I doubt I will agree with the "five points" though. I think what you just discovered is we "free-willers" don't believe we saved ourselves. I may be wrong, but, it matters not, I'm saved.

God bless you, J.D. Please don't take offense.

Offended? Man, you've made my day! The first step toward becoming Free Grace, predestinarian, sovereigntist, is to learn all the words to avoid being called a c_____ist! I went through it. My wife is currently going through it. She said to me "It makes sense to me now - but don't use that word!" So, I don't use it.

To tell you the truth, I still don't like the word precisely because it is such a lightening rod of controversy, and it was always said with such revulsion in the church I came up through.

But, I am one. What else can I say?

 

[Jarthur001]

Offended? Man, you've made my day! The first step toward becoming Free Grace, predestinarian, sovereigntist, is to learn all the words to avoid being called a c_____ist! I went through it. My wife is currently going through it. She said to me "It makes sense to me now - but don't use that word!" So, I don't use it.

To tell you the truth, I still don't like the word precisely because it is such a lightening rod of controversy, and it was always said with such revulsion in the church I came up through.

But, I am one. What else can I say?

Amen....

Tis the Doctrines of Grace. But..people still call ya a Calvinist.

*********************

Blammo...I would say..welcome to the "club".
But the truth is..You was always part of us.


Not a Ca%$L#@!!!..but a DoctrineOfGraceist

Sola Scriptura, Soli Deo Gloria!, Solo Christo!, Sola Gratia, Sola Fide​

 

[Brother Bob]

Well, let me throw a little cold water on it. We believe the Spirit strives with all men not just you and not just Blammo. "I stand at the door and knock, if any man will hear my voice I will come in and sup with him and he with me. Don't be led astray Blammo for they are not telling you the whole story. They believe you were the "elect" so the Holy Spirit strove with you but they don't believe it Strives with the non-elect. They still believe the lost can't do as you did and take heed to the Holy Spirit. The Bible teaches that the Spirit strives with all men and it is those that take heed that are saved and they take heed by believing. They don't believe all men can do what you did. Read the Bible and don't let them lead you astray into believeing that you were chosen and maybe your child be left behind.

We all believe you are saved by Grace but they believe that God put that faith in you and made you believe. That is not a loving God to do that to you and leave the rest of your family out. You do as you wish but for me and my house we will serve the Lord in Spirit and in Truth. Also, I will preach to your family if they ever around me that they have as much chance to be saved as you did. peace

When the Holy Spirit taught me I was a sinner and was lost and needed to repent and believe to be saved, I took heed to the Spirit and through my faith I receive Grace which is the Saving Grace of God.

Tis a fine line we walk here Blammo, the difference is we believe what they do that Grace is what saves you. The difference is they believe God changed you so you would believe and we believe that you must change (which is to repent) and believe to be saved.

Tell me when you went to that church "why were you going, were you repenting of your sins and begging God to forgive you?"

You better pray your family are the "elect" also.

I ask you Blammo? Who is doing the sowing in the following Scriptures?

Galatians, chapter 6
7: Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8: For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Man is not a Rock!!!

 

[2BHizown]

More cold water here, I guess.

Rev 3 : 20 is speaking to believers, members of the lukewarm church, not unbelievers. Christ addresses the angel and instructs him to write in v. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hear my voice and opens the door, "I will come in to him and dine with him and he with Me. To him who overcomes, I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

 

[Brother Bob]

More cold water here, I guess.

Rev 3 : 20 is speaking to believers, members of the lukewarm church, not unbelievers. Christ addresses the angel and instructs him to write in v. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hear my voice and opens the door, "I will come in to him and dine with him and he with Me. To him who overcomes, I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."
__________________

So, you believe in a fall. Don't you think there were unbelievers among them or were they falling all over the place.

 

[Blammo]

Brother Bob,

Just because they think I have converted doesn't mean you should too. I'm still with ya. I simply told them a bit of my testimony to show them we agree on how I got saved. If they think that makes me a calvinist, let them rejoice. I am a Bible Believing Baptist Christian.

My name is Blammo, and I am a believer in saving grace, (through faith).:thumbs:

 

[Brother Bob]

They act like they don't hear us when we say we believed that we were saved by Grace also, but through faith.

 

[bound]

Grace and Peace Jarthur001 and other Calvinist Theologians,

Could you give me some insight into how you understand this passage of Scripture...

For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? - Romans 11:16-24

Thank you and God Bless

 

[Blammo]

They act like they don't hear us when we say we believed that we were saved by Grace also, but through faith.

When I was lost I did not seek God, but:

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

 

[Brother Bob]

Why were you going to Church? Just an honest question, think about it.

John, chapter 8
21": Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

"22": Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.

"23": And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

"24": I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

 

[2BHizown]

So, you believe in a fall. Don't you think there were unbelievers among them or were they falling all over the place.

No, they had not lost their salvation! This was to spur them on to return to their first love, increase their zeal, draw closer to the Lord, part with their worldly ways, dig deeper into the ways of God, not man! A warning as it were!

 

[Brother Bob]

No, they had not lost their salvation! This was to spur them on to return to their first love, increase their zeal, draw closer to the Lord, part with their worldly ways, dig deeper into the ways of God, not man! A warning as it were!__________________

A very stern warning wouldn't you say? "except you repent, I will remove the candlestick out of its place."

 

[2BHizown]

:thumbs: We all need to heed!

 

[Blammo]

Why were you going to Church? Just an honest question, think about it.

Bob,

If you're asking me, I wasn't going to church when I heard the gospel. I didn't even have a Bible. My cousin did, and she preached at me every chance she got. (No I don't believe women should be pastors, but witnesses you betcha)

I used to hide when I saw her coming. I avoided her as best I could. Was it her I was afraid of? I doubt it. The word of God is powerful indeed, very convicting. I said I was good, she showed me Isaiah 64:6, I said I was not a sinner, she showed me Romans 3:23 and 5:12, I said I didn't believe God would send me to hell, she showed me Revelation 20:15. That's just a small sampling of the word of God I was resisting. No wonder I hid from her, and it wasn't her that I was afraid of, was it? You can't tell me I was afraid of paper and ink, and you can't say it was my (girl) cousin I was afraid of either. Was the Spirit of God working on me all through this? Who do you think was scaring me? There was no power in the paper and ink, and believe me, my cousin in wimpy. It was the word of God I feared.