Predestination

[atpollard]

Quite clearly in the same chapter which mentions predestination it clearly says when we recieve the adoption.
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
when do you recieve the above? its not while your on this earth is it ?

I received the Fruit of the Spirit while on this earth:

• But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. [Galatians 5:16-24 NASB]

I have received the adoption and redemption of my body IN PART:

• So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-- for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him] so that we may also be glorified with [Him.] [Romans 8:12-17 NASB]
• I thank my God in all my remembrance of you, always offering prayer with joy in my every prayer for you all, in view of your participation in the gospel from the first day until now. [For I am] confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. For it is only right for me to feel this way about you all, because I have you in my heart, since both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel, you all are partakers of grace with me. For God is my witness, how I long for you all with the affection of Christ Jesus. And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in real knowledge and all discernment, so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ; having been filled with the fruit of righteousness which [comes] through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God. [Philippians 1:3-11 NASB]

One day I will receive the redemption of my body IN FULL:

• Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. "O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?" The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. [1 Corinthians 15:50-57 NASB]

 

[Barry Johnson]

I received the Fruit of the Spirit while on this earth:

• But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. [Galatians 5:16-24 NASB]

I have received the adoption and redemption of my body IN PART:

• So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-- for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him] so that we may also be glorified with [Him.] [Romans 8:12-17 NASB]
• I thank my God in all my remembrance of you, always offering prayer with joy in my every prayer for you all, in view of your participation in the gospel from the first day until now. [For I am] confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. For it is only right for me to feel this way about you all, because I have you in my heart, since both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel, you all are partakers of grace with me. For God is my witness, how I long for you all with the affection of Christ Jesus. And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in real knowledge and all discernment, so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ; having been filled with the fruit of righteousness which [comes] through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God. [Philippians 1:3-11 NASB]

One day I will receive the redemption of my body IN FULL:

• Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. "O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?" The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. [1 Corinthians 15:50-57 NASB]

You have not recieved in Part the redemption of the body . its not a instalment scheme . The Spirit of Adoption is separate from the Redemption of the body .

 

[Barry Johnson]

You have not recieved in Part the redemption of the body . its not a instalment scheme . The Spirit of Adoption is separate from the Redemption of the body .

All you are doing is trying to interpret to suit the idea that you have been Adopted when you were saved . Thats not the biblical view of adoption . We are a child of God through the new birth . But we are not Adopted ( biblical non western / American view of Adoption . ) when we believe. its a future hope that we await . We look forward to the Adoption . Meanwhile we have the SPIRIT Of !! Adoption . Which is different to Romans 8 23 which we are predestined to . You are confused with calvernism which teaches Augustines idea that people who didn't exist who are predetermined to be saved . God then loses them , they become lost , aliens , enemies, without hope , without God . Then God awakens them with hindu enlightenment irresistibly with an effectual inward call , causes them to be born again in order they can believe the Gosepl. Which is completely foreign to the scriptures , beyond a paradigm in search of proof texts .

 

[Mikey]

I don't think that it is right to say that anyone "hates" in regard doctrine. All parties affirm salvation as the grace of God to sinners who do not merit salvation. Where people disagree is in the details.

Yes but what we mean by Grace and what it is, matters.

The differing sides in this discussion have very different concepts as to what grace is.

 

[JonC]

Yes but what we mean by Grace and what it is, matters.

The differing sides in this discussion have very different concepts as to what grace is.

Definitions are often the root of disagreements.

 

[atpollard]

You have not recieved in Part the redemption of the body .

Yes, I have. Deny it if you must, but the promise is not only for the future:

[Romans 6:1-23 NASB]
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with [Him] in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be [in the likeness] of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with [Him,] in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin.

Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin [as] instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone [as] slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in [further] lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[atpollard]

You are confused with calvernism

... but at least I can spell Calvinism. That you DELIBERATELY misspell it over and over speaks volumes.

 

[atpollard]

All you are doing is trying to interpret to suit the idea that you have been Adopted when you were saved . Thats not the biblical view of adoption . We are a child of God through the new birth . But we are not Adopted ( biblical non western / American view of Adoption . ) when we believe. its a future hope that we await . We look forward to the Adoption . Meanwhile we have the SPIRIT Of !! Adoption . Which is different to Romans 8 23 which we are predestined to . You are confused with calvernism which teaches Augustines idea that people who didn't exist who are predetermined to be saved . God then loses them , they become lost , aliens , enemies, without hope , without God . Then God awakens them with hindu enlightenment irresistibly with an effectual inward call , causes them to be born again in order they can believe the Gosepl. Which is completely foreign to the scriptures , beyond a paradigm in search of proof texts .

Your opinion without scriptural support is noted, but I will stand by what I read and quoted in Galatians and Romans and Philippians and Corinthians.

 

[JD731]

I often hear the argument that we are predestinated for the adoption after we believe. How is this view maintained in light of Romans 8:29-30?

Romans 8:29-30 KJV
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. [30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Notice the order given is this passage:

Foreknown
Predestinated
Called
Justified
Glorified

However the typical baptist framework requires this order:

Foreknown
Called
(Correct Response)
Justified
Predestinated
Glorified

How do you account for the fact that we were predestinated to be conformed to Christ before we were called?

A more biblical perspective on Rom 8:29-30;

This context beginning with Rom 7:1 and going through Rom 11:36 must be understood as an explanation of the history that had proceeded from the resurrection of Jesus Christ until the time this epistle was written in AD 58. This would take in the historical account of Acts 1 through Acts 18 when Paul wrote Romans.

God views Israel corporately as his son as well as individually The Law of Moses that was given to them and that governed them for 1500 years was the method of God to bring them to repentance and faith in God's sacrifice that he provided for their sins, which is his own perfect and sinless son,Jesus Christ and to birth them as the family of God by the Spirit where they would no longer be servants but sons of God.

Imagine if there were no Romans 7 through 11 but there was a history of Acts 1 through 10. No one would know what God was doing as Israel, his son, rejected his salvation through Christ, saving only a small remnant who would believe and grafting in gentiles to accomplish his eternal purpose of forming his church, the body and bride of Christ.

There is truth that one may apply to themselves in these chapters but these chapters are to be understood in a Jewish context. For an explanation of the gentiles inclusion into the body see Ephesians.

 

[Mikey]

Definitions are often the root of disagreements.

Yeah, without acknowledging the definitions thaen all that happens is people speaking past each other. So really before discuss the issue of predestination, there really should be a discussion on Grace.

 

[Barry Johnson]

... but at least I can spell Calvinism. That you DELIBERATELY misspell it over and over speaks volumes.

I thinc you're bieng a litle harsch.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Yes, I have. Deny it if you must, but the promise is not only for the future:

[Romans 6:1-23 NASB]
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with [Him] in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be [in the likeness] of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with [Him,] in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin.

Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin [as] instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone [as] slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in [further] lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The promise of a body that is sinless and will never die is clearly not in any way now and not yet. This body is a body of death according to Paul. Are you sinless and able to walk through walls ?

 

[Barry Johnson]

Your opinion without scriptural support is noted, but I will stand by what I read and quoted in Galatians and Romans and Philippians and Corinthians.

8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14¶How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18¶But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19¶But I say, Did

Your opinion without scriptural support is noted, but I will stand by what I read and quoted in Galatians and Romans and Philippians and Corinthians.

Predestination is of existing saints to adoption/glorification, not sinners to conversion. (Eph. 1:5, 11; Rom. 8:23, 29-30)

3. Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)

4. Adoption is the future redemption of the body, not conversion. (Rom. 8:23, 15-17; Gal. 4:1-6)

5. Sinners become sons of God through the new birth, not through adoption. (John 1:12-13)

6. There are 2 callings: Gospel and vocational, not inward or outward or effectual or ineffectual, etc… (2 Thess. 2:14; Eph. 4:1; Rom. 8:28; 2 Cor. 5:20)

7. Christ’s life, not his death is what saves. (Rom. 5:10; 1 Cor. 15:17)

8. Sinner is saved by regeneration, not atonement. (Tit. 3:5)

9. Glorification is what’s limited, not atonement. (Rom. 3:23; 8:17-30)

10. When Christ said, “It is finished,” on the cross, everyone was still in their sins as per 1 Cor. 15:17.

11. Atonement is one component of many components in salvation. It alone is not what saves. (Tit. 3:5; Rom. 5:10)

12. Atonement is a prerequisite for salvation, not the execution of it. (Rom. 5, 8; 2 Cor. 5; Tit. 3:5).

13. The Atonement must be received. (Rom. 5:11, 17; Jn. 1:12; 1 Cor. 15:1-4)

14. The Atonement does not glorify anyone. (Rom. 8)

15. What Calvinists call “the golden chain of redemption” contains no direct reference to the atonement. (Rom. 8:29-30)

16. Belief that salvation for anyone was secured on the cross constitutes a denial of the necessity of the resurrection (1 Cor. 15:17)

17. Salvation is eternally secured by the sealing of the spirit, not “election.” (Eph. 1:13-14; 4:30; 2 Cor. 1:22)

 

[Twiceborn]

@Barry Johnson

We were predestinated for the adoption before we were called by God "whom he did predestinate, them he also called".

I also believe that there is an "outward call" of the gospel. A call for all men everywhere to repent. The Bible is clear that "many are called, but few are chosen".
But the Bible is also clear that there is a special call that comes directly from God, the call that makes us "the called according to His purpose".

Here is some of what Paul has to say about this call.

God calls His people through the gospel:
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Only those who have been "called" by God will believe the outward call of a preacher:
1 Corinthians 1:23-24
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Not everyone is "called" in this way. God chose who He would call very specifically:
1 Corinthians 1:26-31
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

 

[Barry Johnson]

@Barry Johnson

We were predestinated for the adoption before we were called by God "whom he did predestinate, them he also called".

I also believe that there is an "outward call" of the gospel. A call for all men everywhere to repent. The Bible is clear that "many are called, but few are chosen".
But the Bible is also clear that there is a special call that comes directly from God, the call that makes us "the called according to His purpose".

Here is some of what Paul has to say about this call.

God calls His people through the gospel:
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Only those who have been "called" by God will believe the outward call of a preacher:
1 Corinthians 1:23-24
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Not everyone is "called" in this way. God chose who He would call very specifically:
1 Corinthians 1:26-31
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Was Judas chosen ?

 

[Yeshua1]

Was Judas chosen ?

To be the One foretold to betray the Messiah!

 

[Barry Johnson]

To be the One foretold to betray the Messiah!

He was chosen .So can it be that the 12 were chosen and that it doesn't say ' before they existed they were chosen.

 

[Barry Johnson]

To be the One foretold to betray the Messiah!

the 12 were chosen whilst they were living .

 

[Twiceborn]

Was Judas chosen ?

Did you even read my post?

 

[Twiceborn]

Did you even read my post?

The verse that I quoted about being chosen to salvation stated that they were chosen for this from the beginning.
That wasn't even the emphasis of my post though.