Predestination

[Hope of Glory]

What are you predestinated to?

 

[Blammo]

What are you predestinated to?

The adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself.
To be conformed to the image of His Son.

 

[Andy T.]

So you believe, like I do, that God predestinates according to foreknowledge?

No, I believe that God predestinates according to the good pleasure of his will, just as it says in Eph. 1:5 - "having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will". His foreknowledge is certainly apart of that, but it is not the complete basis for his predestination. Otherwise, if foreknowledge is the only basis for his predestination, then we have deism - God simply created the world and merely watches it unfold as he knew beforehand. That is not the God presented in Scripture.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Did God have to cause Adam and Eve to disobey, or did He foresee their disobedience? How could He know, unless He caused it or forsaw it?

Of course He foresaw their disobedience. He also created the serpent or devil to tempt them into doing what they did. I think God created Lucifer for His express purposes. In doing all this... He was able to do it and yet be present in the end of time. How does He do that? I don't know. It is a mystery how He is the first cause of all things, yet not the author of sin... nor does He tempt anyone. God is big enough.

 

[webdog]

But web.... how about God's omni loving those who are HIs? Without Him first loving us, this whole world would have already been completely distroyed.

I'll take it beyond this. For God so loved the world (cosmos...universe). His omni-love covers the cosmos. Whosoever falls under the "cosmos" falls under God's love.

 

[webdog]

I wonder why God inspired those words to be there then web?

Those words were communication to finite beings bound by time. They are for our purpose, and our purpose only.

I don't follow you here brother. I contend that God elected due to His fore loving us.

...and I contend God elected sovereignly( in regardes to Israel...the elect), but chosen us according to the requirements He put before us.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Those words were communication to finite beings bound by time. They are for our purpose, and our purpose only.

...and I contend God elected sovereignly( in regardes to Israel...the elect), but chosen us according to the requirements He put before us.

Ok, I understand....... I think. :laugh:

 

[Blammo]

Well, I agree with what you said above, except for the bolded italics part. So taking that sentence out and looking at the others, how is it that God must work sin into the hearts of people in order to be sovereign and predestine all that comes to pass?

BTW, Andy, I was saying what I thought you believed. I disagree with the bolded part too. Which leads me to another question...

Why is God ever disappointed or grieved? (Trust me, it's not a trap, I don't have an answer to this question)

 

[Hope of Glory]

What is adoption?

 

[Andy T.]

BTW, Andy, I was saying what I thought you believed. I disagree with the bolded part too. Which leads me to another question...

Why is God ever disappointed or grieved? (Trust me, it's not a trap, I don't have an answer to this question)

I probably don't have a good answer either, other than Scripture indicates that God grieves over sin. This is why I think there are different aspects of God's will - decretive will, preceptive will and will of disposition. When Jesus was on the cross, it was certainly his [decretive] will for this to happen, but the men who put him to death violated his [preceptive] will, and all the while, it grieved God the Father to see his Son being treated this way, going against God's will [of disposition].

"God's will" is one of those areas that we need theological terms to help us understand God and his ways, even though it is through a glass darkly. These theological terms are not an attempt to "put God in a box" - rather, they are aids to us in our understanding.

 

[reformedbeliever]

BTW, Andy, I was saying what I thought you believed. I disagree with the bolded part too. Which leads me to another question...

Why is God ever disappointed or grieved? (Trust me, it's not a trap, I don't have an answer to this question)

Good question Blammo. I've always had it explained that this is anthropomorphic language. But i'm sure that a perfect God would be disappointed or grieved... even though it was in His will that such things are to be.

 

[Blammo]

What is adoption?

You ask questions that, when I study to answer them, scare me.

 

[reformedbeliever]

I probably don't have a good answer either, other than Scripture indicates that God grieves over sin. This is why I think there are different aspects of God's will - decretive will, preceptive will and will of disposition. When Jesus was on the cross, it was certainly his [decretive] will for this to happen, but the men who put him to death violated his [preceptive] will, and all the while, it grieved God the Father to see his Son being treated this way, going against God's will [of disposition].

"God's will" is one of those areas that we need theological terms to help us understand God and his ways, even though it is through a glass darkly. These theological terms are not an attempt to "put God in a box" - rather, they are aids to us in our understanding.

I've really wrestled with the idea of God's will being other than one will. One of my professors uses the same theological terms for God's will/s as you. I've heard them called other terms also.
Maybe it is helpful for us to understand these terms; decreed, preceptive, and dispositional will. It is just that i've seemed to be able to justify in my own mind and study of the scripture, those seemingly hard verses... such as God supposedly loving everyone. Psalms 5 and other scriptures say otherwise. God not willing that any would perish........ contextually He is not willing that any of the elect perish. I think maybe a great thread where we could all benefit from the study would be one that addresses God's various will/s. I know that I could benefit from it Andy. Would you start such a thread?... or discuss it here.... I don't mind.

 

[Hope of Glory]

You ask questions that, when I study to answer them, scare me.

Good. That means that I'm successful. (Well, not really in scaring, but making you think.)

 

[Andy T.]

I've really wrestled with the idea of God's will being other than one will.

I think the answer lies in the priorities of the different aspects of God's will. I think it is clear that God's primary will is his will of decree. If his preceptive will took first priority in all things, then he would never let anyone sin against him. Obviously he does let people rebel, which indicates that his will of decree takes priority over his preceptive will. The same with his dispositional will - if it was his [decretive] will that he would never be grieved, then he would decree in such a way that he is never grieved. But he is grieved (at least, in our understanding), therefore he decreed that he himself would be grieved.

As far as starting a new thread to start a discussion - I think we are discussing it now.

 

[reformedbeliever]

I think the answer lies in the priorities of the different aspects of God's will. I think it is clear that God's primary will is his will of decree. If his preceptive will took first priority in all things, then he would never let anyone sin against him. Obviously he does let people rebel, which indicates that his will of decree takes priority over his preceptive will. The same with his dispositional will - if it was his [decretive] will that he would never be grieved, then he would decree in such a way that he is never grieved. But he is grieved (at least, in our understanding), therefore he decreed that he himself would be grieved.

As far as starting a new thread to start a discussion - I think we are discussing it now.

Wow.......... :laugh: I'm not so sure I understand all that I think I know..... I thought I did, but now i'm not sure... I think.
I'll have to chew on this while I go pick up my daughter at school. Thanks bro.

 

[AAA]

Why do so many say "I don't believe in predestination"? If they believe in an Almighty sovereign God, then they would have to believe in predestination. Either God is all knowing or He isn't. Those who do not believe in predestination would have to be open theist. How could they not be?

If anyone says that they do NOT believe in predestination, then, they also have to admit that they do NOT believe the BIBLE, because predestination can be found in ROMANS. I find we as people have to define what this term means, because not all people define as the calvinist do.

I can easily see how predestination and the responsibility of man can both be true. If someone makes a decision and acts upon it, then God has predestined it to happen. If something happens, then God knew it would happen, and it does happen if God knew it would. Men still make the choices according to their natures or the providence of God, and it still was predestined by God.
Anyone disagree? :laugh:

This makes sense to me, Not that I totaly agree with it, But I have simply nothing to against it.......:laugh:

 

[Andy T.]

The adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself.
To be conformed to the image of His Son.

As to the question of what we as Christians are predestined to - the above are correct, but let's not forget Rom. 8:30 which continues from v. 29 - namely, our calling, justification and glorification.

And then looking to Eph. 1:5 - this verse is in the middle of one continuous thought found in verses 3-14. In these verses we find such things as redemption (v. 7), forgiveness (v.7), revelation of the mystery of his will (v. 9), our inheritance (v. 10), our trust in Christ (v. 12), and our sealing by the Spirit (v. 13).

 

[Allan]

I've really wrestled with the idea of God's will being other than one will. One of my professors uses the same theological terms for God's will/s as you. I've heard them called other terms also.
Maybe it is helpful for us to understand these terms; decreed, perceptive, and dispositional will. It is just that I’ve seemed to be able to justify in my own mind and study of the scripture, those seemingly hard verses... such as God supposedly loving everyone. Psalms 5 and other scriptures say otherwise. God not willing that any would perish........ contextually He is not willing that any of the elect perish. I think maybe a great thread where we could all benefit from the study would be one that addresses God's various will/s. I know that I could benefit from it Andy. Would you start such a thread?... or discuss it here.... I don't mind.

I'll jump in on it to.

I believe in predestination, just not in the Cal sense.
So to speak about it, one has to define much of what one is talking about.

So there needs to be a defining of terms: One set is set forth by Reformed as it is used by some Cals.
But the Non-Cals use these but there is only two: Decreed and permissive wills. Both work to the same end but do not have the same functions.
One states: Many are called FEW are Chosen. (an example of many)
Another states that God allows men to reject Him who could have been saved. 2 Thes 2:10 (an example of many) ...they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

We can go on and on showing these two types of aspects in the mind and heart of God. Gods sovereignty and Mans responsibility.
The permissive will allows for Gods grieving, and gladness as described in scripture as man receives or disposes of God truths revealed for which man is responsible.
This establishes God character in all aspects of His personhood.

But His decree will is that which is set forth without deviation to its appointed end establishing the totality of God as God in all aspects of his Omni's. (or His nature)

Yes there is much more to them that that but that is the basic break down that I can remember off hand at 4 am. :laugh:

So we have God telling us to Love all but to lavish a more dear or exalting love one other believers.
But that is because we are reflections of God and His Character.
For God so loved the world (sinners) that he gave...whosoever believes...will have eternal life. And others in like manner.
God loves His enemies but God prefers in Love His children over those who are not and lavishes that love upon them in greater measure.
So the that God hates the wicked but loves the righteous.

 

[Allan]

Reformed:

As for Gods love:

I would ask that you take a moment to ponder the very real potential that Gods love is more than ONE aspect scripturally speaking. Much in the same as mans.
We are to live out lives that represent God in word, deed, AND Character. Right?

God tell US also to love our enemies.
Does God ask us to do what He will not and does not do?
Remember God blesses the wicked along side the righteous for He makes the rain to fall on both and the sun to rise on them both as well. The wicked live, breathe, laugh, triumph, and even hear Gods word. Is that not love to bless them just as he does the righteous?

God also tells us to love the brethren.
Does God expect that love to be the same as the love we are to bestow on our enemies?
No. We know this because God tells us in the Holy Writ "to prefer one another"
A good example of this loving two but preferring one over another is the scripture which says:

Luk 14:26 If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Hate can mean to love less, but in sense of being perfered OVER another regarding something shared but is shared unequally.

Now don't get me wrong. God does Hate for God is love.
But what is the root of God's hate - Man or sin.
Though man is bound IN/TO Sin it is not man that God hates but the sinfulness OF man.

Let me back up and and try from a different point using a specific illistration:
Such as Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated. - I know you have a different view, but will you honestly hear me out and examine what I give??

Look at the Luke Passage from Matthews’s perspective:

Mat 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Did you know that Esau is the ONLY person in the entirety of scripture to be said to be hated by God. Why?
We know scripture says God does hate and it is those who live in unrighteousness, wickedness, and sinful ways. God hates those people.

Psa 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Hsa 9:15 All their wickedness [is] in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes [are] revolters.

Out of 171 verses with the words hate, hated, and hateth only these two depict God hating a people specifically and the rest show God hating the actions of sin, wickedness, and unrighteousness. (outside of the verses containing Esau and Jacob)
But even here in these two verses the hate is in conjunction with their actions not the person at some point before.
And one even speaks to the fact that God removes his love from a group because they choose to continue IN SIN. That love was that special love of the elect Israel specifically to Ephraim who was removed from the whole (before the whole itself was removed) but will eventually be brought back in. (that is another topic)

So in context Esau is the only person that scripture says God hated, more to the point - before he ever did any good or bad;
OR could it be:
Esau was hated (not perfered to, or Loved less) than Jacob due to Gods election to purpose of Jacob for bringing forth a Nation, who will be given Gods Word, and bring forth at the appointed time - Jesus the promised one to Abraham. The prophesy (in Romans and Gen) regarded two NATIONS that came from Issac the promised heir of lineage to Christ through Gods people (Nation) but only one child could the succesor. This is where we see God soveriegnly choosing Jacob over the natural tradition of it being the right of the first born - Esau. This is why it makes an adue about not having done anything good or bad.

Remember God told Rebekah that in thy womb are TWO NATIONS. And the Older shall serve the younger. That is the direct quote Romans 9 gives. The older shall serve the younger. Esau was never Jacobs servant but Esau's decendents WERE. They just like the others named in Romans 9 concerns the federal heads of their respective peoples. The hating of Esau in context is about prefering one over another to the point of being despised in comparision.

I don't want to go to far off topic but only used Romans 9 with Jacob and Esau as an example.

Sorry if I got to rambling but I am really bored tonight at work. I had very little to actaully do.