Predestination

Allan, I can go along with the idea of "permissive" will, but it falls under his will of decree, because whatever he permits, he certainly decrees. In fact, this what I've said a few times now - that God actively works good in people, but he does not actively work sin into people. So God is the author of all good in this world, but he is never the author of evil, even though he permits evil by his will of decree.

 

I agree as well.
Now you must define "decreed". :smilewinkgrin:

Does that mean that God determind what every person will do?
OR
Does that mean that God knowing all things (what He would do and what man would do) decreed that it should be just as He knows it to be?
IOW - unchanged and set forth.

OR
some other way....?

 

This last portion of Post #39:

Was actaully supposed to be just after the Luke (or around there) passage in Post #40 (toward the top)

 

The answer is probably...some other way. His decree is more than just foreknowledge or omniscience. He actively works in this world. And I believe he actively works in the hearts of men bringing about any good that comes about. He does not do that with sin, though. I think he keeps people from sinning at times, though - even the reprobate. He could have thwarted the plans of the 9/11 terrorists, for example. But he did not. I expect to learn in heaven of many other instances where he did thwart the evil plans of men, though. In both cases (where he thwarts and where he allows), it was his decree that it should be so. And it is all by the good pleasure of his [decretive] will. Being a history major myself, I expect to have countless history lessons in heaven where God shows us how and why he decreed the things that came to pass in this world. And yes, the lessons will be countless - ever learning and never exhausting the full knowledge and wisdom and glory of God.

In the end, I credit all good in this world to Almighty God alone. And that includes my faith and salvation and any good works I do thereafter. And that is where the Cal and non-Cal ultimately depart. We both affirm that sin is from the desire of the sinner and from Satan and his demons. And while we both affirm that God is a source, even the primary source, of all good, including faith, the Cal says, "it is all because of God," while the non-Cal says, "God can only save me if I permit him to." That's where we differ on God's permissive will - we both say God permits evil, but the non-Cal says that God also permits good (though he may actively work good, too). The Cal says that God actively works all good, which includes my ability to have faith.

 

That's good. But, it still doesn't answer the question: What is adoption?

What is redemption?

What is the mystery of his will?

What is our inheritance?

How does calling, justification, and glorification apply to us?

 

My, there is a lot there. Sounds like it could be a new thread for a new discussion. For now, I prefer sticking with the OP and predestination. But if anyone else wants to hash out these various definitions, then that is fine too.

 

How can this be

How can a relationship be formed when the object of that relationship has yet to exist?
I agree with the premise in that God exists in all times at the same time, but the relationship was not formed prior to my existence within that time. That being the case, if all people are born guilty, everyone is born enemies to God, meaning a relationship does not come into fruition until faith in Christ.

 

I realize that, but to use it the way you are would mean that Jeremiah existed prior to his existence. His foreknowledge stems both from His omniscience and omnipresence.

 

Thanks for the link.

The bolded I dont' agree with. As far as God is concerned, God existed in the past and the future at the same time Jeremiah was born. That's how He had a relationship with him. He existed at every moment of Jeremiah's life at the exact same time, as well as before his existence. There is no pre or fore with an omnipresent God, but there is a pre and fore with us. Jeremiah didn't exist before he existed, God existed before Jeremiah existed...and during...and after...and presently...all at the exact same time.

 

RB, this would have to make us omnitemporal, too. If we exist before we actually exist, where do the reprobate exist prior to their existence? I believe omnitemporalness is an attribute for God only.

 

Done! :thumbs: