Predestination

[Andy T.]

Allan, I can go along with the idea of "permissive" will, but it falls under his will of decree, because whatever he permits, he certainly decrees. In fact, this what I've said a few times now - that God actively works good in people, but he does not actively work sin into people. So God is the author of all good in this world, but he is never the author of evil, even though he permits evil by his will of decree.

 

[Allan]

Allan, I can go along with the idea of "permissive" will, but it falls under his will of decree, because whatever he permits, he certainly decrees. In fact, this what I've said a few times now - that God actively works good in people, but he does not actively work sin into people. So God is the author of all good in this world, but he is never the author of evil, even though he permits evil by his will of decree.

I agree as well.
Now you must define "decreed". :smilewinkgrin:

Does that mean that God determind what every person will do?
OR
Does that mean that God knowing all things (what He would do and what man would do) decreed that it should be just as He knows it to be?
IOW - unchanged and set forth.

OR
some other way....?

 

[Allan]

This last portion of Post #39:

So we have God telling us to Love all but to lavish a more dear or exalting love one other believers.
But that is because we are reflections of God and His Character.
For God so loved the world (sinners) that he gave...whosoever believes...will have eternal life. And others in like manner.
God loves His enemies but God prefers in Love His children over those who are not and lavishes that love upon them in greater measure.
So the that God hates the wicked but loves the righteous.

Was actaully supposed to be just after the Luke (or around there) passage in Post #40 (toward the top)

 

[Andy T.]

I agree as well.
Now you must define "decreed". :smilewinkgrin:

Does that mean that God determind what every person will do?
OR
Does that mean that God knowing all things (what He would do and what man would do) decreed that it should be just as He knows it to be?
IOW - unchanged and set forth.

OR
some other way....?

The answer is probably...some other way. His decree is more than just foreknowledge or omniscience. He actively works in this world. And I believe he actively works in the hearts of men bringing about any good that comes about. He does not do that with sin, though. I think he keeps people from sinning at times, though - even the reprobate. He could have thwarted the plans of the 9/11 terrorists, for example. But he did not. I expect to learn in heaven of many other instances where he did thwart the evil plans of men, though. In both cases (where he thwarts and where he allows), it was his decree that it should be so. And it is all by the good pleasure of his [decretive] will. Being a history major myself, I expect to have countless history lessons in heaven where God shows us how and why he decreed the things that came to pass in this world. And yes, the lessons will be countless - ever learning and never exhausting the full knowledge and wisdom and glory of God.

In the end, I credit all good in this world to Almighty God alone. And that includes my faith and salvation and any good works I do thereafter. And that is where the Cal and non-Cal ultimately depart. We both affirm that sin is from the desire of the sinner and from Satan and his demons. And while we both affirm that God is a source, even the primary source, of all good, including faith, the Cal says, "it is all because of God," while the non-Cal says, "God can only save me if I permit him to." That's where we differ on God's permissive will - we both say God permits evil, but the non-Cal says that God also permits good (though he may actively work good, too). The Cal says that God actively works all good, which includes my ability to have faith.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Reformed:

As for Gods love:

I would ask that you take a moment to ponder the very real potential that Gods love is more than ONE aspect scripturally speaking. Much in the same as mans.
We are to live out lives that represent God in word, deed, AND Character. Right?

God tell US also to love our enemies.
Does God ask us to do what He will not and does not do?
Remember God blesses the wicked along side the righteous for He makes the rain to fall on both and the sun to rise on them both as well. The wicked live, breathe, laugh, triumph, and even hear Gods word. Is that not love to bless them just as he does the righteous?

God also tells us to love the brethren.
Does God expect that love to be the same as the love we are to bestow on our enemies?
No. We know this because God tells us in the Holy Writ "to prefer one another"
A good example of this loving two but preferring one over another is the scripture which says:

Hate can mean to love less, but in sense of being perfered OVER another regarding something shared but is shared unequally.

Now don't get me wrong. God does Hate for God is love.
But what is the root of God's hate - Man or sin.
Though man is bound IN/TO Sin it is not man that God hates but the sinfulness OF man.

Let me back up and and try from a different point using a specific illistration:
Such as Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated. - I know you have a different view, but will you honestly hear me out and examine what I give??

Look at the Luke Passage from Matthews’s perspective:

Did you know that Esau is the ONLY person in the entirety of scripture to be said to be hated by God. Why?
We know scripture says God does hate and it is those who live in unrighteousness, wickedness, and sinful ways. God hates those people.


Out of 171 verses with the words hate, hated, and hateth only these two depict God hating a people specifically and the rest show God hating the actions of sin, wickedness, and unrighteousness. (outside of the verses containing Esau and Jacob)
But even here in these two verses the hate is in conjunction with their actions not the person at some point before.
And one even speaks to the fact that God removes his love from a group because they choose to continue IN SIN. That love was that special love of the elect Israel specifically to Ephraim who was removed from the whole (before the whole itself was removed) but will eventually be brought back in. (that is another topic)

So in context Esau is the only person that scripture says God hated, more to the point - before he ever did any good or bad;
OR could it be:
Esau was hated (not perfered to, or Loved less) than Jacob due to Gods election to purpose of Jacob for bringing forth a Nation, who will be given Gods Word, and bring forth at the appointed time - Jesus the promised one to Abraham. The prophesy (in Romans and Gen) regarded two NATIONS that came from Issac the promised heir of lineage to Christ through Gods people (Nation) but only one child could the succesor. This is where we see God soveriegnly choosing Jacob over the natural tradition of it being the right of the first born - Esau. This is why it makes an adue about not having done anything good or bad.

Remember God told Rebekah that in thy womb are TWO NATIONS. And the Older shall serve the younger. That is the direct quote Romans 9 gives. The older shall serve the younger. Esau was never Jacobs servant but Esau's decendents WERE. They just like the others named in Romans 9 concerns the federal heads of their respective peoples. The hating of Esau in context is about prefering one over another to the point of being despised in comparision.

I don't want to go to far off topic but only used Romans 9 with Jacob and Esau as an example.

Sorry if I got to rambling but I am really bored tonight at work. I had very little to actaully do.

Thank you brother, and I agree with much of what you said. I think Psalms 5:5. The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity.... is pointing out that there are *people* whom God hates... not just the sin.
The point i'm making is this. Without our righteousness imputed by Christ, God would have to hate us. He is three times Holy. Look at it like this. God's dwelling has the most white of white carpet. We live in the sewer and we drip with the excretement that comes from the sewer. We try to approach God in His perfectly white carpeted dwelling. He not only turns us away.... He does so in a repulsive way. Without being covered with Christ.... God hates us. That is the best way I know to convey the meaning i'm trying to get across. His Holiness can not have a thing to do with, including love, someone who is not covered with the attoning sacrifice of Jesus. You see, I also see John 3:16 as saying that God loved all people in this manner, that He sent His Son to die for them....... the all people is all races of people... and that the offer is there for all inclusively or universally, but the fact is that they loved the darkness, so they must be born again. That is...... God can not love those who are not born again, or will be born again. You may have to show me how He does. Maybe i'm not seeing what you want me to see........ :laugh: I do know that there are more than one meaning to the word love however. Thanks bro,.

 

[reformedbeliever]

I'll jump in on it to.

I believe in predestination, just not in the Cal sense.
So to speak about it, one has to define much of what one is talking about.

So there needs to be a defining of terms: One set is set forth by Reformed as it is used by some Cals.
But the Non-Cals use these but there is only two: Decreed and permissive wills. Both work to the same end but do not have the same functions.
One states: Many are called FEW are Chosen. (an example of many)
Another states that God allows men to reject Him who could have been saved. 2 Thes 2:10 (an example of many) ...they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

We can go on and on showing these two types of aspects in the mind and heart of God. Gods sovereignty and Mans responsibility.
The permissive will allows for Gods grieving, and gladness as described in scripture as man receives or disposes of God truths revealed for which man is responsible.
This establishes God character in all aspects of His personhood.

But His decree will is that which is set forth without deviation to its appointed end establishing the totality of God as God in all aspects of his Omni's. (or His nature)

Yes there is much more to them that that but that is the basic break down that I can remember off hand at 4 am. :laugh:

So we have God telling us to Love all but to lavish a more dear or exalting love one other believers.
But that is because we are reflections of God and His Character.
For God so loved the world (sinners) that he gave...whosoever believes...will have eternal life. And others in like manner.
God loves His enemies but God prefers in Love His children over those who are not and lavishes that love upon them in greater measure.
So the that God hates the wicked but loves the righteous.

God loved those who are His before they were born. He foreknew (had a relationship) in a loving way, before they existed. We were born enemies of God who hated God... and had to be regenerated before we would love Him. Those whom God did not forelove, He still hates. I'm open to you helping me believe differently....... I just don't see it in scripture.

 

[Hope of Glory]

As to the question of what we as Christians are predestined to - the above are correct, but let's not forget Rom. 8:30 which continues from v. 29 - namely, our calling, justification and glorification.

And then looking to Eph. 1:5 - this verse is in the middle of one continuous thought found in verses 3-14. In these verses we find such things as redemption (v. 7), forgiveness (v.7), revelation of the mystery of his will (v. 9), our inheritance (v. 10), our trust in Christ (v. 12), and our sealing by the Spirit (v. 13).

That's good. But, it still doesn't answer the question: What is adoption?

What is redemption?

What is the mystery of his will?

What is our inheritance?

How does calling, justification, and glorification apply to us?

 

[Andy T.]

That's good. But, it still doesn't answer the question: What is adoption?

What is redemption?

What is the mystery of his will?

What is our inheritance?

How does calling, justification, and glorification apply to us?

My, there is a lot there. Sounds like it could be a new thread for a new discussion. For now, I prefer sticking with the OP and predestination. But if anyone else wants to hash out these various definitions, then that is fine too.

 

[webdog]

He foreknew (had a relationship) in a loving way, before they existed.

How can this be

How can a relationship be formed when the object of that relationship has yet to exist?
I agree with the premise in that God exists in all times at the same time, but the relationship was not formed prior to my existence within that time. That being the case, if all people are born guilty, everyone is born enemies to God, meaning a relationship does not come into fruition until faith in Christ.

 

[reformedbeliever]

My, there is a lot there. Sounds like it could be a new thread for a new discussion. For now, I prefer sticking with the OP and predestination. But if anyone else wants to hash out these various definitions, then that is fine too.

Nope....... this is *my* thread and I don't want it hijacked! :laugh:

Just kidding. :godisgood:

 

[reformedbeliever]

How can this be

How can a relationship be formed when the object of that relationship has yet to exist?
I agree with the premise in that God exists in all times at the same time, but the relationship was not formed prior to my existence within that time. That being the case, if all people are born guilty, everyone is born enemies to God, meaning a relationship does not come into fruition until faith in Christ.

Web, read Jeremiah 1: 5. "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."

The word yada is to know in an intimate way. As Adam knew his wife Eve.

 

[reformedbeliever]

How can this be

How can a relationship be formed when the object of that relationship has yet to exist?
I agree with the premise in that God exists in all times at the same time, but the relationship was not formed prior to my existence within that time. That being the case, if all people are born guilty, everyone is born enemies to God, meaning a relationship does not come into fruition until faith in Christ.

Read this link bro. http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/4027/aboutpredestination.html

 

[webdog]

Web, read Jeremiah 1: 5. "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."

The word yada is to know in an intimate way. As Adam knew his wife Eve.

I realize that, but to use it the way you are would mean that Jeremiah existed prior to his existence. His foreknowledge stems both from His omniscience and omnipresence.

 

[reformedbeliever]

I realize that, but to use it the way you are would mean that Jeremiah existed prior to his existence. His foreknowledge stems both from His omniscience and omnipresence.

As far as God is concerned, he did exist before he existed. So much so that God had a loving relationship with him.

 

[webdog]

As far as God is concerned, he did exist before he existed. So much so that God had a loving relationship with him.

Thanks for the link.

The bolded I dont' agree with. As far as God is concerned, God existed in the past and the future at the same time Jeremiah was born. That's how He had a relationship with him. He existed at every moment of Jeremiah's life at the exact same time, as well as before his existence. There is no pre or fore with an omnipresent God, but there is a pre and fore with us. Jeremiah didn't exist before he existed, God existed before Jeremiah existed...and during...and after...and presently...all at the exact same time.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Thanks for the link.

The bolded I dont' agree with. As far as God is concerned, God existed in the past and the future at the same time Jeremiah was born. That's how He had a relationship with him. He existed at every moment of Jeremiah's life at the exact same time, as well as before his existence. There is no pre or fore with an omnipresent God, but there is a pre and fore with us. Jeremiah didn't exist before he existed, God existed before Jeremiah existed...and during...and after...and presently...all at the exact same time.

But the Bible says "before you were born I knew yada you. Christ is the word which existed eternally with God also... but yet He became and man and moved through time as we know it. I think the "before you were born" means more than just God's omnipresence or omniscience. I think that God had a relationship with Jeremiah and us.... before we were born or even before the foundation of the world. I appreciate what you say about God's omnipresence... and believe that too. Its like I said about predestination.... if you do something you were predestined to do it, or it would not be done. If someone really wants to be saved, and exercises their wills to do so, it was predestined by God. :godisgood: That is easy huh? lol

 

[reformedbeliever]

Think about this web. Do we really exist or are we just a thought in God's mind? When talking about God's omnipresence....... it takes us to some pretty unimaginable places. I love science fiction ........ such as time travel... and the paradoxes that seem to be. Such as the grandfather paradox... which seems to favor predestintation. You could not go back in time and kill or cause to be killed your grandfather.... or you would never have existed to go back in time. :laugh:

 

[webdog]

I think the "before you were born" means more than just God's omnipresence or omniscience. I think that God had a relationship with Jeremiah and us.... before we were born or even before the foundation of the world.

RB, this would have to make us omnitemporal, too. If we exist before we actually exist, where do the reprobate exist prior to their existence? I believe omnitemporalness is an attribute for God only.

 

[reformedbeliever]

RB, this would have to make us omnitemporal, too. If we exist before we actually exist, where do the reprobate exist prior to their existence? I believe omnitemporalness is an attribute for God only.

When does a person's spirit come into being? At birth? At conception? That might make a good thread.

 

[webdog]

When does a person's spirit come into being? At birth? At conception? That might make a good thread.

Done! :thumbs: