Predestination

[Hope of Glory]

My, there is a lot there. Sounds like it could be a new thread for a new discussion. For now, I prefer sticking with the OP and predestination. But if anyone else wants to hash out these various definitions, then that is fine too.

These (or some of these) were the result of the "What are we predestinated to", "what is adoption" train of thought.

They have to do with predestination, as one was the answer to the previous.

But, I can alter it a bit:

Are we predestinated to be saved?

 

[Andy T.]

Are we predestinated to be saved?

My answer - Yes.

 

[Hope of Glory]

OK, then let's take a look at the verses that contain this word:

Acts 4:28 is pretty simple and straightforward: "For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."

It's part of a prayer that goes from verse 24 through 30.

The next one seems to be a bit more tricky:
Romans 8:29: For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

This seems to be talking about something beyond simply being saved. Those that he foreknew he predestinated to be conformed to the image of his son. Are all saved people conformed to the image of his son?

That they might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Well, it seems they were predestinated to be something special among many brethren. Why were the many brethren not predestinated? If they weren't predestinated, how were they saved? And since Matthew 12:50 tells us that brethren are only obedient saved people and not all saved people, what about those?

Romans 8:30: Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Those who are predestinated are called and those who are called are justified and those who are justified are glorified.

As saved people, we have a hope of glory; glory is not assured.

Matthew 22:14 tells us that many are called, but few are called out from among the called.

We're all given the light that we need to be saved. He died that all might be saved. But, only many are called, and only a few are called out from among them.

What are we called for? 1 Thessalonians 2:12 says that it's unto his Kingdom and glory, not simply salvation.

1 Corinthians 2:7: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world [ages] unto our glory:

Here, it's speaking of a mystery; you have to be initiated into it. Everyone can be saved, but not everyone will be initiated into this mystery. They speak by means of a mystery, thereby delivering a doctrine hidden from human understanding.

The doctrine of salvation is not hidden. It's not a secret. It's the simplest thing in the world! "Believe (aorist; event; a simple, mental assent) on the Lord Jesus and you will (not "may" and not conditional upon anything other than "believe") be saved."

This hidden wisdom was predestinated before the ages. Then it says why: Unto our glory.

Ephesians 1:5: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

This says that we (Paul and the saints who are faithful; not all saved people are included in this; "saints" are those who live a faithful lifestyle) are predestinated unto the adoption of sons.

This phrase "adoptions of sons" is one word that means "son placement". It has to do with position within the family. This word is the same word that is used in Romans 8:15, and is a compound word containing the words “huios” and “thesis”. The word “huios” means “son”; a mature child. The word “thesis” means “to put”, “to lay”, “to appoint”, or “to ordain”. Not son-ship itself, but son-ship conferred. There is not a single hint to suggest that the word “huiothesia” means “adoption” in the sense of placing into a family. The word “huiothesia” means “To appoint as a son” or “To ordain to son-ship”.

This word denotes approval, and children (who are servants, btw) thereby are conferred the position of "son". Using "adoption" to mean placing into a family is a relatively recent usage of the word, and mostly in US English. In the rest of the English speaking world, it's still a secondary usage. (Besides, why does someone who is born from above into the family need to get placed into the family again; when my child was born, I did not then need to go several years later down to the courthouse and place him into my family.)

So, we (the saints who are faithful; obedient saved people) are predestinated unto approval and placement into a position of authority.

That's not how you get saved. To get saved, you believe, and you are born from above into the family.

And last, but not least, Ephesians 1:11: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

It's talking about inheritance. Inheritance is a family matter. Spiritual salvation is not our inheritance, as we don't have our inheritance until after we're saved, and we can blow our inheritance, just as the prodigal son did. We can lose our inheritance, but we cannot lose our salvation, and different people will receive a different inheritance.

 

[npetreley]

Romans 8:29: For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

I don't agree at all with your theology, but assuming you were right, where do you see the part in there about how His predestination depends on our degree of faithfulness? I can't find it.

It says that "whom he foreknew, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed". He predestined whom he foreknew to be conformed. There's nothing in there that says we conform ourselves to the image of his Son through our own faithfulness. To be quite blunt, you stuck that part in there to make the text conform to your theology.

 

[Andy T.]

HoG,

I disagree with your doctrine of MK and dual salvation, so there is not much, if anything, we agree upon. In your eyes, I guess that means I will be punished in hell for 1000 years (how awful to think of another believer, by the way).

I will say of Romans 8:29 that being conformed to the image of his Son is something that will happen to every believer in full at their glorification (v. 30) and resurrection.

 

[Allan]

God loved those who are His before they were born. He foreknew (had a relationship) in a loving way, before they existed. We were born enemies of God who hated God... and had to be regenerated before we would love Him. Those whom God did not forelove, He still hates. I'm open to you helping me believe differently....... I just don't see it in scripture.

Then you are choosing to be blind. :laugh:

 

[Rippon]

So , Allan , would you rather believe the following ?

god loved those who potentially could have , might be His . He knew ahead of time before they existed that He could possibly have an acquaintanceship with them . We all were born in an unfriendly state with respect to god . We did not like him . We had to first love Him -- then He loved us in return . Those who god knew in advance would love Him -- He loves ( of course He kinda loves the rest in an inferior sort of love . ) .

I'm sorry, but RB's understanding is more biblical .

 

[Hope of Glory]

I don't agree at all with your theology, but assuming you were right, where do you see the part in there about how His predestination depends on our degree of faithfulness? I can't find it.

It says that "whom he foreknew, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed". He predestined whom he foreknew to be conformed. There's nothing in there that says we conform ourselves to the image of his Son through our own faithfulness. To be quite blunt, you stuck that part in there to make the text conform to your theology.

Umm... I don't think I said that his predestination depends on our faithfulness. His predestination is based solely upon his sovereign will.

Our reaction to it (faithfulness) will determine the outcome.

We can choose not to be conformed to the image of of his son, even if he called us to be. Free will and all that.

But, it is our faithfulness to his will (obedience) that results in us being conformed to the image of his son. He is the artist, but we don't have to cooperate.

"Conformed (summorphos) to the image" is an adjective (well, conformed is) from sun and morphē and it represents an inward change. "Image" is used of Christ as the very image of the Father in 2 Corinthians 4:4 and Colossians 1:15.

Philippians 2:6 shows us "form". Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Here in Romans 8:29, we have both morphē and eikōn to express the gradual change in us till we acquire the likeness of Christ the Son of God so that we ourselves shall ultimately have the family likeness of sons of God. Glorious destiny.

"Christian" means "Christ like". That's the image of Christ. Not all saved people do that. (Unless you think that a person's actions determine whether they are really and truly saved.)

And no, once I actually looked at what the words actually said, I had to change my theology, not the way that you imply.

 

[Hope of Glory]

I will say of Romans 8:29 that being conformed to the image of his Son is something that will happen to every believer in full at their glorification (v. 30) and resurrection.

Care to back the assertion that this will happen to every saved person here?

 

[npetreley]

We can choose not to be conformed to the image of of his son, even if he called us to be.

That's odd. My Bible says those he foreknew, he predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son. It doesn't say we have any choice in the matter. It says we're predestined to be conformed.

 

[johnp.]

Care to back the assertion that this will happen to every saved person here?

Php 1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

john.

 

[Brother Bob]

But why did He begin the good work?

 

[Bismarck]

God is sovereign. Nothing can happen if it goes against His will, plan, or purpose. God is never disappointed or grieved. God learns nothing from creation, all was known by Him before creation 'cause He planned it. And He never changes His mind.

Genesis 6
5YHWH saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6And YHWH was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. 7So the LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them." 8But Noah found favor in the eyes of YHWH.

God is sovereign. Nothing can happen if it goes against His will, plan, or purpose. God is never disappointed or grieved. God learns nothing from creation, all was known by Him before creation 'cause He planned it. And He never changes His mind.

Genesis 18
Abraham Intercedes for Soddom
22So the men turned from there and went toward Sodom, and YHWH stood before Abraham. 23Then Abraham drew near and said, "Will you indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city. Will you then sweep away the place and not spare it for the fifty righteous who are in it? 25Far be it from you to do such a thing, to put the righteous to death with the wicked, so that the righteous fare as the wicked! Far be that from you! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just?" 26And YHWH said, "If I find at Sodom fifty righteous in the city, I will spare the whole place for their sake."


27Abraham answered and said, "Behold, I have undertaken to speak to the Lord, I who am but dust and ashes. 28Suppose five of the fifty righteous are lacking. Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five?" And He said, "I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there."

***SCRIPTURE DOES NOT SUPPORT YOUR RIGID THEOLOGY***​

 

[Bismarck]

If someone sins, and that goes against God's will, then God is not sovereign over that person. Unless you assume that it is God's will that people sin.

If someone sins, and God did not plan for people to sin, then people are sinning outside of God's plan. Unless you assume that God intended for people to sin.

Before I go on, do you think God's sovereignty only applies to salvation?

2 Chronicles 24:18-20

18And they abandoned the house of YHWH, the God of their fathers, and served the Asherim and the idols. And wrath came upon Judah and Jerusalem for this guilt of theirs. 19Yet He sent prophets among them to bring them back to YHWH. These testified against them, but they would not pay attention.

20Then the Spirit of God clothed Zechariah the son of Jehoiada the priest, and he stood above the people, and said to them, "Thus says God, 'Why do you break the commandments of YHWH, so that you cannot prosper? Because you have forsaken YHWH, He has forsaken you.'"​

Clearly, you can "stray away from YHWH", such that prophets are required to draw you back. Mankind started off in Eden (paradise) in full communion with God, until sin cast them out. You can live (temporarily, briefly, before His Wrath destroys you) in a state of separation from God.

Clearly, you can "break" the Commandments of YHWH (!). YHWH tells you "Never shalt thou have other gods before Me" (Ex 20:3)... and yet you can "abandon" (!) YHWH and worship Asherah Maypoles if you choose.

Clearly, you can "forsake" YHWH's Commands, ie, you can "forsake YHWH's Will" for you.

God is omniscient. God foresees every possibility, and this is "recursive". That is, if you choose to X now, that will present you with a certain range of options. If you then choose to do Y, that will present you with another certain range of options. It's like a Choose Your Own Adventure Book, and YHWH knows the whole text, cover to cover. YHWH is never "surprised", you can never choose to do something YHWH didn't foresee as a possibility.

But, in that Choose Your Own Adventure, some choices are in keeping with God's Will, and some forsake it. Except in certain circumstances, where God "takes a person over", as with Pharaoh whose heart YHWH hardened (Ex 7:3) -- and God certainly has the capacity to do this -- God in His infinite wisdom generally seems to allow mankind to exercise Free Will.

Why?

"Who has known the mind of the Lord?" (Romans 11:34, 1 Corinthians 2:16).

"Can you discover the depths of God?
Can you discover the limits of the Almighty?" (Job 11:7)

But, in general, God in His infinite wisdom chooses to allow man to exercise Free Will. Thank God! Amen.

 

[webdog]

That's odd. My Bible says those he foreknew, he predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son. It doesn't say we have any choice in the matter. It says we're predestined to be conformed.

You're right. Believers don't have a choice but to be conformed into the image of His Son...were IN His Son.

 

[Bismarck]

Of course He foresaw their disobedience. He also created the serpent or devil to tempt them into doing what they did. I think God created Lucifer for His express purposes. In doing all this... He was able to do it and yet be present in the end of time. How does He do that? I don't know. It is a mystery how He is the first cause of all things, yet not the author of sin... nor does He tempt anyone. God is big enough.

How are you making a logically consistent argument?

James 1:13
Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and He himself tempts no one.​

So, God is not the author of sin.

But, if God is the author of Satan, who is the author of sin (1 Chr 21:1) through temptation, then God is the ultimate author of sin...

unless Satan has "surprised God" by doing something God never intended...

but if that is the case, and Satan lures men to follow him, then they to are doing something God never intended...

in which case their behavior is not pre-destinated = fore-ordained.

If all of creation is a simple mechanistic clock whose myriad gears all tick according to God's design, then those gears which grind against the others and cause problems (ie, sin) are doing so by God's design...

which design is then imperfect. But at the time of Creation, at the "Big Bang" as it were,

Genesis 1:31
And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.​

God's creation was good and perfect and pure, not corrupted by sin. Sin did not enter Creation until the Fall of Man in Genesis 3.

Theology must be consistent and clear. Beware of using the word "mystery":

Rev 17:5
And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.​

The reader may note that, throughout Scripture, YHWH reveals and uncovers mysteries, so that they are no longer such. That is, God opposes mysteries, as the Light opposes Darkness.

The whole point of "satan" is that "satan" rebels against God's order, God's Reich as it were. And would God predestine a rebellion against His own Creation?? For, sin serves no purpose but death, yet YHWH-God is the Everlasting God of Life.

 

[Bismarck]

You're right. Believers don't have a choice but to be conformed into the image of His Son...were IN His Son.

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,

 

[npetreley]

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,

First, the topic was being conformed to the image of His Son, not choose life or death.

Second, I wonder why it's worded that way? Why doesn't it say, "I call heaven and earth to witness on your behalf today"? You think maybe God knows they are totally depraved and can't choose life, and He's trying to teach them something? One of the best ways to teach a stubborn person he can't do something without your help is to tell him to do it on his own and let him fail.

 

[webdog]

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,

You missed what I said. I said believers don't have a choice. If you are already a believer, you WILL be conformed into the image of His Son.

 

[Andy T.]

Care to back the assertion that this will happen to every saved person here?

Phil 1:6. I Cor. 15. I John 3:2

After justification, every believer is conformed to some degree to the image of Christ. Some advance further than others in sanctification. Some advance very little. Some even regress. Some advance greatly. But none ever advance completely. But we will all be complete at our glorification and resurrection fulfilling Romans 8:29-30. No one ever advances into a distinct class of believers that are more justified than other believers. We are never more (or less) justified on our day of conversion than we are the day we enter heaven.