Preparing a truthful Calvinist sermon

[Revmitchell]

You're welcome. I realized after I typed my response that the beginning may have sounded snarky, which was not my intention. I've been around the mountain several times with savedbymercy. His idea of debate and discussion is to ignore everything you write, labeling it as rabbit trails and evasion, and demanding you answer Yes or No questions that are structured very similarly to "Answer Yes or No: Do you still beat your wife?"

You nailed it.

 

[BobRyan]

One must be saved before they can hear and believe the Gospel!

That is certainly a story you enjoy making up.



"even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing"2 Cor 4:3 -- but not all and as Paul said "IF it is hid" at all - it is hid from those who reject it "He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11


John 8 condemns those who choose to reject Christ

31To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
33They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”
34Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.b ”
39“Abraham is our father,” they answered.
“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you wouldc do what Abraham did. 40As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41You are doing the works of your own father.”

 

[BobRyan]

Bob - I'm not a Calvinist, hence my disagreement with TULIP.

I do know that - I am simply pointing out that TULIP appears to be a description of the Gospel from the Calvinist POV -- so then possibly not the right gospel.

 

[BobRyan]

I've read it, and there are a couple of fundamental flaws. Not dishonesty, or anything necessarily wrong, but flaws.

The first flaw is presuming that a Calvinist would preach that message to an unbeliever. They wouldn't that sort of teaching comes later.

Which is precisely the point. Calvinists know that for evangelism you simply cannot preach Calvinism. It does not work.

Kinda like the secrets of Freemasonry or Mormonism.

That is wayy more honesty than I was expecting.

They preach Christ crucified, then turn it around later.

Yes indeed -- wayyy more honesty.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Many on here have stated you don't understand Calvinism. You don't. I'll leave it there...

Which means nothing - if you can't address the OP.

 

[BobRyan]

Nothing I say and nothing you choose this evening will make any difference at all in the outcome,

You cannot obtain salvation by choosing something today nor can you affect your eternal doom if in fact you are forsaken of God.

You and I have no control at all over that.

Let's all just be seated for the rest of the meeting - and in silence watch to see what God is sovereignly going to do, perhaps He will cause someone to get saved as we watch.

20 minute pause ...

Dismissed.

It is a lie for a man to stand before an audience and preach that God will save those that hear him if they will believe and put their trust in Jesus Christ, if God has elected that some of them cannot respond! God is not the author of lies! !

Well... funny you should mention that...

I've read it, and there are a couple of fundamental flaws. Not dishonesty, or anything necessarily wrong, but flaws.

The first flaw is presuming that a Calvinist would preach that message to an unbeliever. They wouldn't that sort of teaching comes later. Kinda like the secrets of Freemasonry or Mormonism. They preach Christ crucified, then turn it around later. .

 

[BobRyan]

I'm not a Calvinist.

I too am not a Calvinist.

 

[OldRegular]

Which means nothing - if you can't address the OP.

Ryan

Scripture tells us the following about the Gospel:

Romans 1:16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Sadly you and many others ignore the Power of God in Salvation, instead making salvation totally dependent upon the power of the Big I

Strange! Most on this BB have no problem understanding that God Chose Israel out of all the nations and out of Israel, Judah, then David but simply cannot accept that He also chose Gentiles.

Ezekiel 20:5. And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day when I chose Israel, and lifted up mine hand unto the seed of the house of Jacob, and made myself known unto them in the land of Egypt, when I lifted up mine hand unto them, saying, I am the LORD your God;.

Psalms 78:67. Moreover he refused the tabernacle of Joseph, and chose not the tribe of Ephraim:
Psalms 78:68. But chose the tribe of Judah, the mount Zion which he loved.
Psalms 78:70. He chose David also his servant, and took him from the sheepfolds:

 

[savedbymercy]

They are already saved duh! Why tell them the gospel? Why does it matter that they believe if they are already saved? Duh!

The question is, why not tell them the Gospel of their Salvation ? That's the primary purpose for the Gospel,to tell the saved the good news of their Salvation ! Duh !

 

[plain_n_simple]

The question is, why not tell them the Gospel of their Salvation ? That's the primary purpose for the Gospel,to tell the saved the good news of their Salvation ! Duh !

Evasion, rabbit trail.

 

[savedbymercy]

Evasion, rabbit trail.

Yeah, you the one doing the evading, your questioned was answered quite reasonably, yet because of your blindness and deception, and believing a lie for perhaps many many years, you resist and evade the Truth. There is no Good News of Salvation to a Lost man or women, but to the saved ! The Gospel is hid to them that are Lost resulting in their believing not 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[PreachTony]

The question is, why not tell them the Gospel of their Salvation ? That's the primary purpose for the Gospel,to tell the saved the good news of their Salvation ! Duh !

So you're just completely ignoring the Romans scripture that says a person has to believe in order to call on God, and in order to believe they must first hear the preached word. That scripture stands in direct opposition to your theology.

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The sequence of events is quite clear:
1. A preacher must be sent to preach the word
2. The Lost need to hear the preached Word of God
3. The Lost then need to believe in Him
4. The Lost must then call upon Him
5. Believing in the heart and confessing with the mouth

Again, this is in opposition to your point of view that man is already saved before he hears the gospel. The only way your point of view works is if you ignore certain words and twist the remaining scriptures to say what you want them to say.

 

[steaver]

You show no inkling of understanding CALVINISM...I offered you several real sermons, rather than your make believe fantasy thoughts.

That's an interesting statement seeing how I used your own words about those who do not believe in TULIP and Willis' words about God hating the lost in my sermon. :laugh: ..."fantasy thoughts". I like it!!

 

[plain_n_simple]

Yeah, you the one doing the evading, your questioned was answered quite reasonably, yet because of your blindness and deception, and believing a lie for perhaps many many years, you resist and evade the Truth. There is no Good News of Salvation to a Lost man or women, but to the saved ! The Gospel is hid to them that are Lost resulting in their believing not 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Wrong answer junior.

You have no truth, your leader was a murderer, it is Calvins fruit. You conveniently avoid that continually. "You will know them by their fruit"

You have it completely backwards. Jesus came to save the lost, yet in your logic, Jesus came to save the saved.

"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not" Notice these people would of at some point been presented the gospel, then they rejected it.

For a person to "believe not" they have to hear the subject before they can reject it. Your misguided gospel says they reject before they hear.

Your gospel is like a child that rejects carrots before he ever tastes them for the first time. You mock God in doing this, painting Him as an unfair idiot.


"But if our gospel be hid"

Notice the word "if". That is a big word that defines the intention of the verse.

It does not say "our gospel is hidden to the lost" does it? No.

If it said "our gospel is hidden to the lost" all people would be excluded from hearing it because all people were lost at one time or another.

Your command of the English language is so poor I cannot even approach you with the Greek to help your "other gospel" understanding.

Then again, it isn't surprising as you believe faith is a work, another misguided understanding of basic language. It would be so refreshing if you could defend your stance as other Cals do, but even at that, they distance themselves from you.

Consider taking an online course in basic English structure and comprehension, you make yourself look very foolish in the simplest of discussions.

 

[savedbymercy]

Wrong answer junior.

You have no truth, your leader was a murderer, it is Calvins fruit. You conveniently avoid that continually. "You will know them by their fruit"

You have it completely backwards. Jesus came to save the lost, yet in your logic, Jesus came to save the saved.

"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not" Notice these people would of at some point been presented the gospel, then they rejected it.

For a person to "believe not" they have to hear the subject before they can reject it. Your misguided gospel says they reject before they hear.

Your gospel is like a child that rejects carrots before he ever tastes them for the first time. You mock God in doing this, painting Him as an unfair idiot.


"But if our gospel be hid"

Notice the word "if". That is a big word that defines the intention of the verse.

It does not say "our gospel is hidden to the lost" does it? No.

If it said "our gospel is hidden to the lost" all people would be excluded from hearing it because all people were lost at one time or another.

Your command of the English language is so poor I cannot even approach you with the Greek to help your "other gospel" understanding.

Then again, it isn't surprising as you believe faith is a work, another misguided understanding of basic language. It would be so refreshing if you could defend your stance as other Cals do, but even at that, they distance themselves from you.

Consider taking an online course in basic English structure and comprehension, you make yourself look very foolish in the simplest of discussions.

The Gospel is hid to them that are lost and they believe it not 2 Cor 4:3-4 that word hid also that knowledge is being withheld, hence you can not believe that which you don't know !

 

[plain_n_simple]

The Gospel is hid to them that are lost and they believe it not 2 Cor 4:3-4 that word hid also that knowledge is being withheld, hence you can not believe that which you don't know !

The fruit of your Lord Calvin is evident.

 

[PreachTony]

The Gospel is hid to them that are lost and they believe it not 2 Cor 4:3-4 that word hid also that knowledge is being withheld, hence you can not believe that which you don't know !

Still ignoring the word IF, I see...

 

[savedbymercy]

The fruit of your Lord Calvin is evident.

So now we have insults because you reject the Truth. If you dont believe the Truths of TULIP what they scripturally represent, you are in unbelief and dont believe the Gospel !

 

[savedbymercy]

That word hid in 2 Cor 4:3 also means veiled, the Gospel is veild and that permanently to them that are Lost ! So they will never believe it !

 

[PreachTony]

If you dont believe the Truths of TULIP what they scripturally represent, you are in unbelief and dont believe the Gospel !

I just love it when you so completely own your doctrine. In your eyes, multitudes of Christians who have perfectly explained professions of faith and experiences of grace are actually in unbelief and don't believe the gospel, simply because they don't believe TULIP.

That word hid in 2 Cor 4:3 also means veiled, the Gospel is veild and that permanently to them that are Lost ! So they will never believe it !

I guess I'm still struggling with figuring out where you are pulling the notion of permanent hiding of the gospel, as it is not in the verse you continually misquote. We've explained on many, many occasions that ignoring the word IF in that scripture completely changes the meaning. Instead of discussing the implications of this changed definition, you have simply dug in your heels and doubled-down on your doctrine.