Preparing a truthful Calvinist sermon

[steaver]

Belief in TULIP/Calvinism does not make you one of God's elect. In fact your statement is contrary to TULIP which you say you have debated. You make election conditional on your belief in TULIP/Calvinism but election is unconditional, the U in TULIP!

Someone else may have already pointed this out. If so my apologies to them!

Not sure I follow, so you are saying that TULIP does not teach that a person is saved through belief of the Gospel??? How then are they saved??? through unbelief???

 

[OldRegular]

Not sure I follow, so you are saying that TULIP does not teach that a person is saved through belief of the Gospel??? How then are they saved??? through unbelief???

Did I mention belief or the Gospel. I will remind you what you said in the OP!

WARNING!!!! THIS IS A PROVOCATIVE OP MEANT TO SPARK DEBATE AND SHED LIGHT ON JUST WHAT IS THE TRUTH CONCERNING CALVINISM. PLEASE CONTINUE READING WITHOUT LETTING IT PROVOKE YOU TO ANGER. IT IS MEAN'T TO ESTABLISH WHAT TEACHINGS CALVINIST ARE TRULY SUPPORTING WITHIN THE CAMP.

Greetings All,

I have decided to prepare my first evangelical sermon for when and if the Lord and Creator Jesus Christ happens to make me one of His sheep, saving me.

I have spent quite a bit of time debating TULIP/Calvinism with those here who have been given Divine Enablement to believe and be saved by Calvinism, so I am getting ready just in case I find out one day that I am one of God's elect through belief in TULIP/Calvinism.



So far so good? Calvinist feel free to critique. These are the beliefs that have been expressed to me by Calvinist in my debate threads. I haven't seen any Calvinist rebuke these beliefs, so I have to assume they are well within the camp of Calvinist believers.

Did you mention belief in the Gospel? No! You mentioned belief in TULIP/Calvinism!

Now PLEASE read carefully your OP and what I posted! If you still have a problem I will try to help.

Belief in TULIP/Calvinism does not make you one of God's elect. In fact your statement is contrary to TULIP which you say you have debated. You make election conditional on your belief in TULIP/Calvinism but election is unconditional, the U in TULIP!

Someone else may have already pointed this out. If so my apologies to them!

 

[steaver]

Did I mention belief or the Gospel. I will remind you what you said in the OP!

Did you mention belief in the Gospel? No! You mentioned belief in TULIP/Calvinism!

Now PLEASE read carefully your OP and what I posted! If you still have a problem I will try to help.

Not sure you read the sermon so here it is with bolded emphasis....Now you PLEASE read carefully :smilewinkgrin:

Good evening everyone! So glad you all are here tonight. I will begin by telling you this, you are not here tonight by chance or any choosing of your own to come. No, God has caused you to be here tonight to hear His message which I will deliver to you tonight straight from the very word of God!

Let's begin in Matthew chapter 7 verses 13&14. "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

There are a few of you here tonight whom God is going to cause to believe the Gospel, which is also called Calvinism or TULIP. However, I must be totally honest, most here will not be able to believe because God will not cause you to believe but will let you remain in your condemned condition.

You see, the way God is portrayed in the bible is One who chooses according to His good will and pleasure, loves some and hates the rest, has mercy on some and hardens the others, calls some and leaves the rest in their fallen state.

A few of you here tonight are loved by God, you will know who you are because you will believe in TULIP/Calvinism/Gospel. But those of you here tonight who cannot believe this are hated by God, God is passing you bye, you were created just for the purpose of showing God's wrath, that He may destroy you in the lake of fire to exist in torture for ever and ever, never to escape.

Now even some of you out here who think you are "believers" may protest. You may say, "well I'm a believer on Jesus Christ and a child of God, but I do not believe in TULIP/Calvinism. With TULIP being so blatant and clearly being expressed in the scriptures as you claim, could we conclude the Holy Spirit is failing to teach this truth to the children of God then?"

No.....Jesus declared that the sheep will hear His voice, others who do not, are not His sheep...that is why they do not hear;
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

In closing let me congratulate those here who God has caused to believe the Gospel/TULIP. God loves you very much and has forgiven all your sin through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. And for those here tonight who do not believe, you deserve the eternal hell God is going to send you to because you refuse to believe and God hates you. I offer no condolences, for what God hates I must hate, and whom God hates I must hate also, for I am called to be holy as my Father in heaven is holy.

 

[savedbymercy]

or

Did you mention belief in the Gospel? No! You mentioned belief in TULIP/Calvinism!

The Truths of TULIP, what each of those points teach from the scripture sets forth the Gospel of God's Grace, so much so, if you reject the Truths of TULIP you are rejecting the Truths that are Representative of The Gospel of the Grace of God, you can dismiss it as calvinism all you like, you are still being dismissive of the Gospel ! Acts 20:24

24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

Now if you reject the Total inability of the natural man spiritually to do anything good towards God in a spiritual sense, you dont believe the Gospel of God's Grace !

If you reject Unconditional Election of Grace of some of mankind, you reject the Gospel of God's Grace !

If you dont believe in the Limited and Particular Atoning Death of Christ only for His Church the Sheep, you reject the Gospel of God's Grace !

If you dont believe in the Sovereign effectual Call of the Spirit unto the Elect only, you reject the Gospel of God's Grace !

If you dont believe in the Preserving Power of God unto the end of all for whom Christ died, you reject the Gospel of God's Grace. All these Truths are Taught in scripture, if you dont believe just one of them, you dont believe the Gospel of God's Grace, I dont care how you dismiss it as only calvinism, that goes for you and anyone else reading these words !

 

[steaver]

or



The Truths of TULIP, what each of those points teach from the scripture sets forth the Gospel of God's Grace, so much so, if you reject the Truths of TULIP you are rejecting the Truths that are Representative of The Gospel of the Grace of God, you can dismiss it as calvinism all you like, you are still being dismissive of the Gospel ! Acts 20:24

24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

Now if you reject the Total inability of the natural man spiritually to do anything good towards God in a spiritual sense, you dont believe the Gospel of God's Grace !

If you reject Unconditional Election of Grace of some of mankind, you reject the Gospel of God's Grace !

If you dont believe in the Limited and Particular Atoning Death of Christ only for His Church the Sheep, you reject the Gospel of God's Grace !

If you dont believe in the Sovereign effectual Call of the Spirit unto the Elect only, you reject the Gospel of God's Grace !

If you dont believe in the Preserving Power of God unto the end of all for whom Christ died, you reject the Gospel of God's Grace. All these Truths are Taught in scripture, if you dont believe just one of them, you dont believe the Gospel of God's Grace, I dont care how you dismiss it as only calvinism, that goes for you and anyone else reading these words !

Thank you for your honesty. I believe that being a Calvinist, one would have no choice but to conclude the same as you do. Do you also conclude as the OP sermon concludes, that without this belief, one cannot be saved? Or do you believe one can believe on Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour yet still reject TULIP? In other words, is rejecting TULIP rejecting Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour? Or are these two separate issues?

 

[BobRyan]

If you reject Unconditional Election of Grace of some of mankind, you reject the Gospel of God's Grace !

If you dont believe in the Limited and Particular Atoning Death of Christ only for His Church the Sheep, you reject the Gospel of God's Grace !

!

If we don't believe in that - it is because we believe the Bible "instead"

Instead of "limited Gospel" we have an unlimited atoning sacrifice "For OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE World" 1 John 2

[FONT=&quot]
“God sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD” 1John 4:14[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Acts 17[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]24 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands;[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’ 29 Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. 30 Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 Tim 2[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 Pet 3[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 John 2[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Jesus Christ “is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD” [/FONT]

 

[BobRyan]

The "tiny gospel" model where God's gospel goes only to the "FEW" of Matt 7

If you reject Unconditional Election of Grace of some of mankind, you reject the Gospel of God's Grace !

If you dont believe in the Limited and Particular Atoning Death of Christ only for His Church the Sheep, you reject the Gospel of God's Grace !

!

You don't understand the Bible doctrine on Atoning Sacrifice 1John 2:2.


Only in the LARGE Gospel model is there room for God's Lament.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan


[FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Response: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Well the Calvinist would have an answer for God's question on that one. An answer contrived via “extreme inference” in places like Deut 5:29. Calvinism would inform the world – and God Himself of just what God did to cause the lamentable result that God is complaining about in t[FONT=&quot]he verse above[/FONT].

[FONT=&quot]I[FONT=&quot]n Calvinism i[/FONT][/FONT]f the result is wrong if it is to be lamented if the question [FONT=&quot]is to be asked "What more could have been done" w[FONT=&quot]ell [/FONT][/FONT]then Calvinism argues He [FONT=&quot]knows exactly what He failed to do [/FONT] - [FONT=&quot]in effect [/FONT] sabotaging His own plans - the cause of His own "lament" - or at the very least - being forgetful to "do the necessary" as the saying goes in India.

[FONT=&quot]================================

[FONT=&quot]God's "lament" does not ask "what more could the LOST have done that they have not done" because He knows[FONT=&quot] exactly wh[FONT=&quot]at THEY could h[FONT=&quot]av[FONT=&quot]e [FONT=&quot]done.

[FONT=&quot]Rather [FONT=&quot]G[FONT=&quot]od asks[FONT=&quot] 'What MOR[FONT=&quot]E could I HAVE done that I did not do?" -- the very ques[FONT=&quot]tion [FONT=&quot]all Calvinists claim to have the answer for.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

=======================

 

[savedbymercy]

The Truths of Tulip, represent nothing but the Gospel of God's Grace in Christ ! Rejecting them is rejected what scripture reveals !

 

[steaver]

The Truths of Tulip, represent nothing but the Gospel of God's Grace in Christ ! Rejecting them is rejected what scripture reveals !

I understand your position and agree that as a Calvinist this is the position one must ultimately conclude. But what about my questions.....

Do you also conclude as the OP sermon concludes, that without this belief, one cannot be saved? Or do you believe one can believe on Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour yet still reject TULIP? In other words, is rejecting TULIP rejecting Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour? Or are these two separate issues?

 

[savedbymercy]

It's foolish and false to proclaim that all without exception have had their sins atoned for and God propitated on their behalf when many are condemned already John 3:18 and under God's wrath John 3:36 !

 

[BobRyan]

The Truths of Tulip, represent nothing but the Gospel of God's Grace in Christ ! Rejecting them is rejected what scripture reveals !

That is a consistent and logical Calvinist response.

 

[BobRyan]

It's foolish and false to proclaim that all without exception have had their sins atoned for and God propitated on their behalf when many are condemned already John 3:18 and under God's wrath John 3:36 !

Until you understand the Bible definition of "Atoning Sacrifice" -

If you get that wrong -- everything else is nonsense and self-conflicted.

It is a key issue at the core of the difference between Calvinism and the Bible.

Once you get that right you will understand how it is that God can have unlimited atoning Sacrifice AND a true limited Atonement. #67

Let your eyes be open to Bible truth - notice how that entire mountain of Bible problems you face vanish once this simple Bible doctrine is accepted rather than the man-made tradition of Calvinism.

 

[savedbymercy]

Until you understand the Bible definition of "Atoning Sacrifice" -

If you get that wrong -- everything else is nonsense and self-conflicted.

It is a key issue at the core of the difference between Calvinism and the Bible.

Once you get that right you will understand how it is that God can have unlimited atoning Sacrifice AND a true limited Atonement. #67

Let your eyes be open to Bible truth - notice how that entire mountain of Bible problems you face vanish once this simple Bible doctrine is accepted rather than the man-made tradition of Calvinism.

It's inconsistent to say all without exception have had their sins propitated by Christ 1 John 2:2 and yet they are under God's wrath at the same time Jn 3:36 !

 

[BobRyan]

Until you read the actual Bible on that subject.

Until you understand the Bible definition of "Atoning Sacrifice" -

If you get that wrong -- everything else is nonsense and self-conflicted.

It is a key issue at the core of the difference between Calvinism and the Bible.

Once you get that right you will understand how it is that God can have unlimited atoning Sacrifice AND a true limited Atonement. #67

Let your eyes be open to Bible truth - notice how that entire mountain of Bible problems you face vanish once this simple Bible doctrine is accepted rather than the man-made tradition of Calvinism.

 

[savedbymercy]

Until you read the actual Bible on that subject.

[quote name="BobRyan" post=2182941]Until you understand the Bible definition of "Atoning Sacrifice" - <br />
<br />
If you get that wrong -- everything else is nonsense and self-conflicted. <br />
<br />
It is a key issue at the core of the difference between Calvinism and the Bible.<br />
<br />
Once you get that right you will understand how it is that God can have unlimited atoning Sacrifice AND a true limited Atonement. #<b>67</b><br />
<br />
Let your eyes be open to Bible truth - notice how that entire mountain of Bible problems you face vanish once this simple Bible doctrine is accepted rather than the man-made tradition of Calvinism.[/QUOTE]

It's inconsistent to say all without exception have had their sins propitated by Christ 1 John 2:2 and yet they are under God's wrath at the same time Jn 3:36 !<br/>

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan Until you understand the Bible definition of "Atoning Sacrifice" -

If you get that wrong -- everything else is nonsense and self-conflicted.

It is a key issue at the core of the difference between Calvinism and the Bible.

Once you get that right you will understand how it is that God can have unlimited atoning Sacrifice AND a true limited Atonement. #67

Let your eyes be open to Bible truth - notice how that entire mountain of Bible problems you face vanish once this simple Bible doctrine is accepted rather than the man-made tradition of [

It's inconsistent to say all without exception have had their sins propitated by Christ 1 John 2:2

Until you understand that this is in fact the "Atoning Sacrifice" of "the Day of Atonement" - as we see in Lev 16. And that the entire process of "Atonement" as GOD describes it - includes BOTH Christ's work as our "Atoning Sacrifice" AND Christ's work as our High Priest.

The very thing Calvinism fears - because it allows for an UNLIMITED Atoning Sacrifice at the cross - with a LIMITED Atonement result for just the saved -- which is Arminian doctrine not Calvinist.

Thus the lost are under judgment and condemnation until they accept God's Gospel solution.

WERE you a child of wrath as Paul said HE was at one time??

[FONT=&quot]Eph 2[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Were you "by nature a child of wrath" before you were saved in real life? on this actual earth? or is Paul simply "wrong"??

[/FONT]


in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

At this point you should "notice" that at every turn the Bible proclaims the Arminian Gospel solution -- especially when it comes to Atonement.j

Why continue your constant uphill battle against the scripture to defend the man-made traditions of Calvinism only to discover time after time the very point where you thought Calvinism would stand - is where it falls.

All your problems with the bible would vanish if you would just accept the Bible model of free will.

 

[steaver]

At this point you should "notice" that at every turn the Bible proclaims the Arminian Gospel solution -- especially when it comes to Atonement.j

Why continue your constant uphill battle against the scripture to defend the man-made traditions of Calvinism only to discover time after time the very point where you thought Calvinism would stand - is where it falls.

All your problems with the bible would vanish if you would just accept the Bible model of free will.

I have not had the time to put together an exposition on it yet, but I would assume Calvinist would agree that the Passover of the OT is a revelation of the Passover which was to come through Jesus Christ.

The Hebrews were given an instruction by God to save them from the angel of death, sacrifice a lamb and APPLY the blood over the door of the home.

Why did they have to APPLY the blood of the lamb?? Why couldn't they just sit passively and have God save them?? What if they would not apply the blood? Would God still have saved them??

No, they had to BELIEVE God which meant DO what God instructed them to DO, which was APPLY the blood of the Lamb. How do we APPLY the blood of the Lamb Jesus Christ today? Romans 10 gives us the answer...call upon the name of the Lord.

 

[OldRegular]

Not sure you read the sermon so here it is with bolded emphasis....Now you PLEASE read carefully :smilewinkgrin:

I did not read the sermon, assumed it was from a source, but have no intention of reading it I read your introductory comments and I commented on your introductory comments!

 

[savedbymercy]

Until you understand that this is in fact the "Atoning Sacrifice" of "the Day of Atonement" - as we see in Lev 16. And that the entire process of "Atonement" as GOD describes it - includes BOTH Christ's work as our "Atoning Sacrifice" AND Christ's work as our High Priest.

The very thing Calvinism fears - because it allows for an UNLIMITED Atoning Sacrifice at the cross - with a LIMITED Atonement result for just the saved -- which is Arminian doctrine not Calvinist.

Thus the lost are under judgment and condemnation until they accept God's Gospel solution.

WERE you a child of wrath as Paul said HE was at one time??

[FONT=&quot]Eph 2[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Were you "by nature a child of wrath" before you were saved in real life? on this actual earth? or is Paul simply "wrong"??

[/FONT]


in Christ,

Bob

It's inconsistent to say all without exception have had their sins propitated by Christ 1 John 2:2 When many are under God's Wrath Jn 3:36

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

God has no wrath against them in 1 Jn 2:2 because His Wrath has been appeased by Christ !