Preterism - True Or false?

[robycop3]

I recollect he has spent a lot of time over on the Versions/Translations Forum with JoJ, and I'm pretty sure his dispyism is in the same vein as JoJ's, so, no, God's Word is not enough:

Apocalyptic as literary genre and interpreting Revelation

FYI, I believe in three dispies: the Old Covenant, New Covenat, & the world to come.

 

[kyredneck]

DNA results

Israel as a Nation and God's Plan

 

[robycop3]

I see so many men have answered you so well, I'll not continue. I guess I'm a 'Johnny come lately' here. I will say, and I don't mean this in a nasty way. I've spent time debating a couple of WatchTower men lately. Sadly, I find most Dispensationalists argue in the same manner as the JWs. Maybe it is just common among the heresies and cults that popped up in the 19th century.

Another goof made by preterists is labeling all who don't believe their hooey as "dispies". FYI, I believe in three dispies: the Old Covenany, New Covenant, & the world to come.

 

[Yeshua1]

Another goof made by preterists is labeling all who don't believe their hooey as "dispies". FYI, I believe in three dispies: the Old Covenany, New Covenant, & the world to come.

IF Jesus actuallu already has His second coming, then either this is the eternal final state, or else we are right now in the 1000 yr reign of Christ. Neither options would fir the scriptures, for there is still a lot of sinning and disobedience still going on!

 

[robycop3]

I tend to the view that God's dealings with Israel as a nation ended with the destruction. They were declared "uncircumcised" by Stephen speaking in the power of the Holy Spirit, & the Gospel was soon after opened to uncircumcised Gentiles, both events at the conclusion of the 70 weeks.

According to Paul the wrath of God on them was to the uttermost. 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 Whatever those calling themselves Jews, & maintaining a form of the religion did after that was of no concern to God, apart from welcoming them by the Gospel on an individual basis.

Persecution of Jews by the churches is utterly abhorrent & totally contrary to the Gospel, as is the genocide being practised by the nation calling itself 'Israel' against the Palestinians.

Family records were destroyed in the destruction & there are serious doubts about whether the Ashkenazi Jews of Northern Europe are Semitic, descendants of Abraham. Genesis 10:2-3

I see you buy into "replacement theology" and anti-semitism as well as preterism. And you call yourself a Baptist! WOW!

So, you'd disregard the prophecy of the 144K witnesses during the great trib & the "beast's" rule, 12K from each tribe of Israel? And the 12 gates of the New Jerusalem each bearing the name of a tribe of Israel?

And I suppose you believe modern Judah (Israel) rose on its own, just by happenstance? Or, they made Jerusalem its capital by their own power, against all human odds, in nthe face of the opposition of a billion Muslims?

I suggest you chuck all your man-made doctrines & spend at least part of each day reading your bible while praying for the HOLY SPIRIT to guide & teach you! If a doctrine of faith & worship isn't found in your Bible, DON'T BELIEVE IT!

 

[Yeshua1]

I see you buy into "replacement theology" and anti-semitism as well as preterism. And you call yourself a Baptist! WOW!

So, you'd disregard the prophecy of the 144K witnesses during the great trib & the "beast's" rule, 12K from each tribe of Israel? And the 12 gates of the New Jerusalem each bearing the name of a tribe of Israel?

And I suppose you believe modern Judah (Israel) rose on its own, just by happenstance? Or, they made Jerusalem its capital by their own power, against all human odds, in nthe face of the opposition of a billion Muslims?

I suggest you chuck all your man-made doctrines & spend at least part of each day reading your bible while praying for the HOLY SPIRIT to guide & teach you! If a doctrine of faith & worship isn't found in your Bible, DON'T BELIEVE IT!

God promise to israel to have their King reign over her will happen at His second coming.

 

[robycop3]

I haven't put much thought into this but I understand where you're coming from. But compare these passages with the Jewish Virtual Library article of their emancipation I linked:

64 And Jehovah will scatter thee among all peoples, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou nor thy fathers, even wood and stone.
65 And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, and there shall be no rest for the sole of thy foot: but Jehovah will give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and pining of soul; Dt 28

For some reason the Jews consider themselves as having been emancipated from a very long period of bondage. Why is that?

Because they WERE. The history of the Jews after Hadrian exiled them should be quite familiar. They were persecuted, hounded, abused, with many being killed, wherever they went. This culminated in the nazi holocaust. Now, did they arise from the dust on their own, fighting a war with, and beating their Arab neighbors in 1948?

 

[robycop3]

I agree with you - the idea that God has in effect been punishing the Jews for the last 2,000 years - 60 generations, until Jesus returns, is utterly repugnant. Likewise church persecution of Jews.

We tend to forget that many thousands of Jews responding to the Gospel during the Acts period, and these Jews formed the Church. Within a generation of so the unity of Jew & Gentile in Christ would have resulted in intermarriage, & no continuation of "Messianic Jews."

Sorry, Sir, but the persecution of the Jews from 136 AD to late 1945 is a matter of well-documented history.

 

[robycop3]

I've got your back RC3 - glad you call their doctrine "phony" not the people themselves.

Acts 1:11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."

Revelation 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

HankD

Thanx, Hank. preterism is a man-made false doctrine, made by tampering with God's word by inventing new meanings for some of it, & no Baptist should believe one quark of it.

 

[Hermeneut7]

God promise to israel to have their King reign over her will happen at His second coming.

Again, mankind contradicts God. The promise you refers to the following in the 1st century:

“Fellow Israelites, I may say to you confidently of our ancestor David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Since he was a prophet, he knew that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would put one of his descendants on his throne. Foreseeing this, David spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, saying, ‘He was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh experience corruption.’ This Jesus God raised up, and of that all of us are witnesses. Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you both see and hear. For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”’ (Acts 2:29-35, NRSV)

I'll believe the Holy Spirit inspired Apostle Peter rather than the modern concoctions of men.

 

[Hermeneut7]

My 'partial preterism - fulfillment theology' I follow is based on, in Matt. 24, having 3 questions asked of the Lord Jesus.

How you can keep switching your 'literal interpretation' to include the book of Revelation is beyond me.

The Lord Jesus obviously answered all 3.

One was near future, one was distant future, and his return was the end future.

I don't see a conflict with 'fulfillment theology' and what Jesus himself said - literally.

If I am following you correctly, I agree, Jesus indeed answered the "when" and it seems that just knowing English is enough to clarify this:

Merriam-Webster:
"this .. the person, thing, or idea that is present or near in place, time, or thought or that has just been mentioned"

Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. (Matt 24:34, NRSV)

Merriam-Webster
"that .. the one farther away or less immediately under observation or discussion"

"for forty years. Therefore I was angry with that generation, and I said, ‘They always go astray in their hearts, and they have not known my ways.’" (Heb 3:10, NRSV)

"This generation" clearly refers to those to whom He was speaking, Mt.24:34. "That generation" refers to those many centuries farther away, Heb.3:10.

No way can I read Matthew's use of "generation" and understand anything but people in a certain time frame, contemporaries and the first use in Matthew 1:17 sets the meaning right at the start. To say this means "race" or "kind" as Matthew uses it is absurd.

 

[HankD]

If I am following you correctly, I agree, Jesus indeed answered the "when" and it seems that just knowing English is enough to clarify this:

Merriam-Webster:
"this .. the person, thing, or idea that is present or near in place, time, or thought or that has just been mentioned"

Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. (Matt 24:34, NRSV)

Merriam-Webster
"that .. the one farther away or less immediately under observation or discussion"

"for forty years. Therefore I was angry with that generation, and I said, ‘They always go astray in their hearts, and they have not known my ways.’" (Heb 3:10, NRSV)

"This generation" clearly refers to those to whom He was speaking, Mt.24:34. "That generation" refers to those many centuries farther away, Heb.3:10.

No way can I read Matthew's use of "generation" and understand anything but people in a certain time frame, contemporaries and the first use in Matthew 1:17 sets the meaning right at the start. To say this means "race" or "kind" as Matthew uses it is absurd.

Yes, but then you (generic) have a problem with:

Acts 1:11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."

Revelation 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

Futurists find the redefining of all the apparent literal words in the passages above as being assigned "spiritual" or metaphorical meanings "absurd" as "this generation" being given a far reaching definition.

Then comes the scripture ping-pong game.
Then the casting of each other into the lake of fire.

HankD

 

[Covenanter]

Let's start with Zechariah 9 -
We all rejoice in the perfect, literal fulfilment in Zechariah 9:9
Read on to see the context, & the results of that glorious entry into Jerusalem, then explain LITERALLY, EXACTLY AS WRITTEN.

Fron V9 onward, the fulfillment is yet future, as is obvious. Who's to say it won't be literal?

There is no difficulty seeing verses 9-12 as being fulfilled by the saving work of Christ, 13-15 are figurative indicating a conquest, logically the conquest of the Gospel seen in Acts, while 16-17 relate to our salvation as the precious jewels in his crown. Fulfilling Exodus 19:5-6 as taught by Peter - 1 Peter 2:9-10 & Malachi 3:16-18

I don't agree with your cutting up the prophecy like that - a verse fulfilled & the next verse distant future & back again - playing "ducks & drakes" with Holy Scripture. As you do with the Olivet prophecy that Jesus declared would be fulfilled before the passing of this generation.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

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[HankD]

There is no difficulty seeing verses 9-12 as being fulfilled by the saving work of Christ, 13-15 are figurative indicating a conquest, logically the conquest of the Gospel seen in Acts, while 16-17 relate to our salvation as the precious jewels in his crown. Fulfilling Exodus 19:5-6 as taught by Peter - 1 Peter 2:9-10 & Malachi 3:16-18

I don't agree with your cutting up the prophecy like that - a verse fulfilled & the next verse distant future & back again - playing "ducks & drakes" with Holy Scripture. As you do with the Olivet prophecy that Jesus declared would be fulfilled before the passing of this generation.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison

Do you accept the thousand years as a literal 1000 years?

HankD

 

[Squire Robertsson]

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