Preterism - True Or false?

[robycop3]

It's the same old rhetoric. You say prophecy has been fulfilled, yet we can't see it - we say prophecy has been fulfilled, yet you can't see it.

It would be hard for history to have missed such an event as a meteor crashing into an ocean and killing all life in the seas. Or, a rain of rocks. The lack of proof is pretty obvious.

It seems endless. Yet I still see scripture saying 'fulfillment theology' rather than 'futurist theology'. Putting the 'god' Judaism or the 'gods' Jews in control of Christianity and its future is just wrong. The scriptures say that there is NO difference between Jew and Gentile, bond or free - we that are saved are all one big family with the same future - a new Heaven and a new Earth. All equal! All receive the same eternal life! ALL!

Nothing to do with preterism.

So the reason we disagree pivots on who we worship - the God and Creator Jesus Christ, the fullness of the Godhead in human form - or the lost nation we call the Jews.

That's how I see it.

When you put it in perspective, that's what it boils down to.

And none of the Apostle's or the Lord Jesus said anything like futurist theology.

No one here worships the Jews! We worship ONE Jew - who, as a man, was called Yeshua Christos, or Jesus Christ, in English.

 

[robycop3]

I think you need to read up on partial preterism. Respectfully speaking, I do not believe you understand it.

I've read extensively on both branches of preterism. And both are false, unless one includes the destruction of Jerusalem & the temple, persecution of Christians, war & rumor of war, etc., events everyone knows have occurred or are now occurring, as part of partial preterist doctrine.

But the partial pret doctrine generally includes ALL prophesied events except the return of Jesus. However, JESUS HIMSELF proved this view false with these words:

matthew 24:29 “IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

There's NO controversy nor alternate meanings for the Greek rendered "immediately after" in V29. It is what it is. So, knowing Jesus' words are always 100% right, we see the great trib hasn't happened yet. same for the events that will immediately precede the trib.

Thus, partial pret is as false as full pret.

 

[Genevanpreacher]

Well you hold to a form of futurism. If Christ is to return at the end of time for resurrection and judgement then that is still a future event.

Yes down through the ages many many futurist theories have come forth. Personally I am a chialist (at very least).

Also IMO there will be Jacob's Trouble.

HankD

Another false teaching - there is no doctrine of a "Jacobs Trouble".

The term is one time in scripture - and it gives no teaching like men of god claim.

Yes men of god - not men of God.

And yes it is all about the Jews in Futurist teaching. They are the modern churches idol.

Blend all Gods children together like the scriptures teach and you will be 'fulfilled theology'.

 

[asterisktom]

You keep writing about literal fulfillment and then fault us Prets for not being able to provide them. It doesn't seem to faze you that these prophecies were written in apocryphal language. Symbols and metaphors. Consider, for instance, how Peter in Acts 2 showed that "cosmological disturbances" had already happened 50 days earlier.

The elements dissolving are the basic elements STOICHEIA of the Jewish dispensation. Look up how STOICHEIA is used elsewhere.

Don't keep presenting the lack of physical proofs as having any relevance against the Preterist position. Our proofs are not of that nature. This does not make them false. Our faith is based on things unseen. That last sentence should bring a half a dozen passages to mind.

 

[HankD]

Another false teaching - there is no doctrine of a "Jacobs Trouble".

The term is one time in scripture - and it gives no teaching like men of god claim.

How many times do you want it to be present?

The term "Trinity" does not appear once in the bible.

Are you a believer in the Trinity?

Yes men of god - not men of God.

And yes it is all about the Jews in Futurist teaching. They are the modern churches idol.

Blend all Gods children together like the scriptures teach and you will be 'fulfilled theology'.

I would say thanks for your opinion but no thanks.

Believe what you will, that is your right.

HankD

 

[robycop3]

You keep writing about literal fulfillment and then fault us Prets for not being able to provide them.

And I will CONTINUE to do so. Without it, preterism has no truth.

It doesn't seem to faze you that these prophecies were written in apocryphal language. Symbols and metaphors. Consider, for instance, how Peter in Acts 2 showed that "cosmological disturbances" had already happened 50 days earlier.

"Symbolic/figurative language" is the main excuse used by prets to try to make up for their lack of **PROOF** for their pronouncements. However, that excuse melts in the face of the LITERAL fulfillment of other biblical prophecies, including parts of Jesus' Olivet Discourse - not to mention the over-100 Old testament prophecies about Jesus' first coming, life, death, & resurrection that came to pass LITERALLY, EXACTLY AS WRITTEN. There's simply NO valid reason to believe the rest of the prophecies won't be fulfilled LITERALLY, TO THE LETTER.

The elements dissolving are the basic elements STOICHEIA of the Jewish dispensation. Look up how STOICHEIA is used elsewhere.

It pertains to elemental things, basics. Nothing to do with the false preterist doctrine.

Don't keep presenting the lack of physical proofs as having any relevance against the Preterist position.

Why not? Such proofs are the stoicheion of the preterist doctrine. Without them, it's FALSE.

Our proofs are not of that nature. This does not make them false. Our faith is based on things unseen. That last sentence should bring a half a dozen passages to mind.

Why are they unseen? Because THEY HAVEN'T YET HAPPENED!

What you call "faith" is actually CONJECTURE & GUESSWORK, based upon NOTHINGNESS.

God does NOT expect us to believe by "blind faith". He says the proof of His existence & power is in the creation. easy to see this, as everything that exists calls for a CREATOR.

Now, can you show us just one prophecy made by Jesus that's already been fulfilled, that wasn't fulfilled LITERALLY, TO THE LETTER?

 

[Hermeneut7]

There's no valid reason to not believe Scripture LITERALLY AS POSSIBLE. Sure, there's some symbolism in Scripture, but those symbols always stand for something real. And many of them are explained by other verses of Scripture, while the meanings of the others can be discerned with our overview of all Scripture.

Partial preterism ignores these words of Jesus: Matt. 24:29[i\ “Immediately after the tribulation[/i] of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. "

So we see that Jesus will return immediately after the great trib. Now, if the trib was in 70 AD, He is long-overdue!

As for Matt. 24:34, we must look at the various meanings of "genea", rendered 'generation' in that verse. Besides meaning the body of all mankind living in a given time, it can also mean an age or a nation or people. (We might get a little help on this from the readers of Koine Greek on this site.) And it's quite-obvious that Jesus' use of that word is in a sense other than referring to the people living at the time He uttered that prophecy. Remember, Jesus' prophecies will be fulfilled to the letter of how they were originally written and preserved. And it's just-as-obvious He has NOT yet returned in the manner HE HIMSELF described - in great power and glory, SEEN BY ALL, even those who pierced Him.

Also, remember that over a hundred Old testament prophecies about Jesus' first coming were LITERALLY fulfilled TO THE LETTER. Thus, there's no valid reason to believe the rest of His prophecies won'y be fulfilled just-as-exactly, just-as-literally!

Preterists try to fill in the gaps between their pronouncements and history/reality by reducing "inconvenient" Scriptures to "figurative/symbolic" status, but that's tampering with God's word by inventing new meanings for it - in other words, it's EISEGESIS, that is, reading man-made meanings into Scripture. I have but one conclusion to draw about preterism, full or partial -

"PRETERISM - PHONY AS A FORD CORVETTE!"

TRY READING TRUE GREEK EXPERTS, OTHER TRANSLATIONS AND BAPTISTS OF THE PAST!

The BDAG Greek-English Lexicon

"...the sum total of those born at the same time, expanded to include all those living at a given time and freq. defined in terms of specific characteristics, generation, contemporaries (Hom. et al.; BGU 1211, 12 [II B.C.] ἕως γενεῶν τριῶν); Jesus looks upon the whole contemp. generation of Israel as a uniform mass confronting him ἡ γ. αὕτη (cp. Gen 7:1; Ps 11:8) Mt 11:16; 12:41f; 23:36; 24:34; Mk 13:30..."

The AMGL Greek-English Lexicon

"...of all the people of a given period: Mat 24:34, Mar 13:30, Luk 21:32..."

The Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon

"...the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Mt.xxiv.34; Mk.xiii.30;... Lk.xxi.32..."

"Truly I tell you: the present generation will live to see it all." (Matt 24:34, REB)

"I tell you in solemn truth that the present generation will certainly not pass away without all these things having first taken place." (Matt 24:34, Weymouth - Baptist)

"I solemnly say to you, the present age will not pass away before all this takes place. (Matt.24:34, Williams - Baptist)

The Baptist Charles H. Spurgeon

Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass,.... Not the generation of men in general; as if the sense was, that mankind should not cease, until the accomplishment of these things; nor the generation, or people of the Jews, who should continue to be a people, until all were fulfilled; nor the generation of Christians; as if the meaning was, that there should be always a set of Christians, or believers in Christ in the world, until all these events came to pass; but it respects that present age, or generation of men then living in it; and the sense is, that all the men of that age should not die, but some should live

till all these things were fulfilled; see Matthew 16:28 as many did, and as there is reason to believe they might, and must, since all these things had their accomplishment, in and about forty years after this: and certain it is, that John, one of the disciples of Christ, outlived the time by many years; and, as Dr. Lightfoot observes, many of the Jewish doctors now living, when Christ spoke these words, lived until the city was destroyed; as Rabban Simeon, who perished with it, R. Jochanan ben Zaccai, who outlived it, R. Zadoch, R. Ishmael, and others: this is a full and clear proof, that not anything that is said before, relates to the second coming of Christ, the day of judgment, and end of the world; but that all belong to the coming of the son of man, in the destruction of Jerusalem, and to the end of the Jewish state.

The Baptist John Gill

Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass,.... Not the generation of men in general; as if the sense was, that mankind should not cease, until the accomplishment of these things; nor the generation, or people of the Jews, who should continue to be a people, until all were fulfilled; nor the generation of Christians; as if the meaning was, that there should be always a set of Christians, or believers in Christ in the world, until all these events came to pass; but it respects that present age, or generation of men then living in it; and the sense is, that all the men of that age should not die, but some should live

till all these things were fulfilled; see Mt 16:28 as many did, and as there is reason to believe they might, and must, since all these things had their accomplishment, in and about forty years after this: and certain it is, that John, one of the disciples of Christ, outlived the time by many years; and, as Dr. Lightfoot observes, many of the Jewish doctors now living, when Christ spoke these words, lived until the city was destroyed; as Rabban Simeon, who perished with it, R. Jochanan ben Zaccai, who outlived it, R. Zadoch, R. Ishmael, and others: this is a full and clear proof, that not anything that is said before, relates to the second coming of Christ, the day of judgment, and end of the world; but that all belong to the coming of the son of man, in the destruction of Jerusalem, and to the end of the Jewish state.

The Baptist John Broadus

This discourse certainly foretells in the outset the destruction of Jerusalem (e. g., Matthew 24:15-21, Matthew 24:34); and in the conclusion certainly foretells the final coming of our Lord, with the general judgment of mankind and the resulting permanent state of the good and the bad, (Matthew 25:31-46) in a way substantially equivalent to the predictive descriptions afterwards given by the apostles.

Matthew 24:34. Verily, I say unto you (see on "Matthew 5:18"), calling attention to something of special importance. This generation, as in Matthew 23:36, also Matthew 11:16, Matthew 12:41 f.; and compare Luke 17:25 with Luke 21:32. The word cannot have any other meaning here than the obvious one. The attempts to establish for it the sense of race or nation have failed. There are some examples in which it might have such a meaning, but none in which it must, for in every case the recognized meaning will answer, and so another sense is not admissible.

 

[HankD]

"the present generation" The one beginning with the rejection of Jesus Christ by Israel and ending with the fulfillment of the Times of the Gentiles.

Luke 21:24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The times of the Gentiles - the Church typified by the in-gathering of the Gentiles.

Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

HankD

 

[robycop3]

TRY READING TRUE GREEK EXPERTS, OTHER TRANSLATIONS AND BAPTISTS OF THE PAST!

The BDAG Greek-English Lexicon

"...the sum total of those born at the same time, expanded to include all those living at a given time and freq. defined in terms of specific characteristics, generation, contemporaries (Hom. et al.; BGU 1211, 12 [II B.C.] ἕως γενεῶν τριῶν); Jesus looks upon the whole contemp. generation of Israel as a uniform mass confronting him ἡ γ. αὕτη (cp. Gen 7:1; Ps 11:8) Mt 11:16; 12:41f; 23:36; 24:34; Mk 13:30..."

The AMGL Greek-English Lexicon

"...of all the people of a given period: Mat 24:34, Mar 13:30, Luk 21:32..."

The Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon

"...the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Mt.xxiv.34; Mk.xiii.30;... Lk.xxi.32..."

"Truly I tell you: the present generation will live to see it all." (Matt 24:34, REB)

"I tell you in solemn truth that the present generation will certainly not pass away without all these things having first taken place." (Matt 24:34, Weymouth - Baptist)

"I solemnly say to you, the present age will not pass away before all this takes place. (Matt.24:34, Williams - Baptist)

The Baptist Charles H. Spurgeon

Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass,.... Not the generation of men in general; as if the sense was, that mankind should not cease, until the accomplishment of these things; nor the generation, or people of the Jews, who should continue to be a people, until all were fulfilled; nor the generation of Christians; as if the meaning was, that there should be always a set of Christians, or believers in Christ in the world, until all these events came to pass; but it respects that present age, or generation of men then living in it; and the sense is, that all the men of that age should not die, but some should live

till all these things were fulfilled; see Matthew 16:28 as many did, and as there is reason to believe they might, and must, since all these things had their accomplishment, in and about forty years after this: and certain it is, that John, one of the disciples of Christ, outlived the time by many years; and, as Dr. Lightfoot observes, many of the Jewish doctors now living, when Christ spoke these words, lived until the city was destroyed; as Rabban Simeon, who perished with it, R. Jochanan ben Zaccai, who outlived it, R. Zadoch, R. Ishmael, and others: this is a full and clear proof, that not anything that is said before, relates to the second coming of Christ, the day of judgment, and end of the world; but that all belong to the coming of the son of man, in the destruction of Jerusalem, and to the end of the Jewish state.

The Baptist John Gill

Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass,.... Not the generation of men in general; as if the sense was, that mankind should not cease, until the accomplishment of these things; nor the generation, or people of the Jews, who should continue to be a people, until all were fulfilled; nor the generation of Christians; as if the meaning was, that there should be always a set of Christians, or believers in Christ in the world, until all these events came to pass; but it respects that present age, or generation of men then living in it; and the sense is, that all the men of that age should not die, but some should live

till all these things were fulfilled; see Mt 16:28 as many did, and as there is reason to believe they might, and must, since all these things had their accomplishment, in and about forty years after this: and certain it is, that John, one of the disciples of Christ, outlived the time by many years; and, as Dr. Lightfoot observes, many of the Jewish doctors now living, when Christ spoke these words, lived until the city was destroyed; as Rabban Simeon, who perished with it, R. Jochanan ben Zaccai, who outlived it, R. Zadoch, R. Ishmael, and others: this is a full and clear proof, that not anything that is said before, relates to the second coming of Christ, the day of judgment, and end of the world; but that all belong to the coming of the son of man, in the destruction of Jerusalem, and to the end of the Jewish state.

The Baptist John Broadus

This discourse certainly foretells in the outset the destruction of Jerusalem (e. g., Matthew 24:15-21, Matthew 24:34); and in the conclusion certainly foretells the final coming of our Lord, with the general judgment of mankind and the resulting permanent state of the good and the bad, (Matthew 25:31-46) in a way substantially equivalent to the predictive descriptions afterwards given by the apostles.

Matthew 24:34. Verily, I say unto you (see on "Matthew 5:18"), calling attention to something of special importance. This generation, as in Matthew 23:36, also Matthew 11:16, Matthew 12:41 f.; and compare Luke 17:25 with Luke 21:32. The word cannot have any other meaning here than the obvious one. The attempts to establish for it the sense of race or nation have failed. There are some examples in which it might have such a meaning, but none in which it must, for in every case the recognized meaning will answer, and so another sense is not admissible.

Sorry, Captain, but that big ole bear of **PROOF** still blocks your path. The prophesied events simply HAVE NOT YET OCCURRED! There's no avoiding that FACT! All the lexicons, mens' pronouncements, conjectures, & guessworks will NOT make up for the FACT that those events are TOTALLY ABSENT FROM HISTORY. And there are no events which can be substituted for those which are prophesied!



What HAS come to pass from the Olivet Discourse so far has done so LITERALLY, EXACTLY AS WRITTEN in the original language, with no mistaking those events for anything else. Jerusalem was destroyed, and not one stone of the temple was left upon another. There has been, and still is, war & rumor of war. There are persecutions of Christians, with decapitations. Jerusalem is daily trod underfoot by gentiles.

So, no matter what men try to make out of houtos genea, the FACT remains the eschatological events did NOT fall upon the generation(body of all mankind) alive while Jesus was here, nor upon any generation since. What DID fall upon that generation was the "days of vengeance", just as Jesus said. This is different from the eschatological events surrounding His return.

Now, does that mean Jesus was wrong? OF COURSE NOT! It means man's interpretation of His words is wrong. Don't forget that Jesus' prophecies MUST come to pass LITERALLY, EXACTLY AS WRITTEN in the original language.

 

[Hermeneut7]

Sorry, Captain, but that big ole bear of **PROOF** still blocks your path. The prophesied events simply HAVE NOT YET OCCURRED! There's no avoiding that FACT! All the lexicons, mens' pronouncements, conjectures, & guessworks will NOT make up for the FACT that those events are TOTALLY ABSENT FROM HISTORY. And there are no events which can be substituted for those which are prophesied!



What HAS come to pass from the Olivet Discourse so far has done so LITERALLY, EXACTLY AS WRITTEN in the original language, with no mistaking those events for anything else. Jerusalem was destroyed, and not one stone of the temple was left upon another. There has been, and still is, war & rumor of war. There are persecutions of Christians, with decapitations. Jerusalem is daily trod underfoot by gentiles.

So, no matter what men try to make out of houtos genea, the FACT remains the eschatological events did NOT fall upon the generation(body of all mankind) alive while Jesus was here, nor upon any generation since. What DID fall upon that generation was the "days of vengeance", just as Jesus said. This is different from the eschatological events surrounding His return.

Now, does that mean Jesus was wrong? OF COURSE NOT! It means man's interpretation of His words is wrong. Don't forget that Jesus' prophecies MUST come to pass LITERALLY, EXACTLY AS WRITTEN in the original language.

You wrote: "The prophesied events simply HAVE NOT YET OCCURRED!" I'll give just one to start...

"And this good news of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the world, as a testimony to all the nations; and then the end will come." (Matt 24:14, NRSV)

Paul wrote Colossians approximately AD 60 and he stated the following:

"because of the hope laid up for you in heaven. You have heard of this hope before in the word of the truth, the gospel that has come to you. Just as it is bearing fruit and growing in the whole world, so it has been bearing fruit among yourselves from the day you heard it and truly comprehended the grace of God." (Col 1:5-6, NRSV)

The destruction of the Temple in 70AD was 10 years later. The gospel had gone through the "whole world" at AD 60. But more on it here:

"provided that you continue securely established and steadfast in the faith, without shifting from the hope promised by the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven. I, Paul, became a servant of this gospel." (Col 1:23, NRSV)

I find it stunning, absolutely shocking that people living 2000 years beyond the events, know that the events the Bible said have happened, know more than the Holy Spirit inspired word of God! Remember, the children of God live by faith, not by sight:

"Look at the proud! Their spirit is not right in them, but the righteous live by their faith." (Hab 2:4, NRSV)

Have you searched the NT for the words "this generation" to see if you can find if it means anything other than the men living at a particular time? Does it not seem odd that 1800 years passed from the first advent before anyone concocted the convoluted system called Dispensationalism, teaching God has 2 peoples: the assembly of Christ and then Israel?

 

[robycop3]

You wrote: "The prophesied events simply HAVE NOT YET OCCURRED!" I'll give just one to start...

"And this good news of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the world, as a testimony to all the nations; and then the end will come." (Matt 24:14, NRSV)

Paul wrote Colossians approximately AD 60 and he stated the following:

"because of the hope laid up for you in heaven. You have heard of this hope before in the word of the truth, the gospel that has come to you. Just as it is bearing fruit and growing in the whole world, so it has been bearing fruit among yourselves from the day you heard it and truly comprehended the grace of God." (Col 1:5-6, NRSV)

The destruction of the Temple in 70AD was 10 years later. The gospel had gone through the "whole world" at AD 60. But more on it here:

"provided that you continue securely established and steadfast in the faith, without shifting from the hope promised by the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven. I, Paul, became a servant of this gospel." (Col 1:23, NRSV)

I find it stunning, absolutely shocking that people living 2000 years beyond the events, know that the events the Bible said have happened, know more than the Holy Spirit inspired word of God! Remember, the children of God live by faith, not by sight:

"Look at the proud! Their spirit is not right in them, but the righteous live by their faith." (Hab 2:4, NRSV)

Have you searched the NT for the words "this generation" to see if you can find if it means anything other than the men living at a particular time? Does it not seem odd that 1800 years passed from the first advent before anyone concocted the convoluted system called Dispensationalism, teaching God has 2 peoples: the assembly of Christ and then Israel?

!. The Church and Israel are separate entities, even though salvation is open to Israelis & Jews, same as everyone else. There are specific promises made to NATIONAL Israel and Judah that aren't made to the Church in general. And thanx for helping confirm a theory of mine: that believing one false doctrine keeps a foot in the door for others to come in. I don't know if "replacement theology/supersessionalism" came first for you pr preterism did, but both are false.

2. I never said that NO prophecy of Jesus' was unfulfilled. It's very apparent that Jerusalem & the temple were destroyed as He said. And the Gospel was proclaimed to everyone PAUL KNEW ABOUT. He didn't know of the existence of Australia, New Zealand, Japan, New Guinea, Indonesia, or the smaller inhabited Pacific islands Most likely, he didn't know about China, India, Mongolia, Tibet, etc. Only NOW is the Gospel being proclaimed to the most-remote human habitations on earth.

But again - preterism UTTERLY FAILS in the **PROOF** Dept! It remains...FALSE!

 

[Hermeneut7]

!. The Church and Israel are separate entities, even though salvation is open to Israelis & Jews, same as everyone else. There are specific promises made to NATIONAL Israel and Judah that aren't made to the Church in general. And thanx for helping confirm a theory of mine: that believing one false doctrine keeps a foot in the door for others to come in. I don't know if "replacement theology/supersessionalism" came first for you pr preterism did, but both are false.

2. I never said that NO prophecy of Jesus' was unfulfilled. It's very apparent that Jerusalem & the temple were destroyed as He said. And the Gospel was proclaimed to everyone PAUL KNEW ABOUT. He didn't know of the existence of Australia, New Zealand, Japan, New Guinea, Indonesia, or the smaller inhabited Pacific islands Most likely, he didn't know about China, India, Mongolia, Tibet, etc. Only NOW is the Gospel being proclaimed to the most-remote human habitations on earth.

But again - preterism UTTERLY FAILS in the **PROOF** Dept! It remains...FALSE!

The question of how we know what is literal or what is symbolic or figurative is important. A challenge for you to explain:

You say Matt.34:29 is literal and has not happened anywhere in history, so it has to be future. I can easily demonstrate from God's word that it is not literal, but figurative language, colorful imagery to give a mental image of the horrors of 70AD:

"When Isaiah portrays the coming doom of Babylon, he sees all nature in convulsion. "Behold, the day of Jehovah comes, cruel, and wrath, and burning of anger. . . . For the stars of the heavens and their constellations shall not shed forth their light: dark has the sun become in his going forth, and the moon will not cause her light to shine" (Isa. xiii, 9, 10). Compare also chap, xxiv, 19-23; xxxiv, 1-10; Nahum i, 3-6." (It is prophetic or apocalyptic language, not to be taken literally.)

Now you say the "fig tree" in v32 is a symbol of Israel and that is the meaning here. I challenge you to show any such evidence that the fig tree represents Israel. It is not in the Bible anywhere, period. It is not found in the apocrypha either. I checked the Jewish Encyclopedia and certainly it would show it, but no, it is not there either. JewishEncyclopedia.com

Well, well, well... guess where the idea is found... in the gnostic writings. In the online Gnostic Library the Apocalypse of Peter is posted and it is here: The Apocalypse of Peter -- Gnostic Society Library: Christian Apocrypha and Early Christian Literature Guess what we find written in that gnostic book?

"And ye, take ye the likeness thereof (learn a parable) from the fig-tree: so soon as the shoot thereof is come forth and the twigs grown, the end of the world shall come.

And I, Peter, answered and said unto him: Interpret unto me concerning the fig-tree, whereby we shall perceive it; for throughout all its days doth the fig-tree send forth shoots, and every year it bringeth forth its fruit for its master. What then meaneth the parable of the fig-tree? We know it not.

And the Master (Lord) answered and said unto me: Understandest thou not that the fig-tree is the house of Israel?"

If you wish to base your beliefs on gnosticism, go for it. For me, I'll stand on God's word alone:

"Now these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes; that in us ye might learn not to go beyond the things which are written; that no one of you be puffed up for the one against the other." (1Cor 4:6, ASV)

Or, as in the KJV: "not to think above that which is written".

 

[robycop3]

The question of how we know what is literal or what is symbolic or figurative is important. A challenge for you to explain:

You say Matt.34:29 is literal and has not happened anywhere in history, so it has to be future. I can easily demonstrate from God's word that it is not literal, but figurative language, colorful imagery to give a mental image of the horrors of 70AD:

"When Isaiah portrays the coming doom of Babylon, he sees all nature in convulsion. "Behold, the day of Jehovah comes, cruel, and wrath, and burning of anger. . . . For the stars of the heavens and their constellations shall not shed forth their light: dark has the sun become in his going forth, and the moon will not cause her light to shine" (Isa. xiii, 9, 10). Compare also chap, xxiv, 19-23; xxxiv, 1-10; Nahum i, 3-6." (It is prophetic or apocalyptic language, not to be taken literally.)

Now you say the "fig tree" in v32 is a symbol of Israel and that is the meaning here. I challenge you to show any such evidence that the fig tree represents Israel. It is not in the Bible anywhere, period. It is not found in the apocrypha either. I checked the Jewish Encyclopedia and certainly it would show it, but no, it is not there either. JewishEncyclopedia.com

Well, well, well... guess where the idea is found... in the gnostic writings. In the online Gnostic Library the Apocalypse of Peter is posted and it is here: The Apocalypse of Peter -- Gnostic Society Library: Christian Apocrypha and Early Christian Literature Guess what we find written in that gnostic book?

"And ye, take ye the likeness thereof (learn a parable) from the fig-tree: so soon as the shoot thereof is come forth and the twigs grown, the end of the world shall come.

And I, Peter, answered and said unto him: Interpret unto me concerning the fig-tree, whereby we shall perceive it; for throughout all its days doth the fig-tree send forth shoots, and every year it bringeth forth its fruit for its master. What then meaneth the parable of the fig-tree? We know it not.

And the Master (Lord) answered and said unto me: Understandest thou not that the fig-tree is the house of Israel?"

If you wish to base your beliefs on gnosticism, go for it. For me, I'll stand on God's word alone:

"Now these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes; that in us ye might learn not to go beyond the things which are written; that no one of you be puffed up for the one against the other." (1Cor 4:6, ASV)

Or, as in the KJV: "not to think above that which is written".

Sir, you're trying to use the preterists' fave smokescreen - reducing "inconvenient" Scriptures to "figurative/symbolic" status. well, it WON'T WORK!

Was Jerusalem figuratively, or literally, destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD?

Is there one stone of the temple of Jesus' time left upon another?

Is there war and rumor of war? Or, are all those things symbolic?

Again & again, I shall ask preterists for **PROOF** their pronouncements are true. So far, they're batting .000.

It's the preterists who go beyond the things that are written. Jesus said the great trib will be the worst disaster in history & it'll be worldwide, but prets try to limit it to the siege of Jerusalem while the rest of the world went on unaffected. And prets cannot show us when all life in the seas died, when all green grass was burned up, or when there was a rain of rocks.

And they cannot show us when Jesus returned in great power and glory, as He said He will, SEEN BY ALL, also as He Himself said.

Preterism remains a false doctrine, phony as a Ford Corvette.

 

[Covenanter]

"Symbolic/figurative language" is the main excuse used by prets to try to make up for their lack of **PROOF** for their pronouncements. However, that excuse melts in the face of the LITERAL fulfillment of other biblical prophecies, including parts of Jesus' Olivet Discourse - not to mention the over-100 Old testament prophecies about Jesus' first coming, life, death, & resurrection that came to pass LITERALLY, EXACTLY AS WRITTEN. There's simply NO valid reason to believe the rest of the prophecies won't be fulfilled LITERALLY, TO THE LETTER.

Let's start with Zechariah 9 -
We all rejoice in the perfect, literal fulfilment in Zechariah 9:9
Read on to see the context, & the results of that glorious entry into Jerusalem, then explain LITERALLY, EXACTLY AS WRITTEN.

 

[Genevanpreacher]

My 'partial preterism - fulfillment theology' I follow is based on, in Matt. 24, having 3 questions asked of the Lord Jesus.

How you can keep switching your 'literal interpretation' to include the book of Revelation is beyond me.

The Lord Jesus obviously answered all 3.

One was near future, one was distant future, and his return was the end future.

I don't see a conflict with 'fulfillment theology' and what Jesus himself said - literally.

 

[kyredneck]

NONE of the Jews of the generation who rejected Jesus were alive in 135 AD so why should God punish them for their rejection of Jesus? Perhaps Hadrian had his own reasons.

Well, there were the curses of Lev 26 & Dt 28 which followed the Jews for centuries. But for the most part they've been 'loosed' from those beginning early 19th century:

Emancipation

 

[kyredneck]

TRY READING TRUE GREEK EXPERTS, OTHER TRANSLATIONS AND BAPTISTS OF THE PAST!

The BDAG Greek-English Lexicon

"...the sum total of those born at the same time, expanded to include all those living at a given time and freq. defined in terms of specific characteristics, generation, contemporaries (Hom. et al.; BGU 1211, 12 [II B.C.] ἕως γενεῶν τριῶν); Jesus looks upon the whole contemp. generation of Israel as a uniform mass confronting him ἡ γ. αὕτη (cp. Gen 7:1; Ps 11:8) Mt 11:16; 12:41f; 23:36; 24:34; Mk 13:30..."

The AMGL Greek-English Lexicon

"...of all the people of a given period: Mat 24:34, Mar 13:30, Luk 21:32..."

The Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon

"...the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Mt.xxiv.34; Mk.xiii.30;... Lk.xxi.32..."

"Truly I tell you: the present generation will live to see it all." (Matt 24:34, REB)

"I tell you in solemn truth that the present generation will certainly not pass away without all these things having first taken place." (Matt 24:34, Weymouth - Baptist)

"I solemnly say to you, the present age will not pass away before all this takes place. (Matt.24:34, Williams - Baptist)

The Baptist Charles H. Spurgeon

Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass,.... Not the generation of men in general; as if the sense was, that mankind should not cease, until the accomplishment of these things; nor the generation, or people of the Jews, who should continue to be a people, until all were fulfilled; nor the generation of Christians; as if the meaning was, that there should be always a set of Christians, or believers in Christ in the world, until all these events came to pass; but it respects that present age, or generation of men then living in it; and the sense is, that all the men of that age should not die, but some should live

till all these things were fulfilled; see Matthew 16:28 as many did, and as there is reason to believe they might, and must, since all these things had their accomplishment, in and about forty years after this: and certain it is, that John, one of the disciples of Christ, outlived the time by many years; and, as Dr. Lightfoot observes, many of the Jewish doctors now living, when Christ spoke these words, lived until the city was destroyed; as Rabban Simeon, who perished with it, R. Jochanan ben Zaccai, who outlived it, R. Zadoch, R. Ishmael, and others: this is a full and clear proof, that not anything that is said before, relates to the second coming of Christ, the day of judgment, and end of the world; but that all belong to the coming of the son of man, in the destruction of Jerusalem, and to the end of the Jewish state.

The Baptist John Gill

Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass,.... Not the generation of men in general; as if the sense was, that mankind should not cease, until the accomplishment of these things; nor the generation, or people of the Jews, who should continue to be a people, until all were fulfilled; nor the generation of Christians; as if the meaning was, that there should be always a set of Christians, or believers in Christ in the world, until all these events came to pass; but it respects that present age, or generation of men then living in it; and the sense is, that all the men of that age should not die, but some should live

till all these things were fulfilled; see Mt 16:28 as many did, and as there is reason to believe they might, and must, since all these things had their accomplishment, in and about forty years after this: and certain it is, that John, one of the disciples of Christ, outlived the time by many years; and, as Dr. Lightfoot observes, many of the Jewish doctors now living, when Christ spoke these words, lived until the city was destroyed; as Rabban Simeon, who perished with it, R. Jochanan ben Zaccai, who outlived it, R. Zadoch, R. Ishmael, and others: this is a full and clear proof, that not anything that is said before, relates to the second coming of Christ, the day of judgment, and end of the world; but that all belong to the coming of the son of man, in the destruction of Jerusalem, and to the end of the Jewish state.

The Baptist John Broadus

This discourse certainly foretells in the outset the destruction of Jerusalem (e. g., Matthew 24:15-21, Matthew 24:34); and in the conclusion certainly foretells the final coming of our Lord, with the general judgment of mankind and the resulting permanent state of the good and the bad, (Matthew 25:31-46) in a way substantially equivalent to the predictive descriptions afterwards given by the apostles.

Matthew 24:34. Verily, I say unto you (see on "Matthew 5:18"), calling attention to something of special importance. This generation, as in Matthew 23:36, also Matthew 11:16, Matthew 12:41 f.; and compare Luke 17:25 with Luke 21:32. The word cannot have any other meaning here than the obvious one. The attempts to establish for it the sense of race or nation have failed. There are some examples in which it might have such a meaning, but none in which it must, for in every case the recognized meaning will answer, and so another sense is not admissible.

Outstanding post brother! Thank God for all those 'phony' Baptists of the past, none of which probably had ever heard of the term 'Preterism'.

 

[kyredneck]

Baptist

Lol, now you've got me thinking about all those 'phony' non-Preterists of the past (again, probably had never even heard the word 'Preterism') that espoused Preterist interpretations. Take these examples from Biblehub.com concerning Mt 16:28:

28 Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Mt 16

Benson Commentary:
“….the disciples saw their Master coming in his kingdom, when they were witnesses of his transfiguration, resurrection, and ascension, and the miraculous gifts of his Spirit conferred upon them; and lived to see Jerusalem, with the Jewish state, destroyed, and the gospel propagated through the greatest part of the then known world.”

Elliot’s Commentary:
“….the meaning of the words “coming in His kingdom.” The solution of the problem is to be found in the great prophecy of Matthew 24. In a sense which was real, though partial, the judgment which fell upon the Jewish Church, the destruction of the Holy City and the Temple, the onward march of the Church of Christ, was as the coming of the Son of Man in His kingdom.”

Barnes Notes:
“…Son of man coming in his kingdom - Mark and Luke have explained this: Mark 9:1, "Until they have seen the kingdom of God come with power;" Luke 9:27, "Till they see the kingdom of God." The meaning evidently is, "till they shall see my kingdom," i. e., my church, now small, feeble, and despised, greatly enlarged, established, and spreading with great rapidity and extent. All this was accomplished. All these apostles, except Judas, lived to see the wonders of the day of Pentecost; some of them, John particularly, saw the Jewish nation scattered, the temple destroyed, the gospel established in Asia, Rome, Greece, and in a large part of the known world.”

JF&B
“…28. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here—"some of those standing here."
which shall not taste of death, fill they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom—or, as in Mark (Mr 9:1), "till they see the kingdom of God come with power"; or, as in Luke (Lu 9:27), more simply still, "till they see the kingdom of God." The reference, beyond doubt, is to the firm establishment and victorious progress, in the lifetime of some then present, of that new kingdom of Christ, which was destined to work the greatest of all changes on this earth, and be the grand pledge of His final coming in glory.”

Gill’s Exposition:
“…the appearance of his kingdom, in greater glory and power, upon his resurrection from the dead, and his ascension to heaven; when the Spirit was poured down in an extraordinary manner, and the Gospel was preached all over the world; was confirmed by signs and wonders, and made effectual to the conversion and salvation of many souls; which many then present lived to see, and were concerned in: though it seems chiefly to have regard to his coming, to show his regal power and authority in the destruction of the Jews; when those his enemies that would not he should reign over them, were ordered to be brought and slain before him; and this the Apostle John, for one, lived to be a witness of.”

Expositor’s Greek Testament:
“…Christ’s speech was controlled not merely by His own thoughts but by the hopes of the future entertained by His disciples. He had to promise the advent of the Son of Man in His Kingdom or of the Kingdom of God in power (Mk.) within a generation…….The words of Jesus about the future provide for two possible alternatives: for a near advent and for an indefinitely postponed advent. His promises naturally contemplate the former ….”

Cambridge Bible for Schools:
“…St Matthew’s version of this “hard saying” indicates more plainly than the other Synoptic Gospels, the personal presence of Christ. St Mark has, “till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power;” St Luke, “till they see the kingdom of God;” but the meaning in each case is the same. Various solutions are given. The expression is referred to (1) the Transfiguration, (2) the Day of Pentecost, (3) the Fall of Jerusalem. The last best fulfils the conditions of interpretation—a judicial coming—a signal and visible event, and one that would happen in the lifetime of some, but not of all, who were present.”

Pulpit Commentary:
"…he now announces, with the formula used by him to present some revelation of Divine truth, that there was to be a coming of the Son of man at no very distant date. This advent is doubtless the destruction of Jerusalem, which, as it occurred only some forty years after this time, some of his auditors, apostles and the multitude, would live to behold.”

 

[kyredneck]

....more 'phoniness' from non-Preterists of the past:

23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee into the next: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone through the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. Mt 10

Benson Commentary:
“….ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel — To preach the gospel in each of them, make what haste you will, until the Son of man shall come — To destroy their capital city, temple, and nation. The destruction of Jerusalem by Titus is often called the coming of the Son of man. See Matthew 24:27; Matthew 24:37; Matthew 24:39; Matthew 24:44; Luke 18:5.”

Barne’s Notes:
“…Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel ... - That is, in fleeing from persecutors from one city to another, you shall not have gone to every city in Judea until the end of the Jewish economy shall occur. See the notes at Matthew 24:28-30. By "the coming of the Son of Man," that is, of "Christ," is probably meant the destruction of Jerusalem, which happened about thirty years after this was spoken. The words are often used in this sense. See Matthew 24:30; Mark 13:26; Luke 21:27, Luke 21:32.”

JF&B:
“….Ye shall not have gone over—Ye shall in nowise have completed.
the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come—To understand this—as Lange and others do—in the first instance, of Christ's own peregrinations, as if He had said, "Waste not your time upon hostile places, for I Myself will be after you ere your work be over"—seems almost trifling. "The coming of the Son of man" has a fixed doctrinal sense, here referring immediately to the crisis of Israel's history as the visible kingdom of God, when Christ was to come and judge it; when "the wrath would come upon it to the uttermost"; and when, on the ruins of Jerusalem and the old economy, He would establish His own kingdom. This, in the uniform language of Scripture, is more immediately "the coming of the Son of man," "the day of vengeance of our God" (Mt 16:28; 24:27, 34; compare with Heb 10:25; Jas 5:7-9)—but only as being such a lively anticipation of His second coming for vengeance and deliverance. So understood, it is parallel with Mt 24:14 (on which see).”

Cambridge Bible For Schools:
“…till the Son of man be come] The passage in Luke 21, which is to a great extent parallel to this, treats of the destruction of Jerusalem; and no one who carefully weighs our Lord’s words can fail to see that in a real sense He came in the destruction of Jerusalem. That event was in truth the judgment of Christ falling on the unrepentant nation. In this sense the Gospel had not been preached to all the cities of Israel before Christ came.”

 

[kyredneck]

What kind of proof are you needing? Isn't God's Word enough?

I recollect he has spent a lot of time over on the Versions/Translations Forum with JoJ, and I'm pretty sure his dispyism is in the same vein as JoJ's, so, no, God's Word is not enough:

Apocalyptic as literary genre and interpreting Revelation