Preterism - True Or false?

[HankD]

Quoting Greek to make a point regarding definition/translation has the obvious danger - we have preferred translations that 'prove' our theology.

Even a Greek expert & professional translator - Professor John of Japan is not immune to that - in another thread, long ago.

I prefer to refer to Strong's numbering to see how words are used in context, & the range of possible meanings.

e.g. Tachos

Why demean the koine Greek language? The language by which God chose to write the NT and then cast aspersions on those who spend a lifetime in its study and translation - taking the gospel to distant lands?

If He came "shortly" as in a humanly speaking short period of time according to the preterist view then what of the following passage and the Greek words therein?

2 Peter 3
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

When did this happen? It happened but no one noticed?

Or:

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

It seems preterism has a lot more semantic explaining to do than futurism.

Our views have to do with word definitions that we identify as either literal or metaphorica or even a mix.

No matter how we align the list under which heading will cause issues further on in the scripture.

So the debate goes on.

HankD

 

[TCassidy]

Even a Greek expert & professional translator - Professor John of Japan is not immune to that - in another thread, long ago.

John is right. You are wrong.

I prefer to refer to Strong's numbering to see how words are used in context, & the range of possible meanings.

Another Greek "expert" using Strong's, the very worst concordance/lexicon ever published.

If you are ignorant of Greek at least use an Analytical Concordance such as Young's.

Strong's is notorious for its many errors, especially the oft recurring root fallacy which is in evidence in this thread.

For instance, ταχεως is not TACHEO or even tachos. They are not even the same part of speech. ταχεως as used in 2 Timothy 4:9 is an adverb. When used with ἐν the meaning changes.

 

[robycop3]

Well, this preterist is on vacation in Argentina. I will read through this thread and respond when I have time and if my next hotel has good WiFi.

But....completely absent from history? What kind of proof are you needing? Isn't God's Word enough? When Christ said words like "this generation " and "soon" and "quickly" do these all get discounted?

There's only ONE proof that would make preterism true - and that's the past occurrence of those prophesied events. However, the eschatological events are completely absent from history because of the simple FACT that they HAVEN'T YET HAPPENED!

SOME of Jesus' prophecies in the Olivet Discourse have come to pass, but NOT the ones preterists include in their doctrine & pronouncements. For example, Jerusalem & the temple were destroyed in 70 AD precisely as written. There's not one stone of the actual temple left upon another, just as written. And there's war & rumor of war going on right now, and has been going on for some time, as prophesied. Christians are being persecuted, with decapitations, as per ISIS & other evil groups. And Jerusalem is being trod underfoot by gentiles right now, as per the parade of Muslims to & from their shrines there, as well as by non-Jewish Christians to & from the Christian shrines there, as well as the non-Jewish inhabitants who control several parts of the city.

But there's been NO great antichrist world ruler, NO abomination of desolation, NO great trib, NO mark of the beast, and certainly NO glorious return of Jesus in great power & glory, SEEN BY ALL, even those who pierced Him. There's nothing in the preterist imagination that'll fill in those gaps between prophecy and history! They simply HAVEN'T YET HAPPENED!

 

[robycop3]

The generation of mankind from the sack of Jerusalem until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

HankD

The "fulness of the gentiles" is not over. There are many more gentiles than Israelis being saved every day.

 

[Yeshua1]

There's only ONE proof that would make preterism true - and that's the past occurrence of those prophesied events. However, the eschatological events are completely absent from history because of the simple FACT that they HAVEN'T YET HAPPENED!

SOME of Jesus' prophecies in the Olivet Discourse have come to pass, but NOT the ones preterists include in their doctrine & pronouncements. For example, Jerusalem & the temple were destroyed in 70 AD precisely as written. There's not one stone of the actual temple left upon another, just as written. And there's war & rumor of war going on right now, and has been going on for some time, as prophesied. Christians are being persecuted, with decapitations, as per ISIS & other evil groups. And Jerusalem is being trod underfoot by gentiles right now, as per the parade of Muslims to & from their shrines there, as well as by non-Jewish Christians to & from the Christian shrines there, as well as the non-Jewish inhabitants who control several parts of the city.

But there's been NO great antichrist world ruler, NO abomination of desolation, NO great trib, NO mark of the beast, and certainly NO glorious return of Jesus in great power & glory, SEEN BY ALL, even those who pierced Him. There's nothing in the preterist imagination that'll fill in those gaps between prophecy and history! They simply HAVEN'T YET HAPPENED!

That system all stands/falls depending on IF the second coming has already happened, and the resurrection of all of the dead in Christ!

 

[robycop3]

Let's look in Scripture to see which events of the Olivet prophecy are recorded in Scripture or history within 40 years.

Matthew 24:1-3 The destruction - took place in AD 70.

Matthew 24:4-8 Imposters, wars, famines, earthquakes - these occurred as recorded in Acts but without prophetic significance.

9-13 Persecutions & false prophets - recorded in Acts.

Persecutions & false prophets are in action RIGHT NOW.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

And the gospel is JUST NOW being brought to the more-remote populations of the world.​

Began in Acts 2:

5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.​

Recorded in Romans 16:

25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith— 27 to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.​

The end of what will come. back to the Disciples' question -

And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?​

The destruction would obviously bring about the end of the Old Covenant age. The New Covenant in Jesus' blood began with his death & resurrection, & is celebrated at every Communion supper.

I don't think there's much argument about when the New Covenant began, nor about the fact that we're under it now, with the main dissent being from Orthodox Jews.

15-22 Abomination of desolation, siege & great tribulation - Luke identifies the abomination as Jerusalem surrounded by armies the Roman eagle standards were an/the abomination.

No, he DIDN'T. He said Jerusalem's DESOLATION was near. that's different from the AOD. The AOD is identified in Daniel 9. It's when the antichrist & his deputy the false prophet enter the temple, setting up the AC's statue, which the FP will supernatuallly cause to speak, and the AC declares himself to be God.

History (e.g. Josephus) records the events & that many fled when they saw the events - saw the signs Jesus had given.

Josephus used his imagination some, being careful to not write anything that might offend the Flavius family who'd adopted him. He played the child's game of saying clouds were whatever he imagined them to be, such as seeing Jesus in the clouds. Funny, no one but Josephus recorded that if it'd REALLY happened!

The specific great tribulation would occur as days of vengeance because of the rejection by the Jewish leaders of their Messiah. Other persecutions of the Jews subsequently occurred but the prophesied tribulation occurred in the run up to AD 70.

Oh, REALLY?

Then, when did it rain rocks? When did all life in the seas die? When was all green grass burnt up, etc. etc. etc?

23-25 False Christs & prophets - recorded in Acts. The activities within the besieged city could/would have included great signs and wonders to deceive as they attempted in Samaria & Cyprus.

There's no lack of false christs now, such as Maiatreya, the late Jim Jones, & the slew of false preachers active right now.

26-28 False claims of a secret coming. The real coming would be evidenced among other things by the gathering of the eagles - Roman standards.

Equating Roman standards to eagles is absolutely goofy.

Clearly the prophecy so far was fulfilled by AD 70.

To be continued.

No, it has NOT!

The prophecies MUST be fulfilled EXACTLY AS WRITTEN, in their original language. Very obviously, they have NOT been yet so fulfilled!

Sir, you've been deceived by the garbage of charlatans such as Alcazar, Gentry, Preston, Sproul, etc. All their pro-pret stuff is horse feathers. Preterism is just another false doctrine of Satan's, designed to take away the Christian's hope of Jesus' return to take His saints to be with Him eternally. there's not a quark of TRUTH in preterism!

""PRETERISM - PHONY AS A FORD CORVETTE!""

 

[robycop3]

22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
32 Verily I say unto you, This mankind shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lk 21

Minutes later:

35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this mankind. Mt 25

It's a travesty the violence that some will do to the word of God... all the while emphasizing Context! Context! Context! How phony can you be?

Context! Context! Context!

Context! Context! Context!

Context! Context! Context!

And the "days of vengeance" were accomplished 66-70 AD. But a much-greater punishment of the Jews for their rejection of Jesus and their continuing in false worship began 135-136 AD when Hadrian booted them entirely outta the Roman empire & gave their land to the Philistines.

 

[robycop3]

38 Then certain of the scribes and Pharisees answered him, saying, Teacher, we would see a sign from thee.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous mankind seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given it but the sign of Jonah the prophet:
40 for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41 The men of Nineveh shall stand up in the judgment with this mankind, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, a greater than Jonah is here.
42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this mankind, and shall condemn it: for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
43 But the unclean spirit, when he is gone out of the man, passeth through waterless places, seeking rest, and findeth it not.
44 Then he saith, I will return into my house whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man becometh worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this evil mankind. Mt 12

1 And the Pharisees and Sadducees came, and trying him asked him to show them a sign from heaven.
2 But he answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the heaven is red.
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to-day: for the heaven is red and lowering. Ye know how to discern the face of the heaven; but ye cannot discern the signs of the times.
4 An evil and adulterous mankind seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of Jonah. And he left them, and departed. Mt 16

24 for as the lightning, when it lighteneth out of the one part under the heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall the Son of man be in his day.
25 But first must he suffer many things and be rejected of this mankind. Lu 17

16 But whereunto shall I liken this mankind? It is like unto children sitting in the marketplaces, who call unto their fellows
17 and say, We piped unto you, and ye did not dance; we wailed, and ye did not mourn.
18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a demon.
19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold, a gluttonous man and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners! And wisdom is justified by her works. Mt 11

....and you've the gall to broad brush preterists as phony?

OF COURSE I do. The eschatological events have simply NOT YET HAPPENED. Prets come up empty in the PROOF Dept. every time.

 

[robycop3]

Continued..

Matthew 24:29 ... powers of heaven shaken. These events were said by the prophets to occur during various judgments, e.g Isaiah 13 when Babylon would be destroyed by the Medes.

Do you know what "the powers of the heavens" are? They're the apparent courses thru the sky that the permanent celestial bodies appear to follow. They've not been changed since the time of Hezekiah, 700s BC, when the sun temporarily reversed its course at Hezekiah's request to Isaiah. ('Twas during this time the year's length became its present length from 360 days.) And the medes didn't destroy babylon - they conquered it. Babylon still existed in Jesus' time.

30 The sign of the Son of Man .... coming... This is the problem verse, but the context calls for it to be understood in terms of the destruction. Certainly the tribes of the land would have mourned as they saw the inevitable destruction Jesus had repeated warned them about. 'Land' & 'earth' are translation of the same word ge. See also Revelation 1:7 - an event that would occur shortly, indicating a date for John's visions before AD 70. They would 'see' him veiled by clouds by understanding the truth of his prophecies by what was happening all around them.

Pure speculation. We don't know what His sign will be, but it'll be unmistakable & be seen by all, as Jesus Himself will be when He appears. And if Jesus woulda meant only the Israelis, He woulda said such! No, ALL the tribes of the earth will mourn, just as Jesus prophesied!

It is apparent from verses 35-44 that this 'coming' that in context would occur at the time of the destruction is NOT his final coming for resurrection & judgment. Note that Jesus was glorified by his miracles, & would also be glorified by the fulfilment of his prophecies.

e.g.
Luke 4:15, 5:25-26, 7:16, 13:17, John 2:11, & many others.

Not kosher to read new meanings into God's word!

 

[robycop3]

Good point. Matthew 23:

31 “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. 33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.​

Peter agrees - Acts 3:

22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.'​

Paul agrees - 1 Thessalonians 2:

14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they didfrom the Judeans, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men, 16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.​

Which John confirms in Revelation 18:

24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.​

The Holy Spirit, by Stephen, declared the unbelieving Jews 'uncircumcised.' Acts 7:51 They reacted according to Jesus' prophecy. Unbelieving Jews were no longer God's people - if unbelievers ever were.

Exodus 20: 5 ....For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.​

The Jews who hated Jesus, together with their unrepentant children, grand- & great grandchildren, those born during the 40 years of God's longsuffering, did suffer the wrath, the vengeance of God in AD 70. There is no possibility of our holy & just God punishing further 60 or more generations, as Ezekiel 18:1-4 explains.

The Old Covenant & those who trusted in the Law, came to a complete & visible end. The New Covenant is in effect. What happened to surviving unbelieving Jews, (the dispersion) & those down the millennia & who claim to be Jews & take the name 'Israel' for their nation is not a subject of Bible prophecy.

Many thousands of Jews did indeed believe in their Messiah, as recorded in Acts. 144,000 were delivered from the great tribulation.

But they were rejected by the unbelievers & became full members of the church of the redeemed people of God. Galatians 3:

26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.​

Yeah - look to the newspapers etc for the fulfilment of prophecy. The Word of God can be twisted to fit whatever you want it to say.
NOT

Sir, you simply don't have a leg to stand on, preterism-wise. The prophesied eschatological events have simply NOT YET OCCURRED! There's nothing you can invent that can substitute for them! The pret pronouncements are simply hot air!

PRETERIST CREDIBILITY IS ZERO!

 

[robycop3]

Quoting Greek to make a point regarding definition/translation has the obvious danger - we have preferred translations that 'prove' our theology.

Even a Greek expert & professional translator - Professor John of Japan is not immune to that - in another thread, long ago.

I prefer to refer to Strong's numbering to see how words are used in context, & the range of possible meanings.

e.g. Tachos

Sir, I trust Dr. Cassidy's interps of Koine Greek above any which you may invent, including many in Strong's.

Again & again, I shall hold preterists to the standard of **PROVING** their assertions! I have Encyclopaedia Britannica & other reference books right in front of me, and the occurrences of any of the prophesied eschatological events is absent from all of them! Preterism is simply without foundation and without proof. And most historians believe that the Revelation was given to John during the reign of Domitian, which ended in 96 AD. (Nero had died in 68 AD.)

With no disrespect meant to you, Sir, you simply CANNOT PROVE ONE POINT of preterism! It's a FALSE DOCTRINE & there's no getting by that!

 

[Yeshua1]

Sir, I trust Dr. Cassidy's interps of Koine Greek above any which you may invent, including many in Strong's.

Again & again, I shall hold preterists to the standard of **PROVING** their assertions! I have Encyclopaedia Britannica & other reference books right in front of me, and the occurrences of any of the prophesied eschatological events is absent from all of them! Preterism is simply without foundation and without proof. And most historians believe that the Revelation was given to John during the reign of Domitian, which ended in 96 AD. (Nero had died in 68 AD.)

With no disrespect meant to you, Sir, you simply CANNOT PROVE ONE POINT of preterism! It's a FALSE DOCTRINE & there's no getting by that!

IF the second coming has already happened, they would be right, if not....

 

[HankD]

IF the second coming has already happened, they would be right, if not....

Though scripture is our final authority church history documentation does have some value.
A few years ago Tom Asterisk and I looked at Early Church Fathers (ECF) writings. Tom was challenged to find an ECF (post AD70) who was full preterist. Tom made a claim for one author because he spoke of the sack of Jerusalem as the days of vengeance. On the other hand I found ECF who wrote before AD70, around AD70, eclipsing AD70 and after AD70 (some well after) who spoke in no uncertain terms of a FUTURE Second Coming.

There is NO historical evidence for a clear cut preterist view among the ECF.
ALL were futurists.

HankD

 

[Genevanpreacher]

I believe preterism is false because the events preterists SAY have already occurred are completely absent from history. I await any preterist replies.

*chuckle*

Oh! You were serious?

 

[Genevanpreacher]

Abomination of Desolation -

Already occurred.

"Following the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in the year 70, the area of the Temple was deliberately left in ruins (desolated)* (first by the Romans, then by the Byzantines). This desecration was not redressed until the Muslim conquest of the city by the Caliph Omar ibn al-Khattab in 638. He ordered the clearing of the site and the building of a house of prayer.

Some 50 years later, the Umayyad Caliph Abd al-Malik built the Dome of the Rock to enshrine the outcrop of bedrock believed to be the place of the sacrifice on Mount Moriah. He (or his son, the Caliph al-Walid I) also built in 1033 the large mosque at the southern end of the Haram, which came to be called al-Aqsa after the Koranic name attributed to the entire area."

The Temple Mount

(*my Biblical word)

 

[kyredneck]

Prets come up empty in the PROOF Dept.

No, orthodox Preterism has a very good grasp of things, maybe it's YOU that's cut yourself off from the marvelous fulfillments that are there for those with eyes to see and ears to hear.

 

[Covenanter]

And the "days of vengeance" were accomplished 66-70 AD. But a much-greater punishment of the Jews for their rejection of Jesus and their continuing in false worship began 135-136 AD when Hadrian booted them entirely outta the Roman empire & gave their land to the Philistines.

The days of vengeance were specifically prophesied by Jesus, & as you agree, were accomplished.

NONE of the Jews of the generation who rejected Jesus were alive in 135 AD so why should God punish them for their rejection of Jesus? Perhaps Hadrian had his own reasons.

Christians also suffered persecution from the Romans. What was that a punishment for?

 

[HankD]

Abomination of Desolation -

Already occurred.

"Following the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in the year 70, the area of the Temple was deliberately left in ruins (desolated)* (first by the Romans, then by the Byzantines). This desecration was not redressed until the Muslim conquest of the city by the Caliph Omar ibn al-Khattab in 638. He ordered the clearing of the site and the building of a house of prayer.

Some 50 years later, the Umayyad Caliph Abd al-Malik built the Dome of the Rock to enshrine the outcrop of bedrock believed to be the place of the sacrifice on Mount Moriah. He (or his son, the Caliph al-Walid I) also built in 1033 the large mosque at the southern end of the Haram, which came to be called al-Aqsa after the Koranic name attributed to the entire area."

The Temple Mount

(*my Biblical word)

Which will continue until the Times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

HankD

 

[kyredneck]

Abomination of Desolation - Already occurred.

Yea already occurred, but LONG before the Dome of the Rock. Again, it's such a simple hermeneutic to compare scripture with scripture and let it interpret itself:

15 When therefore ye see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand),
16 then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains: Mt 24

14 But when ye see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not (let him that readeth understand), then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains: Mk 13

20 But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand.
21 Then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains; and let them that are in the midst of her depart out; and let not them that are in the country enter therein. Lk 21

When You See Jerusalem Surrounded.....

 

[HankD]

NONE of the Jews of the generation who rejected Jesus were alive in 135 AD so why should God punish them for their rejection of Jesus?

As a people/nation then and today in their synagogues reject their predicted Messiah until the vail is removed from their eyes.

Christians also suffered persecution from the Romans. What was that a punishment for?

Not punishment but a glory to God of martyrdom for the name of Jesus