Preterism - True Or false?

[robycop3]

A little aside - Some prets say Jesus told some Pharisees that ALL THAT WAS WRITTEN against the Jews would fall upon THAT generation of jews. And it did, in 66-70 AD.

BUT...

That was NOT the prophesied eschatological events! Those prophecies hadn't yet been written. What those events were, were the DAYS OF VENGEANCE Jesus had prophesied.

BUT...

A MUCH-GREATER punishment fell upon the Jews in 135-136 AD when hadrian kicked them outta their land, and outta the Roman empire, period. That was the beginning of their punishment for rejecting and killing Jesus. That punishment continued for over 1800 years, during which the Jews were persecuted and hated wherever they went. It culminated in the nazi holocaust, but soon as the nazis fell, God began to finally lift their punishment.

We now see world events heading toward the fulfillment of the eschatological prophecies, and when they start, they'll come in rapid succession, as the great trib won't last the full 7 years lest all flesh perish.

The tech for the marka the beast has existed for about 15 years, and we see a US company offering to implant microchips in its employees for opening doors at their place of business, etc. But, long as they're a large number of Christians, such microchipping will be unacceptable to most, even among non-Christians. (Muslims already have prohibitions against such devices.)

Sorry, preterists; your pronouncements & doctrines are bogus & totally-lacking in truth.

 

[percho]

matt 1:20?

 

[Covenanter]

Greek γενεὰ. That which has been created or generated. Mankind. Mankind will not die out before all of God's promises are fulfilled and all His prophecies come to pass.

Greek γενεὰ. That which has been created or generated. Mankind. Mankind will not die out before all of God's promises are fulfilled and all His prophecies come to pass.

Greek γενεὰ. That which has been created or generated. Mankind. Mankind will not die out before all of God's promises are fulfilled and all His prophecies come to pass.

THIS mankind ?????? Not to be confused with some other mankind?

 

[Covenanter]

Actually, I don't have to rationalize nor delve into the Greek too much at all. The simple FACT is, THE EVENTS HAVE NOT YET HAPPENED!

So, let's let the prets do all the research into the Greek as they try to figure out why their pronouncements & doctrines fell flat on their snoots.


""PRETERISM - PHONY AS A FORD CORVETTE!""

Look in Scripture to see which events of the Olivet prophecy are recorded.

 

[HankD]

THIS mankind ?????? Not to be confused with some other mankind?

The generation of mankind from the sack of Jerusalem until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

HankD

 

[kyredneck]

THIS mankind ?????? Not to be confused with some other mankind?

Lol. Excellent point.

 

[kyredneck]

THIS mankind ?????? Not to be confused with some other mankind?

22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
32 Verily I say unto you, This mankind shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lk 21

Minutes later:

35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this mankind. Mt 25

It's a travesty the violence that some will do to the word of God... all the while emphasizing Context! Context! Context! How phony can you be?

Context! Context! Context!

Context! Context! Context!

Context! Context! Context!

 

[asterisktom]

I believe preterism is false because the events preterists SAY have already occurred are completely absent from history. I await any preterist replies.

Well, this preterist is on vacation in Argentina. I will read through this thread and respond when I have time and if my next hotel has good WiFi.

But....completely absent from history? What kind of proof are you needing? Isn't God's Word enough? When Christ said words like "this generation " and "soon" and "quickly" do these all get discounted?

 

[Covenanter]

Let's look in Scripture to see which events of the Olivet prophecy are recorded in Scripture or history within 40 years.

Matthew 24:1-3 The destruction - took place in AD 70.

Matthew 24:4-8 Imposters, wars, famines, earthquakes - these occurred as recorded in Acts but without prophetic significance.

9-13 Persecutions & false prophets - recorded in Acts.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.​

Began in Acts 2:

5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.​

Recorded in Romans 16:

25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith— 27 to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.​

The end of what will come. back to the Disciples' question -

And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?​

The destruction would obviously bring about the end of the Old Covenant age. The New Covenant in Jesus' blood began with his death & resurrection, & is celebrated at every Communion supper.

15-22 Abomination of desolation, siege & great tribulation - Luke identifies the abomination as Jerusalem surrounded by armies the Roman eagle standards were an/the abomination. History (e.g. Josephus) records the events & that many fled when they saw the events - saw the signs Jesus had given. The specific great tribulation would occur as days of vengeance because of the rejection by the Jewish leaders of their Messiah. Other persecutions of the Jews subsequently occurred but the prophesied tribulation occurred in the run up to AD 70.

23-25 False Christs & prophets - recorded in Acts. The activities within the besieged city could/would have included great signs and wonders to deceive as they attempted in Samaria & Cyprus.

26-28 False claims of a secret coming. The real coming would be evidenced among other things by the gathering of the eagles - Roman standards.

Clearly the prophecy so far was fulfilled by AD 70.

To be continued.

 

[kyredneck]

38 Then certain of the scribes and Pharisees answered him, saying, Teacher, we would see a sign from thee.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous mankind seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given it but the sign of Jonah the prophet:
40 for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41 The men of Nineveh shall stand up in the judgment with this mankind, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, a greater than Jonah is here.
42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this mankind, and shall condemn it: for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
43 But the unclean spirit, when he is gone out of the man, passeth through waterless places, seeking rest, and findeth it not.
44 Then he saith, I will return into my house whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man becometh worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this evil mankind. Mt 12

1 And the Pharisees and Sadducees came, and trying him asked him to show them a sign from heaven.
2 But he answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the heaven is red.
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to-day: for the heaven is red and lowering. Ye know how to discern the face of the heaven; but ye cannot discern the signs of the times.
4 An evil and adulterous mankind seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of Jonah. And he left them, and departed. Mt 16

24 for as the lightning, when it lighteneth out of the one part under the heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall the Son of man be in his day.
25 But first must he suffer many things and be rejected of this mankind. Lu 17

16 But whereunto shall I liken this mankind? It is like unto children sitting in the marketplaces, who call unto their fellows
17 and say, We piped unto you, and ye did not dance; we wailed, and ye did not mourn.
18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a demon.
19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold, a gluttonous man and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners! And wisdom is justified by her works. Mt 11

....and you've the gall to broad brush preterists as phony?

 

[Covenanter]

Continued..

Matthew 24:29 ... powers of heaven shaken. These events were said by the prophets to occur during various judgments, e.g Isaiah 13 when Babylon would be destroyed by the Medes.

30 The sign of the Son of Man .... coming... This is the problem verse, but the context calls for it to be understood in terms of the destruction. Certainly the tribes of the land would have mourned as they saw the inevitable destruction Jesus had repeated warned them about. 'Land' & 'earth' are translation of the same word ge. See also Revelation 1:7 - an event that would occur shortly, indicating a date for John's visions before AD 70. They would 'see' him veiled by clouds by understanding the truth of his prophecies by what was happening all around them.

It is apparent from verses 35-44 that this 'coming' that in context would occur at the time of the destruction is NOT his final coming for resurrection & judgment. Note that Jesus was glorified by his miracles, & would also be glorified by the fulfilment of his prophecies.

e.g.
Luke 4:15, 5:25-26, 7:16, 13:17, John 2:11, & many others.

 

[HankD]

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

If all is fulfilled why do we still have undertakers, doctors, hospitals, cemeteries... ?

HankD

 

[Covenanter]

A little aside - Some prets say Jesus told some Pharisees that ALL THAT WAS WRITTEN against the Jews would fall upon THAT generation of jews. And it did, in 66-70 AD.

Good point. Matthew 23:

31 “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. 33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.​

Peter agrees - Acts 3:

22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.'​

Paul agrees - 1 Thessalonians 2:

14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they didfrom the Judeans, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men, 16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.​

Which John confirms in Revelation 18:

24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.​

The Holy Spirit, by Stephen, declared the unbelieving Jews 'uncircumcised.' Acts 7:51 They reacted according to Jesus' prophecy. Unbelieving Jews were no longer God's people - if unbelievers ever were.

BUT...

That was NOT the prophesied eschatological events! Those prophecies hadn't yet been written. What those events were, were the DAYS OF VENGEANCE Jesus had prophesied.

BUT...

A MUCH-GREATER punishment fell upon the Jews in 135-136 AD when hadrian kicked them outta their land, and outta the Roman empire, period. That was the beginning of their punishment for rejecting and killing Jesus. That punishment continued for over 1800 years, during which the Jews were persecuted and hated wherever they went. It culminated in the nazi holocaust, but soon as the nazis fell, God began to finally lift their punishment.

Exodus 20: 5 ....For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.​

The Jews who hated Jesus, together with their unrepentant children, grand- & great grandchildren, those born during the 40 years of God's longsuffering, did suffer the wrath, the vengeance of God in AD 70. There is no possibility of our holy & just God punishing further 60 or more generations, as Ezekiel 18:1-4 explains.

The Old Covenant & those who trusted in the Law, came to a complete & visible end. The New Covenant is in effect. What happened to surviving unbelieving Jews, (the dispersion) & those down the millennia & who claim to be Jews & take the name 'Israel' for their nation is not a subject of Bible prophecy.

Many thousands of Jews did indeed believe in their Messiah, as recorded in Acts. 144,000 were delivered from the great tribulation.

But they were rejected by the unbelievers & became full members of the church of the redeemed people of God. Galatians 3:

26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.​

We now see world events heading toward the fulfillment of the eschatological prophecies, and when they start, they'll come in rapid succession, as the great trib won't last the full 7 years lest all flesh perish.

The tech for the marka the beast has existed for about 15 years, and we see a US company offering to implant microchips in its employees for opening doors at their place of business, etc. But, long as they're a large number of Christians, such microchipping will be unacceptable to most, even among non-Christians. (Muslims already have prohibitions against such devices.)

Sorry, preterists; your pronouncements & doctrines are bogus & totally-lacking in truth.

Yeah - look to the newspapers etc for the fulfilment of prophecy. The Word of God can be twisted to fit whatever you want it to say.
NOT

 

[HankD]

Good point. Matthew 23:

31 “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. 33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.​

Peter agrees - Acts 3:

22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.'​

Paul agrees - 1 Thessalonians 2:

14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they didfrom the Judeans, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men, 16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.​

Which John confirms in Revelation 18:

24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.​

The Holy Spirit, by Stephen, declared the unbelieving Jews 'uncircumcised.' Acts 7:51 They reacted according to Jesus' prophecy. Unbelieving Jews were no longer God's people - if unbelievers ever were.

Exodus 20: 5 ....For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.​

The Jews who hated Jesus, together with their unrepentant children, grand- & great grandchildren, those born during the 40 years of God's longsuffering, did suffer the wrath, the vengeance of God in AD 70. There is no possibility of our holy & just God punishing further 60 or more generations, as Ezekiel 18:1-4 explains.

The Old Covenant & those who trusted in the Law, came to a complete & visible end. The New Covenant is in effect. What happened to surviving unbelieving Jews, (the dispersion) & those down the millennia & who claim to be Jews & take the name 'Israel' for their nation is not a subject of Bible prophecy.

Many thousands of Jews did indeed believe in their Messiah, as recorded in Acts. 144,000 were delivered from the great tribulation.

But they were rejected by the unbelievers & became full members of the church of the redeemed people of God. Galatians 3:

26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.​

Yeah - look to the newspapers etc for the fulfilment of prophecy. The Word of God can be twisted to fit whatever you want it to say.
NOT

Nothing of what you have reported here precludes the "Times of the Gentiles" which was to be for an undisclosed period of time.

Personally I do feel that the "days of vengeance" were fulfilled before the "Times of the Gentiles" or at least concurrently with its beginning and eclipsing its end.

HankD

 

[Yeshua1]

Well, this preterist is on vacation in Argentina. I will read through this thread and respond when I have time and if my next hotel has good WiFi.

But....completely absent from history? What kind of proof are you needing? Isn't God's Word enough? When Christ said words like "this generation " and "soon" and "quickly" do these all get discounted?

No, but when did the second coming and the physical resurrection happen again in history?

 

[Covenanter]

.... this generation .... ​

The generation of mankind from the sack of Jerusalem until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

HankD

This generation in context is used by the Lord Jesus in referring to those who opposed his ministry. You & others are trying to redefine it.

Nothing of what you have reported here precludes the "Times of the Gentiles" which was to be for an undisclosed period of time.

Personally I do feel that the "days of vengeance" were fulfilled before the "Times of the Gentiles" or at least concurrently with its beginning and eclipsing its end.

HankD

Times of the Gentiles .... Fulness of the Gentiles ... Paul repeatedly declared that with the Jews rejecting the Gospel, he would go to the Gentiles - he quotes Simeon & Isaiah 49:

6 Indeed He says,
‘It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant
To raise up the tribes of Jacob,
And to restore the preserved ones of Israel;
I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles,
That You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.’”​

The Gospel is going out to the Gentiles, and Jews are not excluded - all are welcomed by the Gospel. Does all Israel include the saved Gentiles - Paul insists there is no division, so when all Israel has been saved, including Gentiles, & the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled what is prophesied? Neither Jesus nor Paul teach a complex Dispensational scenario.

And John & Peter teach a NH&NE.

 

[HankD]

.... this generation .... ​

This generation in context is used by the Lord Jesus in referring to those who opposed his ministry. You & others are trying to redefine it.



Times of the Gentiles .... Fulness of the Gentiles ... Paul repeatedly declared that with the Jews rejecting the Gospel, he would go to the Gentiles - he quotes Simeon & Isaiah 49:

6 Indeed He says,
‘It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant
To raise up the tribes of Jacob,
And to restore the preserved ones of Israel;
I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles,
That You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.’”​

The Gospel is going out to the Gentiles, and Jews are not excluded - all are welcomed by the Gospel. Does all Israel include the saved Gentiles - Paul insists there is no division, so when all Israel has been saved, including Gentiles, & the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled what is prophesied? Neither Jesus nor Paul teach a complex Dispensational scenario.

And John & Peter teach a NH&NE.

It's not complex at all, Jerusalem will be walked all over by Gentiles until the Times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Then He will return shortly thereafter (visibly, bodily in the same manner He left).

Acts 1
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

HankD



HankD

 

[asterisktom]

The Greek for the two "shortlys" in Revelation as found in the KJV is "en tachos", which means "rapid movement or occurrence", not "soon", I am told by a neighbor proficient in Koine and modern Greek.. ("Tachycardia" means rapid heart beat.) That means, when the events begin, they'll come in rapid succession.

Your neighbor is not as proficient in Greek as you think. Look up the other uses of TACHEO and see if they can be forced into that meaning. 2 Timothy 4:9, for instance, would mean Paul is telling Timothy that he can take his time but- once he starts his return to Paul- to travel really quickly.

 

[Covenanter]

The Greek for the two "shortlys" in Revelation as found in the KJV is "en tachos", which means "rapid movement or occurrence", not "soon", I am told by a neighbor proficient in Koine and modern Greek.. ("Tachycardia" means rapid heart beat.) That means, when the events begin, they'll come in rapid succession. And again, it's OBVIOUS those events have NOT yet happened!

Now, does that mean the Scriptures are wrong? Of course not. It means that some people's own interpretations of them are wrong. So far, the Bible las a 1.000 batting average of its prophecies being fulfilled exactly, and I have no doubt this percentage will continue as the rest are fulfilled, in GOD'S timing.

Your neighbor is not as proficient in Greek as you think. Look up the other uses of TACHEO and see if they can be forced into that meaning. 2 Timothy 4:9, for instance, would mean Paul is telling Timothy that he can take his time but- once he starts his return to Paul- to travel really quickly.

Quoting Greek to make a point regarding definition/translation has the obvious danger - we have preferred translations that 'prove' our theology.

Even a Greek expert & professional translator - Professor John of Japan is not immune to that - in another thread, long ago.

I prefer to refer to Strong's numbering to see how words are used in context, & the range of possible meanings.

e.g. Tachos

 

[kyredneck]

I believe preterism is false because the events preterists SAY have already occurred are completely absent from history. I await any preterist replies.

The very OP is a false phony statement. Josephus, as an eye witness, recorded in detail much of what has already occurred.