Preterists Cannot Prove Their Assertions !

[Revmitchell]

However, if you understand that John is using symbolic language, you can easily see their fulfillment in the events of AD 68-70.

Great give us a play by play of the scroll and the bowl judgments and what events they symbolized?

 

[Revmitchell]

Compare the language of Matthew 24:29 with the language of Ezekiel 5:9, Isaiah 13:9-10, or Judges 5:19-20. Heavenly bodies often symbolize earthly rulers and governments. Clouds are often symbolic of judgment. As we've established, Jesus clearly described the destruction of the temple and of Jerusalem in AD 70. Since He went on to say "this generation will not pass away until all these things take place" (v. 34), He meant everything He had described from the beginning of the Discourse.

A number of things are symbolic of judgment, clouds are not one of them.

 

[Lodic]

A number of things are symbolic of judgment, clouds are not one of them.

My point is that prophecies are filled with symbolism. Jesus was just following suit, so to speak.

 

[Revmitchell]

My point is that prophecies are filled with symbolism. Jesus was just following suit, so to speak.

Symbolisms represent something literal.

 

[Lodic]

Great give us a play by play of the scroll and the bowl judgments and what events they symbolized?

My short answer is that the seals, trumpets, and bowl judgements seem very similar. It's possible that they describe the same events, but with increasing intensity as time goes by. Overall, I believe this describes the Jewish War and destruction of Jerusalem. Unfortunately, it don't have the time to give that a thorough answer today. It could make a great topic for a future discussion, though. What do you think?

 

[Revmitchell]

My short answer is that the seals, trumpets, and bowl judgements seem very similar. It's possible that they describe the same events, but with increasing intensity as time goes by. Overall, I believe this describes the Jewish War and destruction of Jerusalem. Unfortunately, it don't have the time to give that a thorough answer today. It could make a great topic for a future discussion, though. What do you think?

I think if you cannot do as I have asked you have problems defending your position.

 

[Lodic]

I think if you cannot do as I have asked you have problems defending your position.

I didn't say that I couldn't do it. I thought you wanted a detailed answer, which will take me a little more time than I have today. Maybe tomorrow during my lunch break.

 

[Revmitchell]

I didn't say that I couldn't do it. I thought you wanted a detailed answer, which will take me a little more time than I have today. Maybe tomorrow during my lunch break.

I look forward to it

 

[asterisktom]

A number of things are symbolic of judgment, clouds are not one of them.

Are you sure of that? Clouds most certainly are symbolic. All one has to do is go through occurrences of the word, esp. in the OT.

 

[Covenanter]

Great give us a play by play of the scroll and the bowl judgments and what events they symbolized?

In Rev. 6 Jesus is opening the scrolls & shows John the victorious one - himself, who will continue to conquer until the end of time. Compare with the horsemen & chariots of Zechariah & you will see these are angelic agents mobilising for the destruction of Jerusalem as Ezekiel described in Eze. 14.

21 ‘For this is what the Sovereign Lord says: how much worse will it be when I send against Jerusalem my four dreadful judgments – sword and famine and wild beasts and plague – to kill its men and their animals! 22 Yet there will be some survivors – sons and daughters who will be brought out of it. They will come to you, and when you see their conduct and their actions, you will be consoled regarding the disaster I have brought on Jerusalem – every disaster I have brought on it. 23 You will be consoled when you see their conduct and their actions, for you will know that I have done nothing in it without cause, declares the Sovereign Lord.’​

Those brought out are the 144,000, a perfect number of Israelites delivered up to the time of the escape from the doomed city.

The trumpets are final warnings before the destruction, & the bowls are the destruction.

 

[robycop3]

Jesus was telling His immediate audience that they were the generation who would see those signs, and so they did when the Roman army surrounded Jerusalem and with the events of the Jewish Wars from AD 68-70. If Jesus meant a future generation, He would have said "when they see all these things". We must take His literal meaning here.

Once again - a REALITY CHECK shows those events have NOT yet occurred ! There's just no getting around that FACT !

Yes, Jerusalem & the temple were destroyed just as Jesus said. But there was NO 'beast', NO marka the beast, NO great trib, and certainly NO physical, visible return of Jesus.

And notice Jesus went on speaking of Jerusalem, without saying it'd be rebuilt. He said it'd be trod underfoot by gentiles, AFTER it was destroyed. He didn't say it'd be rebuilt, but obviously it was, and is still being trod underfoot by gentiles at this very moment.

I highly recommend you chuck whatever material you have from Preston, Gentry, Alcazar, or other preterist quacks. They're nothing but hooey.

 

[robycop3]

One good reason - Jesus was following the example of the prophets, who often used symbolic language. Remember, Jesus was referring to Isaiah 13:10, which was a proclamation of judgment against Babylon. In Revelation 14 and 18, spiritual Babylon (Jerusalem) is "fallen, fallen". In Rev. 17, we see Israel is called "Babylon the Great".

Actually, the 2nd Babylon in Rev is Rome, Italy, & the RCC. Please read Rev. 17 very closely.

Consider Isaiah 19, an oracle against Egypt. If we were to take the prophecy literally, we would expect that God rides a cloud (vs. 1).

Who says He can't, or doesn't ???????????

Isaiah 24:19-23 has very similar language to what Jesus used. The prophet used symbolism to describe an impending judgment on Israel. Every prophecy of the Olivet Discourse was fulfilled to the letter.

No, much HASN'T yet been fulfilled. Again, I'm waiting for you to provide CREDIBLE EVIDENCE that the 'beast' & his sidekick the false prophet, have come & gone, that the great trib, the worst series of disasters in history, has already occurred, the mark of the beast has been issure, etc. etc.

Had they happened, you should be able to tell us who the beast & FP were, what the marka the beast looked like, tell us when all like in the seas died, when all green grass was burned up, etc. etc.

I'm hoping you have an "epiphany" & realize just how silly preterism is! There's not one quark of **PROOF/EVIDENCE/DOCUMENTATION** sustaining it!

 

[robycop3]

I really appreciate this type of discussion. You, RevMitchell, and the others have been very gracious even while we disagree. I appreciate that you know (and love, I suspect) history so well. For historical support, I would have to look at guys like Eusebius, who believed that the events leading up to AD 70 were in fulfillment of Christ's prophecies.

Simple fact is, Eusebius was wrong on several things, & this is one of them.

As you say, Jesus is 100% true, so the problem lies in the interpretation. The "genea" and "one day is as a thousand years" are weak arguments.

Why ? ? They're SCRIPTURE!

We can't change the meaning of "shortly", "soon", etc. Even Hebrews 1:1 shows that that generation was living in "these last days". You misunderstand what "last days" refers to, though. It's not about the literal end of the world, but about the end of the Old Covenant system.

The OC system was ended at the "Last Supper" when Jesus proclaimed the New Covenant.

Since Scripture doesn't make it clear that there is a gap where Peter quotes Joel's prophecy in Acts, and Peter himself doesn't allude to it, there is no gap. That simply doesn't make sense. Let's go with the simplest explanation here - Peter was quoting Joel to show that the entire prophecy was being fulfilled.

It makes PLENTY of sense, as the sun & moon were not partially obscured at that time.

It's ironic that the book titled "Revelation" is the hardest to understand. If you are looking for a literal fulfillment of the disasters described in the book, you will never see them. However, if you understand that John is using symbolic language, you can easily see their fulfillment in the events of AD 68-70.

OF COURSE they haven't been seen, by the simple fact that they HAVEN'T HAPPENED YET!

Since Scripture doesn't make it clear that there is a gap where Peter quotes Joel's prophecy in Acts, and Peter himself doesn't allude to it, there is no gap. That simply doesn't make sense. Let's go with the simplest explanation here - Peter was quoting Joel to show that the entire prophecy was being fulfilled.

The SIMPLE FACT is, the events of V19 haven't happened yet. Betcha can't find any credible evidence to the contrary!

 

[robycop3]

Compare the language of Matthew 24:29 with the language of Ezekiel 5:9, Isaiah 13:9-10, or Judges 5:19-20. Heavenly bodies often symbolize earthly rulers and governments. Clouds are often symbolic of judgment. As we've established, Jesus clearly described the destruction of the temple and of Jerusalem in AD 70. Since He went on to say "this generation will not pass away until all these things take place" (v. 34), He meant everything He had described from the beginning of the Discourse.

Again and again, I shall point out the FACT that those other events prophesied in the OD have NOT yet occurred!

Providing credible evidence those events HAVE already occurred is the ONLY thing that would sustain preterism! Nothing else will do!

 

[robycop3]

My point is that prophecies are filled with symbolism. Jesus was just following suit, so to speak.

So, while the parts of the OD I cited in the OP of this thread that HAVE cometa pass, did so LITERALLY, TO-THE-LETTER, we are to believe the rest WON'T cometa pass JUST-AS-LITERALLY ???????????

The writers of the pret garbage you subscribe to, have reduced "inconvenient" Scriptures to "symbolism" to try to cover the fact that they haven't yet been fulfilled. THAT WON'T WORK! Square peg, round hole!

You SHOULD be able to see that for yourself, as you're not stupid!

I shall REPEATEDLY keep reminding you of the simple truth that those events haven't occurred yet!

 

[asterisktom]

It's ironic that the book titled "Revelation" is the hardest to understand. If you are looking for a literal fulfillment of the disasters described in the book, you will never see them. However, if you understand that John is using symbolic language, you can easily see their fulfillment in the events of AD 68-70.

It is interesting that even the Reformers were confessedly baffled by Revelation. Martin Luther really pulled out treasures from Romans, but when it came to the last book he wrote,:

"About this book of the Revelation of John, I leave everyone free to hold his own ideas, and would bind no man to my opinion or judgment; I say what I feel. I miss more than one thing in this book, and this makes me hold it to be neither apostolic nor prophetic. First and foremost, the Apostles do not deal with visions, but prophesy in clear, plain words, as do Peter and Paul, and Christ in the Gospel. For it befits the apostolic office to speak of Christ and His deeds without figures and visions; but there is no prophet in the Old Testament, to say nothing of the New, who deals so out and out with visions and figures. And so I think of it almost as I do of the Fourth Book of Esdras, and can nohow detect that the Holy Spirit produced it."

Source:
Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: Luther on Revelation: "I feel an aversion to it, and to me this is sufficient reason for rejecting it."

I believe something similar is at work with many modern Christians. They have a mental cataract that refuses to acknowledge spiritual language of this book. They don't disown the book, as Luther did, but they turn it into the most confusing and frustrating book in the Bible. All because they cannot see that the thrust of the prophecies in Revelation are mostly limited geographically and temporally.

 

[Lodic]

Once again - a REALITY CHECK shows those events have NOT yet occurred ! There's just no getting around that FACT !

Yes, Jerusalem & the temple were destroyed just as Jesus said. But there was NO 'beast', NO marka the beast, NO great trib, and certainly NO physical, visible return of Jesus.

And notice Jesus went on speaking of Jerusalem, without saying it'd be rebuilt. He said it'd be trod underfoot by gentiles, AFTER it was destroyed. He didn't say it'd be rebuilt, but obviously it was, and is still being trod underfoot by gentiles at this very moment.

I highly recommend you chuck whatever material you have from Preston, Gentry, Alcazar, or other preterist quacks. They're nothing but hooey.

Yes, there was a Beast - Nero. Mark of the Beast wasn't a literal mark like a tatoo. The "great tribulation" was what they were going through. We do agree that there was no visible physical return of Jesus, but there was a "judgmental" return, where He used the Roman army to execute His judgment.

I don't remember questioning whether Jerusalem would ever be rebuilt. However, the Bible does not predict a 3rd Temple.

I'd never heard of Alcazar, but you can bet your boots I will check him (or her) out. Thanks for the "tip" . Talk about hooey - what about Harold Camping and his false prophecies? Or Hal Lindsey? Or Tim LaHaye? Those guys were way out in some fantasyland.

 

[Lodic]

Actually, the 2nd Babylon in Rev is Rome, Italy, & the RCC. Please read Rev. 17 very closely.



Who says He can't, or doesn't ???????????



No, much HASN'T yet been fulfilled. Again, I'm waiting for you to provide CREDIBLE EVIDENCE that the 'beast' & his sidekick the false prophet, have come & gone, that the great trib, the worst series of disasters in history, has already occurred, the mark of the beast has been issure, etc. etc.

Had they happened, you should be able to tell us who the beast & FP were, what the marka the beast looked like, tell us when all like in the seas died, when all green grass was burned up, etc. etc.

I'm hoping you have an "epiphany" & realize just how silly preterism is! There's not one quark of **PROOF/EVIDENCE/DOCUMENTATION** sustaining it!

Funny, I keep hoping you "dispy" guys will wake up and smell the coffee. I've told you several times that the "Beast" was Nero, and that Apostate Israel was the False Prophet. You keep looking for a literal interpretation of events that were meant to be interpreted symbolically.

 

[Lodic]

Simple fact is, Eusebius was wrong on several things, & this is one of them.



Why ? ? They're SCRIPTURE!



The OC system was ended at the "Last Supper" when Jesus proclaimed the New Covenant.



It makes PLENTY of sense, as the sun & moon were not partially obscured at that time.



OF COURSE they haven't been seen, by the simple fact that they HAVEN'T HAPPENED YET!




The SIMPLE FACT is, the events of V19 haven't happened yet. Betcha can't find any credible evidence to the contrary!

All Scripture is 100% true, but not all interpretations are accurate. I've explained before that while the New Covenant was instituted at the Last Supper, the Old Covenant system wasn't completely ended until the destruction of the Temple. Your interpretation is wrong basically because you don't understand how to properly understand prophecy.

 

[Lodic]

Again and again, I shall point out the FACT that those other events prophesied in the OD have NOT yet occurred!

Providing credible evidence those events HAVE already occurred is the ONLY thing that would sustain preterism! Nothing else will do!

You will need to remind me of what specific events you are talking about.