Preterists Cannot Prove Their Assertions !

[Lodic]

So, while the parts of the OD I cited in the OP of this thread that HAVE cometa pass, did so LITERALLY, TO-THE-LETTER, we are to believe the rest WON'T cometa pass JUST-AS-LITERALLY ???????????

The writers of the pret garbage you subscribe to, have reduced "inconvenient" Scriptures to "symbolism" to try to cover the fact that they haven't yet been fulfilled. THAT WON'T WORK! Square peg, round hole!

You SHOULD be able to see that for yourself, as you're not stupid!

I shall REPEATEDLY keep reminding you of the simple truth that those events haven't occurred yet!

As often as you keep reminding me of your view, I will respond with the truth of the preterist view. The dispensationalist view simply doesn't make sense.

 

[37818]

Jesus was telling His immediate audience that they were the generation who would see those signs, and so they did when the Roman army surrounded Jerusalem and with the events of the Jewish Wars from AD 68-70. If Jesus meant a future generation, He would have said "when they see all these things". We must take His literal meaning here.

Again, no. Jesus was telling His disciples those who see those signs, Matthrew 24:29, Matthew 24:32-34, ". . . when ye shall see all these things, . . ." That event has not literally happend yet, Matthew 24:29; Revelation 6:12.
The plual pronoun can refer to those beyond the immediate audiance. As in Matthew 3:11-12, ". . . he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: . . ." ; John 3:7, ". . . Ye must be born again. . . ."

 

[37818]

As often as you keep reminding me of your view, I will respond with the truth of the preterist view. The dispensationalist view simply doesn't make sense.

Specifically what in the dispensatonalist view are you referring to?

 

[Covenanter]

Actually, the 2nd Babylon in Rev is Rome, Italy, & the RCC. Please read Rev. 17 very closely.

Who says He can't, or doesn't ???????????

No, much HASN'T yet been fulfilled. Again, I'm waiting for you to provide CREDIBLE EVIDENCE that the 'beast' & his sidekick the false prophet, have come & gone, that the great trib, the worst series of disasters in history, has already occurred, the mark of the beast has been issure, etc. etc.

Had they happened, you should be able to tell us who the beast & FP were, what the marka the beast looked like, tell us when all like in the seas died, when all green grass was burned up, etc. etc.

I'm hoping you have an "epiphany" & realize just how silly preterism is! There's not one quark of **PROOF/EVIDENCE/DOCUMENTATION** sustaining it!

Your problem is that you are looking for evidence of WORLDWIDE CALAMITIES, whereas the prophecies are of LOCAL CALAMITIES concerning Jerusalem & Israel.

Note the range of meanings of Gk - GE

You are looking for secular encyclopaedia references to the various occurrences worldwide while rejecting the Scripture truth that these related to the AD 70 destruction. Josephus recorded many of them. Local events, on a population of perhaps one million allows a scale of slaughter as prophesied.

Note also that Rev. 6:15-17 was predicted by the Lord Jesus in connection with the children of those who mourned for him. Luke 23:27-31. By then they would be 30-40, converted or rebellious.

Darkness at midday was recorded during the crucifixion, as was an earthquake. Darkness & light certainly have a spiritual significance. Note also that the events of Mat, 24:4-14 are not specific signs of the end. They would, & did happen, & they have happened down the centuries to such an extent that the end has been predicted - wrongly, many times. However from 24:15 on, events relating to the destruction are specifically prophesied. Events that the believers noted, so they fled the city before its destruction.

No need to name names - corrupt priests & false prophets abounded.

 

[Lodic]

Again, no. Jesus was telling His disciples those who see those signs, Matthrew 24:29, Matthew 24:32-34, ". . . when ye shall see all these things, . . ." That event has not literally happend yet, Matthew 24:29; Revelation 6:12.
The plual pronoun can refer to those beyond the immediate audiance. As in Matthew 3:11-12, ". . . he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: . . ." ; John 3:7, ". . . Ye must be born again. . . ."

And again, you are mistaken, Brother. I'm not disputing whether "you" can refer to a plural audience, but whether it does in the context. In this case, Jesus is speaking to His immediate audience, not to an audience 2,000 years in the future. Remember, the books / epistles of the Bible were not written TO us, but they were written FOR us. In the example you quoted, Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born again. However, this was to teach us that everyone must be born again. Not the same thing as saying that "you will see these signs", because everyone can't possibly see the same signs - especially if they live in different eras.

 

[Lodic]

Specifically what in the dispensatonalist view are you referring to?

The rapture, the idea that God has separate plans for the Jews vs Gentiles, the view that we are living in the end times - I don't see Biblical support for any of those views. Having said that, I believe there are several dispensationalist views, but I think the things I've mentioned are common to each of them. Regardless, the Partial Preterist view is the only one that really makes sense to me.

 

[Lodic]

I didn't say that I couldn't do it. I thought you wanted a detailed answer, which will take me a little more time than I have today. Maybe tomorrow during my lunch break.

Hi, Rev. I don't really think I'll have the time it would take to give you a detailed explanation of how I view the seals, trumpets, and bowls. As I said earlier, the short answer is they all point to the AD 70 judgment on Jerusalem. If you are truly interested, I can recommend several sources where you can find detailed information. However, I also suspect that if I provide this detailed answer, you, Roby, or one of the others on this forum will come back with another "how about this or that?". Let's just leave it at we have different ways of interpreting the prophecies of the Olivet Discourse, Revelation, etc.

 

[robycop3]

Yes, there was a Beast - Nero.

With all due respect, Sir, I recently **PROVED** to you that Nero could NOT have been the beast! Whoever told you he was, is a bible ignoramus who doesn't know Scripture too well. Soon, I'm gonna open a new thread called "Your Hero Nero" whose OP will contain the Scriptures proving nero was NOT the beast. I suggest you drop that idea at once, cus it's FALSE!

Mark of the Beast wasn't a literal mark like a tatoo.

Yes, it will be !

The "great tribulation" was what they were going through.

No, it WASN'T! Jesus said it'd be the worst disaster to ever hit mankind, & there have been much-worse disasters hit the Jews alone, not to mention the rest of the world. Those events include their exile by Hadrian in 135-136 AD, & the nazi holocaust of 1933-1945. But the great trib will be worldwide. The sacking of J was a minor event compared to the great Tokyo earthquake of 1931, the two world wars, etc.

We do agree that there was no visible physical return of Jesus, but there was a "judgmental" return, where He used the Roman army to execute His judgment.

He was no more physically present then than He was when the Babylonians made the Jews captives.

I don't remember questioning whether Jerusalem would ever be rebuilt. However, the Bible does not predict a 3rd Temple.

The angel Gabriel, Paul & the revelator angel spoke of the 3rd temple. Gabe told Dan about the coming AOD, Paul mentioned the AOD in 2 Thess. 2, and the revelator went into more detail about it. We know it did NOT occur in the old temple. Not one quark of Jewish writings mentions it. The last defilement of the old temple was by Antiochus Epiphanes, anout 130 years before Jesus mentioned the AOD.

I'd never heard of Alcazar, but you can bet your boots I will check him (or her) out.

Luis Del Alcazar (1554-1613) was a Spanish jeezit who popularized preterism to protect his pope from being labeled the 'beast'.

Thanks for the "tip" . Talk about hooey - what about Harold Camping and his false prophecies? Or Hal Lindsey? Or Tim LaHaye? Those guys were way out in some fantasyland.

I never mentioned any of those dudes. (Or should I say, "duds"?) They all have made false prophecies.

But I don't see you including Preston, Gentry, Delmar, Sproul, Adams, etc. in your list! IMO, they're all crackpots. Their pret hooey is phony as a Chevy F-150.

 

[robycop3]

Funny, I keep hoping you "dispy" guys will wake up and smell the coffee. I've told you several times that the "Beast" was Nero, and that Apostate Israel was the False Prophet. You keep looking for a literal interpretation of events that were meant to be interpreted symbolically.

But what you told me was WRONG. I know better. I have many more years' studying these false doctrines than you do, and more-than-an-average knowledge of history. That "Nero = beast" stuff is garbage, as is "Israel = false prophet". As I said, Gentry, Preston, etc. are crackpots.

 

[robycop3]

All Scripture is 100% true, but not all interpretations are accurate. I've explained before that while the New Covenant was instituted at the Last Supper, the Old Covenant system wasn't completely ended until the destruction of the Temple. Your interpretation is wrong basically because you don't understand how to properly understand prophecy.

I understand it QUITE WELL! Jesus said J & the temple would be destroyed, & they WERE. Jesus said not one stone of the temple would be left upon another, and they're NOT! The empirical evidence is on the ground in Jerusalem! Jesus said there'd be war/rumor of war, and there WAS, and still IS!

And today's Orthodox Jews still live under the OC, rejecting the NC & Jesus as Messiah. That'll be changed in God's timing.

 

[robycop3]

You will need to remind me of what specific events you are talking about.

SURE!

The beast/antichrist & his sidekick the false prophet
marka the beast
great trib
return of Jesus
the beast & FP being cast alive into the lake of fire

 

[robycop3]

As often as you keep reminding me of your view, I will respond with the truth of the preterist view. The dispensationalist view simply doesn't make sense.

There's simply NO TRUTH to the pret view.

 

[Lodic]

With all due respect, Sir, I recently **PROVED** to you that Nero could NOT have been the beast! Whoever told you he was, is a bible ignoramus who doesn't know Scripture too well. Soon, I'm gonna open a new thread called "Your Hero Nero" whose OP will contain the Scriptures proving nero was NOT the beast. I suggest you drop that idea at once, cus it's FALSE!




Yes, it will be !


No, it WASN'T! Jesus said it'd be the worst disaster to ever hit mankind, & there have been much-worse disasters hit the Jews alone, not to mention the rest of the world. Those events include their exile by Hadrian in 135-136 AD, & the nazi holocaust of 1933-1945. But the great trib will be worldwide. The sacking of J was a minor event compared to the great Tokyo earthquake of 1931, the two world wars, etc.



He was no more physically present then than He was when the Babylonians made the Jews captives.



The angel Gabriel, Paul & the revelator angel spoke of the 3rd temple. Gabe told Dan about the coming AOD, Paul mentioned the AOD in 2 Thess. 2, and the revelator went into more detail about it. We know it did NOT occur in the old temple. Not one quark of Jewish writings mentions it. The last defilement of the old temple was by Antiochus Epiphanes, anout 130 years before Jesus mentioned the AOD.



Luis Del Alcazar (1554-1613) was a Spanish jeezit who popularized preterism to protect his pope from being labeled the 'beast'.



I never mentioned any of those dudes. (Or should I say, "duds"?) They all have made false prophecies.

But I don't see you including Preston, Gentry, Delmar, Sproul, Adams, etc. in your list! IMO, they're all crackpots. Their pret hooey is phony as a Chevy F-150.

All you've "proven" is that you don't believe Nero was "the Beast". We will just have to agree to disagree on that point.

The "great tribulation" was localized, not a worldwide catastrophe. Again, we will not come to an agreement on this point.

I never claimed Jesus was physically present in the judgments. He used the Roman armies to execute judgment.

Nobody in the whole Bible mentions a 3rd temple. There are only 2 temples in Scripture - Solomon's temple and the Herodian temple. Herod's temple was still standing in John's vision in Revelation.

Preterism was an established teaching from Christianity's beginning. Whether Alcazar popularized it or just made it well-known, I couldn't say. OTOH, Dispensationalism was popularized by Darby (1830) and later by Scofield.

I have the highest regard for the proponents of Preterism. My favorites are DeMar, Gentry, and Sproul. I've read some of Preston, but don't agree with all he has to say, since he is a Full Preterist.

 

[Lodic]

There's simply NO TRUTH to the pret view.

I kinda gathered that was your opinion on the matter .

 

[robycop3]

All you've "proven" is that you don't believe Nero was "the Beast". We will just have to agree to disagree on that point.

You're not actually disagreeing with me, but with SCRIPTURE & HISTORY. I'll start that new thread on Nero in a coupla days, after I dig up my old article.

The "great tribulation" was localized, not a worldwide catastrophe. Again, we will not come to an agreement on this point.

No, we won't, cuz it HASN'T HAPPENED YET.

I never claimed Jesus was physically present in the judgments. He used the Roman armies to execute judgment.

Then, He hasn't yet returned, right?

Nobody in the whole Bible mentions a 3rd temple. There are only 2 temples in Scripture - Solomon's temple and the Herodian temple. Herod's temple was still standing in John's vision in Revelation.

No, it wasn't. The Rev wasn't given til during the reign of Domitian, 90-96 AD.

Preterism was an established teaching from Christianity's beginning. Whether Alcazar popularized it or just made it well-known, I couldn't say. OTOH, Dispensationalism was popularized by Darby (1830) and later by Scofield.

Actually, futurism is separate from "dispy" And that was the view of the earliest Christians, while preterism was among the early false doctrines men invented.

I have the highest regard for the proponents of Preterism. My favorites are DeMar, Gentry, and Sproul. I've read some of Preston, but don't agree with all he has to say, since he is a Full Preterist.

They're all quacks, about as truthful as Manafort was in the Mueller investigation. All they're interested in is selling boox & making $$$.

 

[Lodic]

Especially for @Revmitchell and @robycop3 - Since I was asked about the seals, trumpets, and bowls in Revelation, I am providing the following material. This was provided by our good friend @kyredneck :
The Covenant Judgments of Revelation
By Duncan McKenzie, Ph.D.
2006

Four sets of seven:

18 And if ye will not yet for these things hearken unto me, then I will chastise you seven times more for your sins.
21 And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me, I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.
24 then will I also walk contrary unto you; and I will smite you, even I, seven times for your sins.
28 then I will walk contrary unto you in wrath; and I also will chastise you seven times for your sins. Lev 26

1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures saying as with a voice of thunder, Come. Rev 6
6 And the seven angels that had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound. Rev 8
4 And when the seven thunders uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying, Seal up the things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not. Rev 10
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple, saying to the seven angels, Go ye, and pour out the seven bowls of the wrath of God into the earth. Rev 16

 

[Lodic]

You're not actually disagreeing with me, but with SCRIPTURE & HISTORY. I'll start that new thread on Nero in a coupla days, after I dig up my old article.



No, we won't, cuz it HASN'T HAPPENED YET.


Then, He hasn't yet returned, right?


No, it wasn't. The Rev wasn't given til during the reign of Domitian, 90-96 AD.


Actually, futurism is separate from "dispy" And that was the view of the earliest Christians, while preterism was among the early false doctrines men invented.



They're all quacks, about as truthful as Manafort was in the Mueller investigation. All they're interested in is selling boox & making $$$.

I would never disagree with Scriptures, but I most certainly disagree with incorrect interpretations of them.

Great Trib - Yes, it happened from AD 66-70. We will not agree on this.

Agreed, we are still awaiting the 2nd Coming of Christ. (That is the main point where I disagree with Full Preterism.)

Gentry's "Before Jerusalem Fell" makes a very strong case for the early writing of Revelation - in the late 60s.

I believe the futurist view was virtually unknown before the Council of Nicea (AD 325), but I agree that a few believers had this view. Preterism predates the futurist view.

It would be pretty easy to make a case that "futurists" are in it for the money.

 

[Lodic]

I understand it QUITE WELL! Jesus said J & the temple would be destroyed, & they WERE. Jesus said not one stone of the temple would be left upon another, and they're NOT! The empirical evidence is on the ground in Jerusalem! Jesus said there'd be war/rumor of war, and there WAS, and still IS!

And today's Orthodox Jews still live under the OC, rejecting the NC & Jesus as Messiah. That'll be changed in God's timing.

To a point, I agree. By definition, Orthodox Jews are under the OC. However, they no longer have the Temple, and no sacrifices. Regarding wars and rumors of wars, we have to look at the context. The wars He spoke of was during the Pax Romana. If we look at history, we've had very few periods of peace since the time of Christ (maybe earlier).

 

[Lodic]

SURE!

The beast/antichrist & his sidekick the false prophet
marka the beast
great trib
return of Jesus
the beast & FP being cast alive into the lake of fire

You don't take any of the evidence that I present as "credible" because you are looking for something entirely different. We need to be careful not to interpret fulfilled prophecy as if it were still unfilled. That's the mistake Jews make - still looking for the Messiah when He came 2,000 years ago. The key to understanding the mysteries of Revelation is from the time statements (soon, near, at hand) and from the symbolic language. Many of the figures are not meant to be taken literally (metaphors, similes, hyperbole, etc.)

We've been discussing the Beast and the Great Tribulation, but you disagree with everything I've said. In Revelation 7:3, we see that God seals His bond-servants on their foreheads. The Mark of the Beast was Satan's counterfeit mark. Do you believe God's servants will receive a literal mark in the future? If not, why would you believe the Mark of the Beast will be literal? This is about those Jews who aligned themselves with the Old Covenant system who were "marked" for access into the temple. (For further reading, see "Last Days Madness" by Gary DeMar, page 250.)

 

[Lodic]

So, please provide some evidence, or do the Christian thing & admit you were deceived by those quacks Preston, Gentry, Alcazar, etc. & that preterism is false!

I meant to reply to this comment earlier. Brother Roby, if I truly thought that Preterism was false, I would repent and run from it. Discerning truth from error is far more important than hanging on to any doctrine or view because of stubborn pride. I left the premillennial dispensationalist / futurist view many years ago because I became convinced of the truth of the preterist view. I stand by this view because I believe it to be true, not because it fascinates me or because I like to argue.