Preterists Cannot Prove Their Assertions !

[robycop3]

If it hadn't happened, I would agree with you.

Can you prove it HAS? I've repeatedly asked for PROOF, & have seen NONE.

 

[Lodic]

There's NO proof for the prwterist view. I've asked hundreds of prets for such proof, & all they've presented (if anything at all) is opinion, guesswork, tall tales, & Scripture-twisting. Since they can't present any proof, they hide behind scripture-twisting.

Seems to be a case of "the pot calling the kettle black". Talk about twisting Scripture, the Futurist view is 100% conjecture and misunderstanding prophecy.

Please take my advice & believe Scripture LITERALLY AS POSSIBLE. I fully realize there's SOME symbolism, similes, & metaphors in Scripture, but they always represent something LITERAL.

Of course symbolic passages point to something literal. There would be no point to them if they didn't. What you fail to see here is how this symbolic language points to the literal destruction of Jerusalem.

God meant His word to be an ABSOLUTE. We can't bend it to fit OUR agendas & man-made doctrines. It means what it says & says what it means. And the central events of Scripture are Jesus' coming as a man, and His future return, in all His power & glory. Also, it revolves around the Israelis, God's "peculiar" people.

We agree that the Scriptures are not subject to "private interpretation" per 2 Peter 1:20-21. Yet, "futurists" have badly distorted events that have already happened as if they were meant for our day. If you read prophecy without the "futurist" blinders on, you will be amazed by what you learn.

 

[Lodic]

Can you prove it HAS? I've repeatedly asked for PROOF, & have seen NONE.

I've given you proof a dozen times. You are determined not to see it.

 

[robycop3]

1 Thess. 4:17 is commonly used to prove the rapture. In context, vs. 13-18 are about those who died in Christ, and the resurrection body. In vs. 16, we see that the Lord will descend from Heaven. "Descend" was used to describe the priest's descent from the Temple to announce that atonement had been completed. The idea of being "caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" (vs. 17) is a picture of God's elect being brought into God's presence in the Holy of Holies. This describes the raising of those who are in Christ, not "the rapture". "The air" in this verse refers to the spiritual realm (compare Eph. 2:2).

The passage from Matt. 24:29-31 is symbolic language pointing to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 66-70. Heavenly bodies often symbolize earthly rulers and governments.

Jew / Gentile distinction - Paul often used the phrase "to the Jew first, and also to the Greek". In the history of redemption, salvation was brought to Israel first, as you well know. However, the Jews rejected Christ when they cried out "crucify Him". The Gentiles were grafted in. Thus, Galatians 6:16 actually goes to prove my point. In vs. 15, we read that whether one is circumcised or not makes no difference. The only thing that counts is to be a new creation. Thus, all who are new creations in Christ have become the true Israel of God. There is only one "people of God". Have you ever considered that, by definition, there were no Jews before Jacob was changed to Israel. Yet, even the Jews look back to Father Abraham, who was actually a Gentile. What is special about Abraham? He is known for his faith. We can see that we are one people through our faith.

That brings us to Rev. 21:9-14. Again, this passage goes more to prove my point. The gates of the Heavenly Jerusalem are the 12 tribes of Israel, and the foundation stones are the 12 apostles. The "true Israel" are those in Christ. The parable of the Landowner (Matt. 33-46) illustrates that the Kingdom of God was taken away from the nation of Israel and given to spiritual Israel.

Actually, God had pre-selected Abe to be the father of His "peculiar" people, whose jobs it was to present the knowledge of Him to the world, to record His word in writing, and to supply a human mother to bear His Son so he could live as a man.

Now, not even Abe had PERFECT faith. He didn't FULLY believe God when He told Abe he'd have a son at an advanced age, especially since Sarah had likely gone thru menopause years before. (A little aside - God likely blessed the kids Abe later fathered with Keturah, his 2nd wife, after Sarah died, as he blessed Ishmael at Abe's request.).

But I disagree entirely with your "take" of Matt. 24:29-31. Jesus was describing a cosmological disturbance that'll affect the earth, during which He will return. The partial obscuring of the sun & moon's light was also prophesied by Joel, along with fire that'll contribute to the haze.And again, those Scriptures disprove the pret guess that the great trib has already occurred, as jesus said this will occur IMMEDIATELY AFTER the trib. No getting around that Scripture! Trying to hide behind a "symbolism' guess for it WON'T WORK! the rest of that Discourse is literal, and so are those verses! (We all know "falling stars" are meteors!)

 

[Covenanter]

True, but we cannot spiritualize all of the OT prophecies of the Second Coming in order to have AD 70 be its realization!

Neither should we ignore the symbolism to make it literal to fit the futurist interpretation.

Can you prove it HAS? I've repeatedly asked for PROOF, & have seen NONE.

The essential proof is that Jesus declared that he was the fulfilment of old covenant prophecy. Many thousands of Jews from Jerusalem and the nations responded to the new covenant Gospel.

Jesus' prophecies concerning the judgment of unbelieving Israel were fulfilled.

Now we look for his final coming for resurrection and judgment. We are living as servants of our victorious Saviour in a world populated by sinners for whom we have the Gospel.

There are no unfulfilled prophecies regarding the present millennium apart from Satanic rebellion that many believers are living and dying through.

Jesus' final prophetic words for us are at the end of his Olivet prophecy. "Watch and pray, you don't know when he is coming."

All this futuristic speculation is a serious distraction from Christian living.

 

[Yeshua1]

1 Thess. 4:17 is commonly used to prove the rapture. In context, vs. 13-18 are about those who died in Christ, and the resurrection body. In vs. 16, we see that the Lord will descend from Heaven. "Descend" was used to describe the priest's descent from the Temple to announce that atonement had been completed. The idea of being "caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" (vs. 17) is a picture of God's elect being brought into God's presence in the Holy of Holies. This describes the raising of those who are in Christ, not "the rapture". "The air" in this verse refers to the spiritual realm (compare Eph. 2:2).

The passage from Matt. 24:29-31 is symbolic language pointing to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 66-70. Heavenly bodies often symbolize earthly rulers and governments.

Jew / Gentile distinction - Paul often used the phrase "to the Jew first, and also to the Greek". In the history of redemption, salvation was brought to Israel first, as you well know. However, the Jews rejected Christ when they cried out "crucify Him". The Gentiles were grafted in. Thus, Galatians 6:16 actually goes to prove my point. In vs. 15, we read that whether one is circumcised or not makes no difference. The only thing that counts is to be a new creation. Thus, all who are new creations in Christ have become the true Israel of God. There is only one "people of God". Have you ever considered that, by definition, there were no Jews before Jacob was changed to Israel? Yet, even the Jews look back to Father Abraham, who was actually a Gentile. What is special about Abraham? He is known for his faith. We can see that we are one people through our faith.

That brings us to Rev. 21:9-14. Again, this passage goes more to prove my point. The gates of the Heavenly Jerusalem are the 12 tribes of Israel, and the foundation stones are the 12 apostles. The "true Israel" are those in Christ. The parable of the Landowner (Matt. 33-46) illustrates that the Kingdom of God was taken away from the nation of Israel and given to spiritual Israel.

First resurrection are those in Christ at Second coming, while Second one is for lost at GWT!

 

[robycop3]

Seems to be a case of "the pot calling the kettle black". Talk about twisting Scripture, the Futurist view is 100% conjecture and misunderstanding prophecy.

No, it's believing Scripture at face value.

Of course symbolic passages point to something literal. There would be no point to them if they didn't. What you fail to see here is how this symbolic language points to the literal destruction of Jerusalem.

Jesus said J would be destroyed in Luke 21. daniel has already prophesied the Roman destruction as well. Nothing symbolic about it.

We agree that the Scriptures are not subject to "private interpretation" per 2 Peter 1:20-21. Yet, "futurists" have badly distorted events that have already happened as if they were meant for our day. If you read prophecy without the "futurist" blinders on, you will be amazed by what you learn.

One little prob...THOSE EVENTS HAVE NOT YET HAPPENED ! ! No getting by that FACT!

You just CANNOT supply any proof!

And again, Jesus' "immediately after" in Matt. 24 SHOULD end any guesswork that the great trib has already occurred!

 

[robycop3]

I've given you proof a dozen times. You are determined not to see it.

No; all you've presented is the opinion, imagination, & guesswork of some pret quack authors...no TRUE evidence!

 

[robycop3]

The essential proof is that Jesus declared that he was the fulfilment of old covenant prophecy. Many thousands of Jews from Jerusalem and the nations responded to the new covenant Gospel.

Jesus' prophecies concerning the judgment of unbelieving Israel were fulfilled.

Now we look for his final coming for resurrection and judgment. We are living as servants of our victorious Saviour in a world populated by sinners for whom we have the Gospel.

There are no unfulfilled prophecies regarding the present millennium apart from Satanic rebellion that many believers are living and dying through.

Jesus' final prophetic words for us are at the end of his Olivet prophecy. "Watch and pray, you don't know when he is coming."

All this futuristic speculation is a serious distraction from Christian living.

So, you, too, deny Jesus' plain words?

 

[robycop3]

Futurists Cannot Prove Their Assertions.

Actually, we CAN, based upon the laws of probability. If I throw a baseball at a glass window, the probability is the ball will bust that window, before the ball reaches it. by the same token, some of the Olivet discourse has cometa pass literally, as written, and, seeing as its speaker was Jesus, the probability is certain that the rest will cometa pass just as He spoke it.


It's QUITE OBVIOUS prets can't prove a thing they say in favor of their myth!

 

[Lodic]

Actually, God had pre-selected Abe to be the father of His "peculiar" people, whose jobs it was to present the knowledge of Him to the world, to record His word in writing, and to supply a human mother to bear His Son so he could live as a man.

Now, not even Abe had PERFECT faith. He didn't FULLY believe God when He told Abe he'd have a son at an advanced age, especially since Sarah had likely gone thru menopause years before. (A little aside - God likely blessed the kids Abe later fathered with Keturah, his 2nd wife, after Sarah died, as he blessed Ishmael at Abe's request.).

But I disagree entirely with your "take" of Matt. 24:29-31. Jesus was describing a cosmological disturbance that'll affect the earth, during which He will return. The partial obscuring of the sun & moon's light was also prophesied by Joel, along with fire that'll contribute to the haze.And again, those Scriptures disprove the pret guess that the great trib has already occurred, as jesus said this will occur IMMEDIATELY AFTER the trib. No getting around that Scripture! Trying to hide behind a "symbolism' guess for it WON'T WORK! the rest of that Discourse is literal, and so are those verses! (We all know "falling stars" are meteors!)

Would the sun and moon being obscured really be so unusual that the prophets had to write that down? While they don't happen every day, it's not all that rare either. Meteors are definitely not rare, and not worthy of a prophet making special mention of them. Therefore, I must respectfully disagree.
We've gone around and around about how the tribulation had already occurred. I don't think either of us have said anything for a while that we haven't already said in the course of this discussion. You will keep going back to the "literal end-of-the-world" argument, and I will keep coming back with the "symbolic-of-the-destruction-of-Jerusalem" argument.

 

[Yeshua1]

Actually, God had pre-selected Abe to be the father of His "peculiar" people, whose jobs it was to present the knowledge of Him to the world, to record His word in writing, and to supply a human mother to bear His Son so he could live as a man.

Now, not even Abe had PERFECT faith. He didn't FULLY believe God when He told Abe he'd have a son at an advanced age, especially since Sarah had likely gone thru menopause years before. (A little aside - God likely blessed the kids Abe later fathered with Keturah, his 2nd wife, after Sarah died, as he blessed Ishmael at Abe's request.).

But I disagree entirely with your "take" of Matt. 24:29-31. Jesus was describing a cosmological disturbance that'll affect the earth, during which He will return. The partial obscuring of the sun & moon's light was also prophesied by Joel, along with fire that'll contribute to the haze.And again, those Scriptures disprove the pret guess that the great trib has already occurred, as jesus said this will occur IMMEDIATELY AFTER the trib. No getting around that Scripture! Trying to hide behind a "symbolism' guess for it WON'T WORK! the rest of that Discourse is literal, and so are those verses! (We all know "falling stars" are meteors!)

The Second Coming event ends history as we now know it, as all things will then be under the reign of Christ directly!

 

[Yeshua1]

Would the sun and moon being obscured really be so unusual that the prophets had to write that down? While they don't happen every day, it's not all that rare either. Meteors are definitely not rare, and not worthy of a prophet making special mention of them. Therefore, I must respectfully disagree.
We've gone around and around about how the tribulation had already occurred. I don't think either of us have said anything for a while that we haven't already said in the course of this discussion. You will keep going back to the "literal end-of-the-world" argument, and I will keep coming back with the "symbolic-of-the-destruction-of-Jerusalem" argument.

The physical resurrection of those alive and died in Christ shall be happening, and the entire earth shall be affected!

 

[Lodic]

First resurrection are those in Christ at Second coming, while Second one is for lost at GWT!

I think I may have to agree with you there. I definitely see the GWT as a future event.

 

[Yeshua1]

I've given you proof a dozen times. You are determined not to see it.

When did the dead and alive in Christ come out of their graves resurrected then?

 

[robycop3]

Oops. I accidentally put all my responses in the text of your original message. You will need to expand the thread above to see them.

Looking forward to the "Nero" thread. FYI - I'm only on the Baptist Board during the week, so I may not reply right away after it's posted.

Still seeking the shelter of pret "symbolism".,eh? Many prets of the past dropped that myth when modern Israel was formed & their "symbolic" Jewish nation went "POOF!" But the myth didn't die. New quacks such as Preston, DelMar, & Gentry arose to write more bunk. They 've found a cash cow they intend to milk, long as gullible people buy their boox. it's all phony as a Ford Corvette.

 

[Yeshua1]

Still seeking the shelter of pret "symbolism".,eh? Many prets of the past dropped that myth when modern Israel was formed & their "symbolic" Jewish nation went "POOF!" But the myth didn't die. New quacks such as Preston, DelMar, & Gentry arose to write more bunk. They 've found a cash cow they intend to milk, long as gullible people buy their boox. it's all phony as a Ford Corvette.

All they have to do is to show when in history the resurrection of the alive and dead in Christ happened!

 

[37818]

There is a 3rd possibility. This prophecy has been fulfilled, but you don't recognize it's fulfillment because you are looking for something else. As an old saying goes, "to a hammer, everything looks like a nail". To a "futurist", everything has to be literal, even when the original authors intended a symbolic meaning, and the original audiences understood the meanings to be symbolic. The 1st Century Christians were very familiar with Jewish symbolism of the OT.

No. Either the so called third possibility is what is true, in which case it should be explicitly in evidence, or only the futurist position is the only possihle correct understanding in order for it to be true.

Matthew 24:29-31 has not literally happened as yet. That is the fact. Please present your hermeneutic in a clear irrefutable way.

 

[Lodic]

No, it's believing Scripture at face value.

Jesus said J would be destroyed in Luke 21. daniel has already prophesied the Roman destruction as well. Nothing symbolic about it.




One little prob...THOSE EVENTS HAVE NOT YET HAPPENED ! ! No getting by that FACT!

You just CANNOT supply any proof!

And again, Jesus' "immediately after" in Matt. 24 SHOULD end any guesswork that the great trib has already occurred!

No, it's believing Scripture at face value.

Taking Scripture at face value is not the same as taking all Scripture with the literal view you hold to. Earlier you acknowledged that Scripture does use symbolism, which always points to something literal. On that basis, I am taking Scripture at their "sensus literalis" value - according to the literal meaning of the passage. As a reminder, that is looking at whether it is historical, poetic, etc.

You stated that Jesus said J would be destroyed in Luke 21. daniel has already prophesied the Roman destruction as well. Nothing symbolic about it. Let's take a closer look at Luke 21. V. 20 - When Jerusalem is surrounded by armies, her desolation (not destruction) is near. If we take what Jesus said literally, the ones who need to flee are in Judea; those in the city need to split, etc. They are in danger of falling by the sword. This describes 1st century Jerusalem to a "T", of course. I know you actually agree with me on this point.

Starting in vs. 25, Jesus said there will be signs in the sun, moon, and stars. This clearly states that He is speaking symbolically from that point. You will either have to remind me of specifically where Daniel speaks of the Roman destruction.

 

[Lodic]

No; all you've presented is the opinion, imagination, & guesswork of some pret quack authors...no TRUE evidence!

To the contrary, you are only parroting the same old "end of the world" scenario that has been around for years. Not a shred of evidence for these claims.