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Prevenient Grace - Catholic View
- Thread starter LaGrange
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Yes, He does. Whoever believes in Jesus Christ will be the ones He saves. Whoever is in Christ. Whoever believes the Father sent Jesus.
If you want to stake your claim from the foundation of the world, believe on Him today. Because today is the day of salvation.
But if God decides someone will be saved before that person exists and believes in Christ, that person is not saved by Jesus' blood, but by decree. That makes a second way of salvation, don't you think? And if a second way is available, the gospel as given to us isn't necessary--nor the death of the son of God.
Something doesn't add up.
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
No, your making an unwarranted conclusion there.
God determined to save certain people before time began, just as Paul the apostle speaks of in regard to all who are saved by God.
We are saved in our time, at the proper time, but the plan was laid at the beginning of all things before time began for US individually who would become His church. verse 9 is speaking of individual persons.
2 Timothy 1
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God,
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
God determined to save out of lost humanity a remnant unto Himself for his own glory!
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
and the remnant is not random, God calls us as individuals.
Romans 8, WHOM HE FOREKNEW would be individual persons, to say it is anything else is a lie.
It would make no sense to say God just foreknew He would have a church made up of priorly unknown to Him persons.
But people fight this a lot dont they...
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
individual persons God loved or hated. Sure individuals form a whole national group that God hated or loved generally like Israel versus the other nations, but we are saved as individual persons, we are not saved due to belonging to an ethnic national group. Many Israelites God killed as they were not pleasing to Him because they were not called as Isaac was, Romans 9:7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”, because Isaac was a child of God's promise to Abraham, a miraculous work of God. And we then are this as Isaac was, individually miraculously birthed, born again according to God's promise, so then children of the promise God made to Abraham about his descendants, born according to the Spirit (born again of God).
Galatians 4
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.
Romans 10
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”
Galatians 4
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.
Romans 10
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”
Predestination and Election sweet news to those who have been redeemed!
Sorry according to Calvinism its just like being an ethnic group.
The very thing that makes racism awful is the drive behind Calvinism, A person is mistreated for their "color" skin which they have no control or choice, You were born with a holy spiritual skin.
It doesn't matter what you do if you have this holy skin you will be saved and those who do not have it are inferior reprobates.
Not based on the content of their character but the status of being elect or not.
The guy who thinks he's elect does evil thinks he gets a free pass, because it doesn't bank on his behaving good or evil, it all banks on his being chosen, delusion or not.
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
Regardless, believers will get saved, but they will pay a price for evil behaviors.
2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
Everything we do is recorded down in books.
unbelievers are judged by God
Revelation 20
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
I am right now reading a book about when the Catholics and some Evangelicals signed their common agreement back in mid 90's, and Rome far from Pauline Justification still!
"Regardless, "
Regardless of being the Christian version of nazis and spiritual racists?
See I take it as a passive insult to God. You actually think God is evil? Of course call it "GOOD" like a North Korean might say his dictator is "good". Gun to the head type of good, where working with lack of trust of God does not permit self honesty.
His mercy account can't afford for you to question anything. Why is sufficiently answered by a tyrant's gun to your head.
Who tricked you into believing God was evil. You allowed for pessimism to draw God for you rather than actual faith.
"they will pay a price for evil behaviors"
Price according to who? My currency isn't suffering, and sinning is not a perk.
The whole point of forgiveness. In Jesus, what Jesus is putting up, You do not owe anyone anything.
Its not a Court room perspective. At best classroom at worst hospital. Jesus did not come for the righteous.
Mark 2
17When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
It might be you making the unwarranted conclusion about what it means for something to be given to us before time began (and before we existed).
For instance, if your great-great-grandfather bequeathed an inheritance to his great-great-grandchildren, to be given to them when they reach their 21st birthday, you, being older than 21, would have received such an inheritance. But if your g-g-grandfather died before your parents even got married, he wouldn't have bequeathed anything to you directly, just through your parents. That inheritance would apply even if you were adopted, presumably. So the scenario could work similarly with God--that all who are adopted into His family (all who are "in Christ") receive the grace purposed for the family (not necessarily the individuals) that would be before the world began, however many there are in the family. Luk 18:8 KJV] 8... "Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" If Jesus doesn't know whether He shall find faith on the earth, how can He know who would be saved from that time period even before the world began?
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
Paul agrees with me that they will pay a price for how the build on the foundation which is Christ's work in saving us. 1 Corinthians 3
The price is they will scarcely be saved as through fire, with great loss of rewards, Jesus also says the same thing, those who have more, will get more, those who have not, even what they have will be taken from them and given to those who have more.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
Luke 19
15 “And so it was that when he returned, having received the kingdom, he then commanded these servants, to whom he had given the money, to be called to him, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. 16 Then came the first, saying, ‘Master, your mina has earned ten minas.’ 17 And he said to him, ‘Well done, good servant; because you were faithful in a very little, have authority over ten cities.’ 18 And the second came, saying, ‘Master, your mina has earned five minas.’ 19 Likewise he said to him, ‘You also be over five cities.’
20 “Then another came, saying, ‘Master, here is your mina, which I have kept put away in a handkerchief. 21 For I feared you, because you are an austere man. You collect what you did not deposit, and reap what you did not sow.’ 22 And he said to him, ‘Out of your own mouth I will judge you, you wicked servant. You knew that I was an austere man, collecting what I did not deposit and reaping what I did not sow. 23 Why then did you not put my money in the bank, that at my coming I might have collected it with interest?’
24 “And he said to those who stood by, ‘Take the mina from him, and give it to him who has ten minas.’
25 (But they said to him, ‘Master, he has ten minas.’)
26 ‘For I say to you, that to everyone who has will be given; and from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.
27 But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.’ ”
15 “And so it was that when he returned, having received the kingdom, he then commanded these servants, to whom he had given the money, to be called to him, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. 16 Then came the first, saying, ‘Master, your mina has earned ten minas.’ 17 And he said to him, ‘Well done, good servant; because you were faithful in a very little, have authority over ten cities.’ 18 And the second came, saying, ‘Master, your mina has earned five minas.’ 19 Likewise he said to him, ‘You also be over five cities.’
20 “Then another came, saying, ‘Master, here is your mina, which I have kept put away in a handkerchief. 21 For I feared you, because you are an austere man. You collect what you did not deposit, and reap what you did not sow.’ 22 And he said to him, ‘Out of your own mouth I will judge you, you wicked servant. You knew that I was an austere man, collecting what I did not deposit and reaping what I did not sow. 23 Why then did you not put my money in the bank, that at my coming I might have collected it with interest?’
24 “And he said to those who stood by, ‘Take the mina from him, and give it to him who has ten minas.’
25 (But they said to him, ‘Master, he has ten minas.’)
26 ‘For I say to you, that to everyone who has will be given; and from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.
27 But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.’ ”
There are 100s of verses on rendering reward and punishment, You still don't get it.
The issue is YOUR INSULT AGAINST GOD. Your pessimistic low view of God. How gullible and easy you were convinced he was a tyrant.
He is not actually and provably good, he is only "North Korean gun to your head good".
You can't DEMONSTRATE God to be GOOD. When push comes to shove, well the rape of children in his glory is a mystery.
How he from the foundation of creation by random choice or divine whim decided to hate people unconditionally and love others unconditionally.
You cannot reflect that character on anyone and say that person is good UNLIKE Jesus Christ.
If we see anyone exhibiting Christlike behavior we'd say that is very Christian.
That God is in everyway Jesus. But your idea of God is absolutely NOTHING like Jesus.
Jesus is not a melomaniac. Jesus is not evil. He doesn't hate people. He isn't selfish.
God is not an obnoxious idiot who beats a car because he decided not to give it gas or an engine for that matter.
Instead of objecting to the dumb idea you saying that is exactly who God is.
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
He is asking a rhetorical question, He is not saying He does not know.
a question asked in order to create a dramatic effect or to make a point rather than to get an answer.
"the presentation was characterized by impossibly long sentences and a succession of rhetorical questions"
John 2:24
But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because He knew all men,
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
8 I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”
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from a commentary
18:8 speedily. This is in God’s time (2 Pet. 3:8), not ours.
will he find faith. This does not mean that there will be no believers, but that faith will not be characteristic of all.
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He is speaking to the disciples who likely assumed when He returned, He would find faith on the earth, as in like many people believing in Him.
It is scripturally spoken though right before His return there has just been the great apostasy of believers, so this is His way of telling us there wont be many faithful people believing at the end of the last days who remain alive until His second coming.
==============
from a commentary
18:8 speedily. This is in God’s time (2 Pet. 3:8), not ours.
will he find faith. This does not mean that there will be no believers, but that faith will not be characteristic of all.
-------------------
He is speaking to the disciples who likely assumed when He returned, He would find faith on the earth, as in like many people believing in Him.
It is scripturally spoken though right before His return there has just been the great apostasy of believers, so this is His way of telling us there wont be many faithful people believing at the end of the last days who remain alive until His second coming.
Titus Tarnum
Member
From Dave G to LaGrange
May God bless you in many ways and with many good and perfect gifts.
I love this salutation!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
May God bless you in many ways and with many good and perfect gifts.
I love this salutation!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
http://www.ntslibrary.com/PDF Books II/Simmons - A Systematic Study of Bible Doctrine.pdf
I. THE PAST TENSE OF SALVATION
We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin.
- THE THREE TENSES OF SALVATION Note the following passages: "Thy faith hath saved thee" (Luke 7:50). "By grace have ye been saved through faith" (Eph. 2:8) ...... who saved us and called us with a holy calling" (2 Tim. 1:9)."...according to his mercy he saved us" (Titus 3:5). All of these passages, and many more like them, speak of salvation as a work finished in the past. This tense of salvation is coincident with the believer's past sanctification, as considered in the former chapter.
It has to do (1) with the soul;
(2) with the remission of sin's penalty, the removal of guilt, and even the removal of sin's presence from the soul.
In this sense the salvation of the believer is complete. As we have said of justification, so we may say of this tense of salvation: it is an act, and not a process. It occurs and is complete the moment the individual believes. It admits of no degrees nor stages. It is under this tense of salvation that we are to classify the passages that speak of the believer as possessing eternal life now. See John 5:24; John 6:47; 17:2, 3; 1 John 3:13; 5:11, 13. This means simply, as expressed in John 5:24, that the believer has passed from under all danger of condemnation and the power of the second death.
II. THE PRESENT TENSE OF SALVATION We are being saved from the POWER of sin. "The word of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us who are saved (marg., are being saved) it is the power of God" (1 Cor. 1:18). The Greek participle in the above passage is in the present tense, and denotes "those being saved, the act . . . being in progress, not completed' (E. P. Gould).
It is with reference to the present tense of salvation that Phil. 2:12 speaks when it says: "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." The meaning of this passage is that the Philippian believers were to make effective in their lives the new life that God had implanted in their hearts. There are other passages in which salvation is not mentioned, which, nevertheless, refer to the present process of salvation; such as Rom. 6:14; Gal. 2:19,20; 2 Cor. 3:18. In the present tense of salvation believers are being saved through the work of the indwelling Spirit from the power of sin to hinder the new life. It is thus equivalent to progressive sanctification. It has to do not with the soul, nor with the body, but with the life.
We shall be saved from the PRESENCE of sin.
In the following passages salvation is spoken of as something yet future. Rom. 5:9, 10; 8:24; 13:11; 1 Cor. 5:5; Eph. 1:13, 14; 1 Thess. 5:8; Heb. 10:36; 1 Pet. 1.5; 1 John 3:2, 3. Paul tells us in Rom. 8:23 what this future salvation is in the main. It is "the redemption of our body," by which he means the application of redemption to the believer's body. This will take place in the resurrection of those who sleep in Christ (1 Cor. 15:52-56; 1 Thess. 4.16) and in the rapture of those who are alive at Christ's coming in the air (1 Thess. 4:17). It is only then that the regenerated spirit will enter into the full fruition of salvation. Thus we read that the spirit is to be saved "in the day of the Lord Jesus" (1 Cor. 5:5). This tense of salvation has to do mainly with the body and the presence of sin in the body. It is under this head that we are to classify all the passages that speak of eternal life as something the believer will receive in the future. See Matt. 25:46; Mark 10:30; Titus 1:2; 3:7.
Thus we have the beautiful harmony that exists between all the passages that touch on the subject of salvation. There is no conflict between these passages, because they refer to different phases of salvation. It is absurd and heretical for any man to take one set out of the three, no matter which set he takes, and seek to deny or nullify one or the other or both of the two remaining sets. The way of truth is to take all of them rightly divided. Let it be remarked in closing that salvation in all its tenses and phases is of the Lord. Paul gives us God's method of work in salvation from beginning to end in Phil 1:6 and 2:13. He begins the work of salvation and He carries it on to its consummation. All along the line He works in us "both to will and to do His good pleasure." Moreover it is all of grace through faith. "For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith" (Rom. 1:17).
Titus Tarnum
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