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Prevenient Grace

johnp.

New Member
You can read a strory to a tree...does that then make the tree accontable?

Are you feeling alright webdog? :)

Are we saved now by paid sin...

I am saved now because Christ paid the price that was mine to pay.

Are we saved now by paid sin...or are we saved by grace through faith?

LK 1:68 "Praise be to the Lord, the God of Israel, because he has come and has redeemed his people.

That is grace. The sacrifice that was offered for me was accepted by my God. When He deemed it time for me to know He let me know of the covenant made between the Father and the Son for me. I was not consulted.

John 19:30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

"It is finished." What was finished? The purpose for which He came? Mk 10:45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' " 1 Sam 3:14.

Eli lost his sons because God wanted us to know that the atonement was limited in number.


john.
 

npetreley

New Member
johnp. said:
That is grace. The sacrifice that was offered for me was accepted by my God. When He deemed it time for me to know He let me know of the covenant made between the Father and the Son for me. I was not consulted.

Wow. I'd call that good news, wouldn't you?
 

JDale

Member
Site Supporter
Rippon said:
JDALE , you maintain that you understand the Calvinistic position perfectly . But you use an Arminian lens in understanding 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9 . You say that folks are " forced into the God's grace " . Where has any Calvinist on this board said that ? Where in Church history has any Calvinist made that claim . I would like to see your proof that any Calvinist contends that anyone is " forced to have repentance " . I think your understanding of our position is a bit on the imperfect side .


Rip:

Two examples from this thread:

"The wages of sin is death and if Jesus died for everyone's sins everyone is saved. The price was paid in full. What's so difficult about that?" -- JohnP.

"Of course most non-Cals do not believe in universalism - yet that is the rational end-result that they are forced to come up with if they are consistent. I do agree with one thing you said -- The Lord will indeed save all those He desires to save." -- Rip

Perhaps I've misread you Rip, but the "rational end-result" you indicate -- that "the Lord will save all those He desires," and the sentiment expressed by JohnP., "if Jesus died for everyone's sins is saved," makes my point. Game, set, match....

JDale
 
JDale said:
Rip:

Two examples from this thread:

"The wages of sin is death and if Jesus died for everyone's sins everyone is saved. The price was paid in full. What's so difficult about that?" -- JohnP.

"Of course most non-Cals do not believe in universalism - yet that is the rational end-result that they are forced to come up with if they are consistent. I do agree with one thing you said -- The Lord will indeed save all those He desires to save." -- Rip

Perhaps I've misread you Rip, but the "rational end-result" you indicate -- that "the Lord will save all those He desires," and the sentiment expressed by JohnP., "if Jesus died for everyone's sins is saved," makes my point. Game, set, match....

JDale

This is beyond me. How in the world do you get that out of the quotes you have given JDale? You really do not understand Calvinism. That is quite obvious. I'm not taking a stab at you, please understand that. I am really trying to understand how you can get that people are forced to come to repentence against their will, with the two quotes you have given. Please enlighten me.
 
webdog said:
I know we wont' change each others minds...but I hope Scripture can. I believe I supplied the Scripture that does show that, btw, and none of it was translated by me :) .
I pointed out in the other thread that your highlighted word "whsoever" falls after the colon (":") of the word all. Even whosever has to be taken into context meaning whoever of all or everyone.

Surely you don't think the punctuation marks are inspired do you web?

Web, in my Baptist University study, we went over Hebrews in my general epistles class, and my hermeneutics class also, and believe me.... the Calvinistic view was prefered over the Non-Calvinist view. Of course, OBU's courses are decidedly Calvinistic. :)
 

skypair

Active Member
johnp. said:
But we have the mind of Christ.

All Christians have the mind of Christ maybe some don't use it.

john.
BINGO!! Ever meet a Christian that didn't need to be taught anything? None of us has arrived there but all have that potential. And some are closer than others. :thumbs:

skypair
 

skypair

Active Member
reformedbeliever said:
I do not have all the answers. That is why I said "somehow God is able to direct events of all mankind, yet do it in a way that He is not the author of sin". Sky took that and ran with it. He (sky) likes to continually point out that I said "somehow". I don't have a problem not having all the answers. I don't think the bible gives us all the answers. Sometimes sky acts like the bible gives him all the answers, and that is what makes a lot of people upset with him. (or her)
rb, I'm not holding you up for public ridicule. But it is like alcoholism -- if you can't admit your faults, there's no way to begin the healing process. And the fault in this case is a "broken" theology. It held together for a long time but now it doesn't answer some important questions that need answering. And you are honest enough to admit that at least.

So let's start by seriously investigating what the Bible means by God's sovereignty and how He uses it. I say that He allots each of us personal sovereignty and personal responsibility but He is maintains His sovereignty over the consequences.

Now sometimes/often, He tells us what the consequences of exercising our sovereignty one way or another will be, right? If He promises that He will save us if we do X, He will perform it. If He tells us there is a "sin unto death," we ought to know that if we do something willingly wrong continually, we may die as a result of that sin.

Now doesn't that answer a lot of questions right there? We now know why God chooses whom He elects, right? We now know how man is responsible but God is sovereign, right? And I mean, I didn't pull this out of my sleeve nor out of my "free will handbook" -- it's in the Bible! :laugh:

skypair
 

skypair

Active Member
reformbeliever

webdog said:
I know we wont' change each others minds...but I hope Scripture can. I believe I supplied the Scripture that does show that, btw, and none of it was translated by me :) .
We ought to be able to change each others' minds if we have the same Spirit, don't you think??

I mean, we've narrowed the discussion down to one between 2 believers and surely one is right, no?

If it weren't for "theologies" but merely a matter of scripture, we'd obviously be on the same page, right?

skypair
 
skypair said:
rb, I'm not holding you up for public ridicule. But it is like alcoholism -- if you can't admit your faults, there's no way to begin the healing process. And the fault in this case is a "broken" theology. It held together for a long time but now it doesn't answer some important questions that need answering. And you are honest enough to admit that at least.

So let's start by seriously investigating what the Bible means by God's sovereignty and how He uses it. I say that He allots each of us personal sovereignty and personal responsibility but He is maintains His sovereignty over the consequences.

Now sometimes/often, He tells us what the consequences of exercising our sovereignty one way or another will be, right? If He promises that He will save us if we do X, He will perform it. If He tells us there is a "sin unto death," we ought to know that if we do something willingly wrong continually, we may die as a result of that sin.

Now doesn't that answer a lot of questions right there? We now know why God chooses whom He elects, right? We now know how man is responsible but God is sovereign, right? And I mean, I didn't pull this out of my sleeve nor out of my "free will handbook" -- it's in the Bible! :laugh:

skypair

Sky, c'mon brother. Look in the mirror. I could just as easily say your theology is broken. And you said "lets start by seriously investigating what the bible says" and then you went on to tell me what you believe without scripture. You even said " I say". Brother, you really need to have a slice of humble pie. It would do you wonders.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Surely you don't think the punctuation marks are inspired do you web?
No, just trying to put "whosoever" in the context it needs to be in. Stating Christ tasted death for whoever doesn't really make much sense. He tasted death for "pas"...all.
 
webdog said:
No, just trying to put "whosoever" in the context it needs to be in. Stating Christ tasted death for whoever doesn't really make much sense. He tasted death for "pas"...all.

It doesn't sound just right in english does it? Translation is an art and science that is not all that easy. When we try to get across meaning from one language to another, sometimes in the language we are translating to, words may sound out of place or the language will be difficult. We see this in the various translations. Some say the ESV is that way. I don't see a problem with it.
I think you see what I mean web. When we look at pas in strongs, it also says "all manner of". I take that to mean not all as in individual, although it could have that meaning, but it could also mean all manner of. When we read in context we see that the author of Hebrews was speaking to Christians. There are all manner of Christians. Do you agree? Some of them seem to be just professing christians and not possessing Christians huh?
 

Allan

Active Member
Rippon said:
Allan , it's hard to catch all your mistakes in one post . Let's deal with one of your errors for now . Show me any proof that any Calvinist on this board or in Church history has believed that every instance of "all" in the Bible does not literally mean all . You are going to come up empty-handed . "For all have come short of the glory of God ." That's just one example where no Calvinist has denied the thrust of that word "all" meaning each and every .
What??

Who said anything about someone claiming 'all' doesn't mean 'all'. It was in reference to 'all' meaning ALL mankind and NOT 'all sorts of men'. And I was paraphrasing Spurgeon.
Spurgeon Sermon: Salvaiton by knowing Truth. (2 Tim 2:3-4)
It is quite certain that when we read that God will have all men to be saved it does not mean that he wills it with the force of a decree or a divine purpose, for, if he did, then all men would be saved. He willed to make the world, and the world was made: he does not so will the salvation of all men, for we know that all men will not be saved. Terrible as the truth is, yet is it certain from holy writ that there are men who, in consequence of their sin and their rejection of the Savior, will go away into everlasting punishment, where shall be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. There will at the last be goats upon the left hand as well as sheep on the right, tares to be burned as well as wheat to be garnered, chaff to be blown away as well as corn to be preserved. There will be a dreadful hell as well as a glorious heaven, and there is no decree to the contrary.
What then? Shall we try to put another meaning into the text than that which it fairly bears? I trow not. You must, most of you, be acquainted with the general method in which our older Calvinistic friends deal with this text. "All men," say they,—"that is, some men": as if the Holy Ghost could not have said "some men" if he had meant some men. "All men," say they; "that is, some of all sorts of men": as if the Lord could not have said "all sorts of men" if he had meant that. The Holy Ghost by the apostle has written "all men," and unquestionably he means all men. I know how to get rid of the force of the "alls" according to that critical method which some time ago was very current, but I do not see how it can be applied here with due regard to truth. I was reading just now the exposition of a very able doctor who explains the text so as to explain it away; he applies grammatical gunpowder to it, and explodes it by way of expounding it. I thought when I read his exposition that it would have been a very capital comment upon the text if it had read, "Who will not have all men to be saved, nor come to a knowledge of the truth." Had such been the inspired language every remark of the learned doctor would have been exactly in keeping, but as it happens to say, "Who will have all men to be saved," his observations are more than a little out of place. My love of consistency with my own doctrinal views is not great enough to allow me knowingly to alter a single text of Scripture. I have great respect for orthodoxy, but my reverence for inspiration is far greater. I would sooner a hundred times over appear to be inconsistent with myself than be inconsistent with the word of God. I never thought it to be any very great crime to seem to be inconsistent with myself; for who am I that I should everlastingly be consistent? But I do think it a great crime to be so inconsistent with the word of God that I should want to lop away a bough or even a twig from so much as a single tree of the forest of Scripture. God forbid that I should cut or shape, even in the least degree, any divine expression. So runs the text, and so we must read it, "God our Savior; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
Does not the text mean that it is the wish of God that men should be saved? The word "wish" gives as much force to the original as it really requires, and the passage should run thus—"whose wish it is that all men should be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth." As it is my wish that it should be so, as it is your wish that it might be so, so it is God's wish that all men should be saved; for, assuredly, he is not less benevolent than we are. Then comes the question, "But if he wishes it to be so, why does he not make it so? " Beloved friend, have you never heard that a fool may ask a question which a wise man cannot answer, and, if that be so, I am sure a wise person, like yourself, can ask me a great many questions which, fool as I am, I am yet not foolish enough to try to answer. Your question is only one form of the great debate of all the ages,—"If God be infinitely good and powerful, why does not his power carry out to the full all his beneficence?" It is God's wish that the oppressed should go free, yet there are many oppressed who are not free. It is God's wish that the sick should not suffer. Do you doubt it? Is it not your own wish? And yet the Lord does not work a miracle to heal every sick person. It is God's wish that his creatures should be happy. Do you deny that? He does not interpose by any miraculous agency to make us all happy, and yet it would be wicked to suppose that he does not wish the happiness of all the creatures that he has made. He has an infinite benevolence which, nevertheless, is not in all points worked out by his infinite omnipotence; and if anybody asked me why it is not, I cannot tell. I have never set up to be an explainer of all difficulties, and I have no desire to do so. It is the same old question as that of the negro who said, "Sare, you say the devil makes sin in the world." "Yes, the devil makes a deal of sin." "And you say that God hates sin." "Yes." "Then why does not he kill the devil and put an end to it?" Just so. Why does he not? Ah, my black friend, you will grow white before that question is answered. I cannot tell you why God permits moral evil, neither can the ablest philosopher on earth, nor the highest angel in heaven...snip...
From Spurgeon. org
 
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Allan

Active Member
reformedbeliever said:
I have a lot to learn brother. More so than you. I do not have all the answers. That is why I said "somehow God is able to direct events of all mankind, yet do it in a way that He is not the author of sin". Sky took that and ran with it. He (sky) likes to continually point out that I said "somehow". I don't have a problem not having all the answers. I don't think the bible gives us all the answers. Sometimes sky acts like the bible gives him all the answers, and that is what makes a lot of people upset with him. (or her)
I love you brother, and i'm sure I have a lot to learn from you. I have come to embrace the sovereignty of God along with the responsibility of man. That is an antinomy. If and when we make decisions, those decisions were predestined before time began. With God being all knowing, there can not be another alternative. Now web will come along and say, "yeah but He is omnipresent too" lol. Yes He is. God bless you brother.
edited to add...... if sky is a her... she can forget that lunch date...... unless my wife can come. :)
I to have lots to learn. Just do not throw out something because it does not fit your current view. I only ask that you look at it with a willingness to see if it bears truth, EVEN THOUGH it may be outside the four walls of Calvinism. I to hold to Gods soveriegnty and Mans responsiblity but you may not think I do because it is not as you see it. And the same toward me regarding you. I am glad to have made such a keen friend that keeps my on my toes and tests my understanding as well as my humility. For that and for most due to our Saviour Jesus I also thank and love you brother.
 
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joycebuckner

New Member
Spurgeon, what a tremendous man of God. A Calvinist that said that all man should hear the plan of God's Grace. All men should and must hear so that he can by right choose to answwer the call of God. He wanted man to be saved by the grace of God so much that while he was preaching in the sanctuary up stairs, 200 men were praying down stairs in a room for the salvation of men. Win them, he cryed...And win them, he did.... He gave the call and men (and women)lol of course answered God's call
What a man of God...How many of us are in constant prayer for the souls of man.......Bless be our Lord God
John 3:16,17 what wonderful how plan and simple God makes his truth.........amen
 

Allan

Active Member
joycebuckner said:
Spurgeon, what a tremendous man of God. A Calvinist that said that all man should hear the plan of God's Grace. All men should and must hear so that he can by right choose to answwer the call of God. He wanted man to be saved by the grace of God so much that while he was preaching in the sanctuary up stairs, 200 men were praying down stairs in a room for the salvation of men. Win them, he cryed...And win them, he did.... He gave the call and men (and women)lol of course answered God's call
What a man of God...How many of us are in constant prayer for the souls of man.......Bless be our Lord God
John 3:16,17 what wonderful how plan and simple God makes his truth.........amen
I like a quote of Spurgeon Prayer he gave during a Revival Meeting of D.L. Moody.
"...save the elect, and then elect some more!"
 

Rippon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Of course Spurgeon was kind of joking there Allan . The Lord can not add anyone to the Lamb's book of Life . The enrolled were inscribed before the foundation of the world . None can be added or removed .
 
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