Pro-vax and Anti-vax Totalitarianism

[JonC]

Yeah that sounds good Jon but then why Vax facts sticky and the duo mod led thread Vaks Fax Debate?

The latter is encouraging debate and here to fish one needs de bait.

Because this is the news forum and the actual fact sheets needed to be posted.

The fact sheets are not pro or anti vax. They list serious side effects which can kill you. They also show the number of incidents experienced in the trials (to include Bell's palsy and organ damage).

It also lists the ingredients (some may plan on a vaccine, but reading the ingredients they may find they are allergic to a component).

Also, it helps people dismiss claims from the pro-vaxers that the vaccine prevents covid, is 100% effective, and has no serious posdible side-effects while also helping them dismiss anti-vax claims that it is recommended by the CDC for pregnant women, nursing mothers, fails to disclose side-effects, etc.

If you are considering whether to be vacvinated or not, this information is important and a good start.

It is also required to be provided when people get vaccinated so it's a heads up for those so inclined.

It was not a debate but the information avaliable.

 

[rlvaughn]

I have yet to see a mandate TO vaccine.

What would you consider a mandate to vaccine/be vaccinated? For example, would an order issued by a state’s public health officer requiring COVID-19 vaccinations for health care workers (employees of hospitals, nursing homes, doctors’ offices, clinics, medical facilities) be a mandate?

Thanks.

 

[Reynolds]

Because this is the news forum and the actual fact sheets needed to be posted.

The fact sheets are not pro or anti vax. They list serious side effects which can kill you. They also show the number of incidents experienced in the trials (to include Bell's palsy and organ damage).

It also lists the ingredients (some may plan on a vaccine, but reading the ingredients they may find they are allergic to a component).

Also, it helps people dismiss claims from the pro-vaxers that the vaccine prevents covid, is 100% effective, and has no serious posdible side-effects while also helping them dismiss anti-vax claims that it is recommended by the CDC for pregnant women, nursing mothers, fails to disclose side-effects, etc.

If you are considering whether to be vacvinated or not, this information is important and a good start.

It is also required to be provided when people get vaccinated so it's a heads up for those so inclined.

It was not a debate but the information avaliable.

Jon, do you actually watch any news on Tv? You need to. What's worse is the information you post is proof that the CDC and White House knowingly lied to The People. That's like having the wonderful advertisement for a product and then the fine print so small you don't see it.
But thank you for again pointing out that Biden and the CDC spokesmen and Faucci, knowingly lied to us. It was not misinformation given in ignorance. It was pure lies.

 

[JonC]

What would you consider a mandate to vaccine/be vaccinated? For example, would an order issued by a state’s public health officer requiring COVID-19 vaccinations for health care workers (employees of hospitals, nursing homes, doctors’ offices, clinics, medical facilities) be a mandate?

Thanks.

Depends on who is doing the mandating and the context.

A person joining the military has to get vaccinated. They cannot mandate the person be vaccinated but it is a condition if employment. Same with hospitals and school systems.

This is not a blanket mandate.

I'm not sure how I feel about it.

I believe the employer should be able to determine requirements of employment.

But are the same time the pro-vacvine stance fails. It is designed primarily to protect the unvaccibated....but if they are unvaccinated by choice then that is their decision.

I do not have a problem with vaccinations being manditory in the military. They are with other vaccines and since the vaccine does not prevent contagen it is up to the military to determine readiness requirements.

I am not in favor of it in the school system. Most are under 16 years old so a mandated vacvine does not apply. Thus would apply only to staff, but most contact us between children.

I am opposed to a general mandate for the population as a whole.

If the anti-vaxers are correct then they are in little danger of covid while the vacvinated are (by their choice) at risk.

If the pro-vaxers are correct then they are at little risk and the danger is to the vacvinated.

I say let people in general choose and live-die with their decision.

 

[JonC]

Jon, do you actually watch any news on Tv?

No. I do not watch the news on TV.

I do not doubt the White House and political representative of the CDC (Fauci and his crew) lie. So does the Senate and Congress (both parties)

I do not plan on wasting my time watching what I know are lies, especially since it has no effect on me.

When I watch TV I watch Amazon Prime, Netflix, and YouTube TV. The closest I get to the news is catching up on baseball scores.

But most of the time I get out of the house. I like to fish (need to do more of that).

 

[Reynolds]

No. I do not watch the news on TV.

I do not doubt the White House and political representative of the CDC (Fauci and his crew) lie. So does the Senate and Congress (both parties)

I do not plan on wasting my time watching what I know are lies, especially since it has no effect on me.

When I watch TV I watch Amazon Prime, Netflix, and YouTube TV. The closest I get to the news is catching up on baseball scores.

But most of the time I get out of the house. I like to fish (need to do more of that).

You must realize that most Americans don't read CDC website. They watch news or newsfeeds. The information they are giving is lies.
Why the lies?
What is the motivation?

 

[rlvaughn]

Depends on who is doing the mandating and the context.

My example gives the "who" and the context. Who: state public health officer. Context: health care employees as a condition of employment.
State Public Health Officer Order of August 5, 2021

 

[JonC]

You must realize that most Americans don't read CDC website. They watch news or newsfeeds. The information they are giving is lies.
Why the lies?
What is the motivation?

I know. The reason for the lies is politics.

The pandemic became a political tool.

 

[JonC]

My example gives the "who" and the context. Who: state public health officer. Context: health care employees as a condition of employment.
State Public Health Officer Order of August 5, 2021

The example is requiring health care workers in specific (most) settings to be vaccinated for covid in addition to what is already required.

I do not know what authority the state public health officer (or just the state?) has over the hospitals. If it is within the states authority to add the covid vaccine to what is already required for hospital workersvl then I have no issue with it.

You asked me to define what I mean by mandate in regards to my statement that Biden has not issued a vaccine mandate.

I mean the federal government requiring all persons be vaccinated.

In a hospital setting - if the health authorities determine uncacvunated persons are spreaders of the virus then I agree with the mandate. If they determine unvaccinated persons are not putting patients at risk then I disagree with a mandate.

 

[JonC]

More personal attacks on BB members.

No. It is a question. People like @Revmitchell are quick to point out personal attacks, the question being of this is only when the attack is against someone in his "camp".

If I complain about attacks against someone on my "team" but ignore the same thing when it is coming from my "team" then there is an issue of character. The actual complaint has nothing to do with the conduct and is just manuplation.

But if I am a consistent Christian then I would call personal attacks wrong, regardless of the source.

 

[Wingman68]

My observation is I don’t see Revmitchell as a personal attacker. Here is his typical ‘attack’…….’Nothing about this post is true.’ The people who always personally attack fail to get recognition about it from Jon. He gives them ‘winner’ upvotes. Jon is always on the top # of posts list. I think someone used the term domineering, I concur. If Jon can name people here, surely we have the same right to name him.

 

[rlvaughn]

I do not know what authority the state public health officer (or just the state?) has over the hospitals. If it is within the states authority to add the covid vaccine to what is already required for hospital workersvl then I have no issue with it.

You asked me to define what I mean by mandate in regards to my statement that Biden has not issued a vaccine mandate.

I did not ask you if you had an issue with it, but I asked you whether or not it was a mandate by your definition.

I did not ask you what you mean by mandate in regards to whether Biden had or had not issued a vaccine mandate. You may have had Biden in mind when you made post # 3, but you did not mention him, and I did not have him in mind when I asked you the question. I asked it in regard to the example given.

 

[JonC]

I did not ask you if you had an issue with it, but I asked you whether or not it was a mandate by your definition.

I did not ask you what you mean by mandate in regards to whether Biden had or had not issued a vaccine mandate. You may have had Biden in mind when you made post # 3, but you did not mention him, and I did not have him in mind when I asked you the question. I asked it in regard to the example given.

I know you did not ask those things. I am explaining because of my previous comments.

I think you have my answer. An employer requiring vaccinations is not what I would consider a mandate.

Here is how I define mandate in the sense of mandating a vaccine -

Definition of mandate (Websters)

1: an authoritative command especially : a formal order from a superior court or official to an inferior one
2: an authorization to act given to a representative accepted the mandate of the people


So no, I would not consider your example a mandate (of California health services requiring vaccinations as a condition to work in health care settings). The order does not mandate people be vaccinated.

 

[rlvaughn]

I know you did not ask those things. I am explaining because of my previous comments.

I think you have my answer. An employer requiring vaccinations is not what I would consider a mandate.

Here is how I define mandate in the sense of mandating a vaccine -

Definition of mandate (Websters)

1: an authoritative command especially : a formal order from a superior court or official to an inferior one
2: an authorization to act given to a representative accepted the mandate of the people


So no, I would not consider your example a mandate (of California health services requiring vaccinations as a condition to work in health care settings). The order does not mandate people be vaccinated.

You often entangle your answers with extraneous information and explanations that do not exactly fit the question so that it is hard to understand what you are saying. So the explaining becomes obscured instead of clear. The order by the state's public health officer is not an employer requiring vaccinations, but an official act under the authority of the state of California. When you add something like "employer requiring vaccinations" when that is not the issue, it obfuscates your answer, whether you realize it or not.

 

[RipponRedeaux]

I do not have a problem with vaccinations being manditory in the military. They are with other vaccines and since the vaccine does not prevent contagen it is up to the military to determine readiness requirements

If the pro-vaxers are correct then they are at little risk and the danger is to the vacvinated.

Regarding the military, these latest jabs do not conform to the traditional vaccines. There is more than enough information out there to demonstrate that these jabs can be dangerous ---in essence, short term or long term death.

Concerning the pro-vaxxers, it has been shown that they are at greater risk than those who have not gotten the jab. Israel is an ideal case-in-point.

 

[JonC]

Regarding the military, these latest jabs do not conform to the traditional vaccines. There is more than enough information out there to demonstrate that these jabs can be dangerous ---in essence, short term or long term death.

Concerning the pro-vaxxers, it has been shown that they are at greater risk than those who have not gotten the jab. Israel is an ideal case-in-point.

Once the FDA approves it it's fair game. We had vaccines many would question - the only optional ones were not FDA approved (like tickborne encefalitis...which I took, btw).

It has not been shown the vaccinated are at greater risk. You are playing with numbers. But we do not know the future status of vaccines.

 

[Andre]

Whether to be vaccinated or not is an individual choice and regardless of the decision that person does not have to justify him/herself to others.

Pro-vaxers and anti-vaxers go beyond this to advocate their position for other people (either by trying to talk people out of getting a vaccine or by forcing people to get a vaccine). They are not content staying in their own lane.

While I appreciate what appears to be an attempt on your part to bring the two sides together on this, I politely suggest you are being overly generous.

Bluntly, when a person chooses to forego a safe vaccine for a highly contagious, serious illness they are very much "leaving their lane".

How is this not obvious - they pose a health threat to all and sundry! How does this not put them squarely in my lane?.

Let me be clear: I very much agree that it is their choice - no argument from me on this. But surely, and especially within a Christian community, appropriate rebuke is on the table.

If this were not an insanely contagious disease, I would be with you 100% on this.

But with a contagious disease, there is more than freedom of choice involved; there is also social responsibility.

 

[Andre]

Trying to deny choice, either way (you trying to stop vaccines, your counterparts trying to force vaccines) are Authoritarians.

I know of no efforts to force people to be vaccinated. Sure, there will be vaccination requirements for certain jobs, as there should be. But no one is being forced to take the vaccine.

 

[Andre]

I want to stop the loss of my rights. The pro vax crowd is trying to take away my rights.
I know the vax is not the mark of the beast, but it is getting too close.
Show me your papers or you can't buy, sell, trade, work, or travel. That is giving govt too much power.

What rights are being taken away? Please be specific.

Do you have a right to fly in a plane? I do not believe any legal expert would say that you do.
Do you have a right to go to a movies theater? Again, I do not believe any legal expert would say that you do.
Do you have right to a particular job? Same argument.

Here is the problem: yes, "your rights" are an issue - no one should force you to get vaccinated. But employers and businesses also have rights, such as providing a safe workplace.

This issue is not only about rights; it is about responsibilities as well.

 

[Wingman68]

What rights are being taken away? Please be specific.

Do you have a right to fly in a plane? I do not believe any legal expert would say that you do.
Do you have a right to go to a movies theater? Again, I do not believe any legal expert would say that you do.
Do you have right to a particular job? Same argument.

Here is the problem: yes, "your rights" are an issue - no one should force you to get vaccinated. But employers and businesses also have rights, such as providing a safe workplace.

This issue is not only about rights; it is about responsibilities as well.

Since I’m meme happy this morning, here’s one for you & Canada: