Pro-vax and Anti-vax Totalitarianism

[Andre]

I just get tired of people suggesting other people take or refrain from getting vaccinated (they are mor qualified, it is not their business, and it can be dangerous).

Surely you are not opposed to health care experts recommending that people take the vaccine?

 

[just-want-peace]

Insanely contagious disease?????
Really???
And your proof????

I would sincerely love to see the med reports of all "COVID" deaths, just to see how many strokes, heart attacks, kidney failures , yada, yada, yada, would have occurred in the absence of "COVID"; yeah, I know, this will never, NEVER happen under a dem admin. Too much political advantage would be lost to see the actual deaths from covid. I dare say that at least 50-70% less than now "claimed" would be a reasonable guess.
Just MHO, but until I can see some facts (whatever those are ) I'll believe this.
Face it folks, this is what (along with some questionable tactics) put the current POTUS in office, & they ARE NOT going to let it go willingly or quietly.

 

[Andre]

Insanely contagious disease?????
Really???
And your proof????

Oh come on, are you serious?

From evolutionary biologist and biostatistician Tom Wenseleers at the University of Leuven in Belgium:

Delta is one of the most contagious respiratory viruses that we know of.

 

[Andre]

Face it folks, this is what (along with some questionable tactics) put the current POTUS in office, & they ARE NOT going to let it go willingly or quietly.

Ok, at least we know where you are coming from now.

 

[Andre]

Too much political advantage would be lost to see the actual deaths from covid. I dare say that at least 50-70% less than now "claimed" would be a reasonable guess.
Just MHO, but until I can see some facts (whatever those are ) I'll believe this.

Let's be clear: this is conspiracy-theory thinking. You are asking people believe that there is a systematic, intentional plot to mislead the public about covid deaths.

So I suppose the jammed ICUs are full of actors in on the game?

I suppose the grieving relatives at the graveside are actors as well?

I suppose the refrigerated trucks outside hospitals are full of people who died from something other than covid?

I suppose the excess mortality in 2020 of at least 3.3 million people worldwide in 2020 is a statistical fluke?

I suppose the highly trained medical experts are all in on it as well, even though they are risking their livelihoods if the plot is discovered?

 

[Wingman68]

Let's be clear: this is conspiracy-theory thinking. You are asking people believe that there is a systematic, intentional plot to mislead the public about covid deaths.

So I suppose the jammed ICUs are full of actors in on the game?

I suppose the grieving relatives at the graveside are actors as well?

I suppose the refrigerated trucks outside hospitals are full of people who died from something other than covid?

I suppose the excess mortality in 2020 of at least 3.3 million people worldwide in 2020 is a statistical fluke?

I suppose the highly trained medical experts are all in on it as well, even though they are risking their livelihoods if the plot is discovered?

Maybe they’re full of vaxxed people, like Israel, but not to worry, they’re lining them up for the booster.

The massive surge of COVID-19 infections in Israel, one of the most vaccinated countries on earth, is nothing less than a disaster. The Israel vaccine crisis should be a warning to the rest of the world.

Earlier in April, the Israeli Peoples Committee (IPC), a civilian body made of leading Israeli health experts, published its report into the Pfizer vaccine’s side effects indicating damage to almost every system in the human body.
If the findings by IPC were genuine, then Pfizer vaccine was linked to more deaths in Israel than AstraZeneca’s in the whole of Europe.

In June, there were several days with zero new COVID infections in Israel. The country launched its national vaccination campaign in December last year and has one of the highest vaccination rates in the world, with 80 percent of citizens above the age of 12 fully inoculated.

COVID, most Israelis thought, had been defeated. All restrictions were lifted and Israelis went back to crowded partying and praying in mask-free venues.

Fast forward two months later: Israel reported 9,831 new diagnosed cases on Tuesday, a hairbreadth away from the worst daily figure ever recorded in the country—10,000—at the peak of the third wave.

More than 350 people have died of the disease in the first three weeks of August. In a Sunday press conference, the directors of seven public hospitals announced that they could no longer admit any coronavirus patients.

With 670 COVID-19 patients requiring critical care, their wards are overflowing and staff are at breaking point.

After vaccinating almost the entire country, now Israel is facing a major disaster.

“I don’t want to frighten you,” coronavirus czar Dr. Salman Zarka told the Israeli parliament this week. “But this is the data. Unfortunately, the numbers don’t lie ” reported The Daily Beast.

Israel vaccinated its population almost exclusively with the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine.

But in early July, with citizens over the age of 60 almost completely vaccinated, Israeli scientists began observing a worrisome rise in infections—if not in severe illness and death—among the double-vaccinated.

Meanwhile, a new study has raised concerns about the mRNA vaccines’ effectiveness revealing that Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine is only 42% effective against the Delta variant.

And what the officials are not saying is that, it is actually the people who have been fully vaccinated for COVID-19 yet still get infected with the delta strain are transmitting the infection to unvaccinated people.

Now, in order to resolve the vaccine-induced crisis caused by the failure of the two jabs, Israel again wants to vaccinate its population with booster shots.

As of this week, all Israelis over 30 will be eligible to receive booster shots. By the end of the month, they are expected to be universally available to anyone over the age of 12 who received their second vaccine five months or more ago.

Israel will then reconfigure its Green Passports, granting them only to the triple-vaccinated, and limiting their validity to six months.

In anticipation of this change, the number of unvaccinated Israelis getting their first shots has tripled since the beginning of August.

However, according to the world renowned Stanford University scientist Professor-Doctor Jayanta Bhattacharya and top global economist Donald Boudreaux, the idea of eradication of Covid is a dangerous and expensive fantasy.

 

[Reynolds]

What rights are being taken away? Please be specific.

Do you have a right to fly in a plane? I do not believe any legal expert would say that you do.
Do you have a right to go to a movies theater? Again, I do not believe any legal expert would say that you do.
Do you have right to a particular job? Same argument.

Here is the problem: yes, "your rights" are an issue - no one should force you to get vaccinated. But employers and businesses also have rights, such as providing a safe workplace.

This issue is not only about rights; it is about responsibilities as well.

So, as a business owner I can refuse service to anyone HIV, Hep B, or Hep C positive?

 

[JonC]

While I appreciate what appears to be an attempt on your part to bring the two sides together on this, I politely suggest you are being overly generous.

Bluntly, when a person chooses to forego a safe vaccine for a highly contagious, serious illness they are very much "leaving their lane".

How is this not obvious - they pose a health threat to all and sundry! How does this not put them squarely in my lane?.

Let me be clear: I very much agree that it is their choice - no argument from me on this. But surely, and especially within a Christian community, appropriate rebuke is on the table.

If this were not an insanely contagious disease, I would be with you 100% on this.

But with a contagious disease, there is more than freedom of choice involved; there is also social responsibility.

I agree with a lot in your reply.

That said, I am not trying to being the pro-vax and anti-vax sides together. I believe they are equally dangerous for the exact same reasons. They elevate themselves and pretend they know what is best for other people.

If the vaccine works it appears it will then the most vulnerable are the unvaccinated. There remains a small vulnerability among the vaccinated, but the largest loss to society as a whole will be the unvaccinated.

If they are forced to be vaccinated this will result in blaming others for negative effects of the vaccine, no matter how small. They will never realize the benefit because they deny covid as a legitimate danger. It would be best, ultimately, for society to let them die and become a lesson for future generations rather than to coerce vaccination.

We are already at the point many anti-vaxers are understanding the reality of their situation and changing their position.

An example is Phil Valentibe. He preached against the vaccine, but while dying of covid he changed his position. It s sad, but his example taught people about the virus in a more effective way than persuasion could ever do. And this is happening more often.

We know the risks of the vaccine, but every day we are seeing the benefits being lived out on the ground.

If you save somebody by force they will never appreciate that effort. If they die of their mistakes others can learn from their error. Society remains intact and the esdin is learned.

This probable sounds colder than I mean it to be, but I believe it is accurate. We cannot reserve a society by force.

But sometimes the best lessons learned (for a society) are the hardest.

The concerning part is the children.

 

[JonC]

Surely you are not opposed to health care experts recommending that people take the vaccine?

I am not opposed to people consulting the health care experts they trust.

But on this forum we see anti-vax members choosing "experts" based on the position they take on the vaccine. The pro-vaccine guys may do the same.

 

[JonC]

I know of no efforts to force people to be vaccinated. Sure, there will be vaccination requirements for certain jobs, as there should be. But no one is being forced to take the vaccine.

There are not any. The sane people talking about the government forcing vaccinations are the same who talk about the National Guard going door to door seizing guns. They are fearmongering.

 

[rlvaughn]

I know of no efforts to force people to be vaccinated. Sure, there will be vaccination requirements for certain jobs, as there should be. But no one is being forced to take the vaccine.

There are not any. The sane people talking about the government forcing vaccinations are the same who talk about the National Guard going door to door seizing guns.

I suppose some of that is according to what definition you put on your use of the word "force". Maybe it is sort of like Jen Psaki saying no Americans are stranded in Afghanistan. Some of that may be a matter of perspective as to whether you are an American in Afghanistan feeling trapped or you are a press secretary in America in front of a microphone. I suspect many health care workers in California who are required by the government to be vaccinated will feel compelled and constrained to be vaccinated -- do so or we will take away your livelihood.

 

[Wingman68]

An example is Phil Valentibe. He preached against the vaccine, but while dying of covid he changed his position. It s sad, but his example taught people about the virus in a more effective way than persuasion could ever do. And this is happening more often.

You keep bringing this up. No one has engaged you on it. I can see why, of course. However, from what I’ve seen, he remained anti vax. He tweeted that he would probably be out of the hospital the next day, & couldn’t wait to talk to his listeners. Well…..as happens with treatments given now……he did not get out of the hospital. Only his brother said, that he was ‘sure’ his brother would now want people to get the vax. Don’t know about anyone else, but I don’t want my brother ever speaking for me, or assuming what I might have thought about anything after I’m gone.
Let me ask you, are you getting the booster?

 

[JonC]

I suppose some of that is according to what definition you put on your use of the word "force". Maybe it is sort of like Jen Psaki saying no Americans are stranded in Afghanistan. Some of that may be a matter of perspective as to whether you are an American in Afghanistan feeling trapped or you are a press secretary in America in front of a microphone. I suspect many health care workers in California who are required by the government to be vaccinated will feel compelled and constrained to be vaccinated -- do so or we will take away your livelihood.

That is true. Employers usually have conditions of employment.

If I use marijuna on vacation in Colorado I will lose my job. In a way, I guess, you could say the DOE forces me not to use drugs (not that I would, but you get the picture).

A truck driver is forced by his employer to take physicals. At the school cafeteria the cooks are forced to wear hair nets. Military members are forced to get a flu shot, hospital workers general vaccines and a TB test annually.

So yes, I agree that if we do not meet the requirements of employment we can lose our jobs.

 

[JonC]

You keep bringing this up. No one has engaged you on it. I can see why, of course. However, from what I’ve seen, he remained anti vax. He tweeted that he would probably be out of the hospital the next day, & couldn’t wait to talk to his listeners. Well…..as happens with treatments given now……he did not get out of the hospital. Only his brother said, that he was ‘sure’ his brother would now want people to get the vax. Don’t know about anyone else, but I don’t want my brother ever speaking for me, or assuming what I might have thought about anything after I’m gone.
Let me ask you, are you getting the booster?

I use Phil Valentine because I liked Phik Valentine.

He expressed his opinion of the vaccine -
"I have a very low risk of A) Getting COVID and B) dying of it if I do. Why would I risk getting a heart attack or paralysis by getting the vaccine?" yes he did get covid and did of covid and was not vaccinated

His brother related that Valentine told him he was not opposed to vaccinations (I take it in general) and regretted not getting the shot.

We have no reason to disbelieve the brother (many have expressed the same change of heart when actually in the ICU with covid. ..some survived and some died).

On any account, it does not matter for Phil Valentine (he is dead). We know his family regrets his decision (it is those left with the bad decisions of others that bear the greater suffering). Since his death Mark Vakentine (Phil's brother) got the vaccine.

Yes, I am getting the booster and the flu shot. Also the shingles vaccine. Got the pneumonia vaccine last month. I'm invincible!!!!!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

While I appreciate what appears to be an attempt on your part to bring the two sides together on this, I politely suggest you are being overly generous.

Bluntly, when a person chooses to forego a safe vaccine for a highly contagious, serious illness they are very much "leaving their lane".

How is this not obvious - they pose a health threat to all and sundry! How does this not put them squarely in my lane?.

Let me be clear: I very much agree that it is their choice - no argument from me on this. But surely, and especially within a Christian community, appropriate rebuke is on the table.

If this were not an insanely contagious disease, I would be with you 100% on this.

But with a contagious disease, there is more than freedom of choice involved; there is also social responsibility.

You left social responsibility at the curb when going to parties, social gatherings, church function without common sense precautions, and thinking a vaccination would be the end all and cure all for your desire to congregate in mass. Well guess what, you ain’t got immunity. What you got at best is when you get this strain (or the next one) You probably won’t get it bad enough to die. Well goodie goodie for you. See most people are trying their best to stay away from other people, huddle down with kith and kin and live each day to its absolute fullest.

so in reality, you are in my lane. By your blatant disregard for our rights, for these constant insistence’s on getting vaccinated, you are treading on my rights, and you otta be ashamed. So go and take your shot and leave us alone or I will run you down.

 

[just-want-peace]

Let's be clear: this is conspiracy-theory thinking. You are asking people believe that there is a systematic, intentional plot to mislead the public about covid deaths.

So I suppose the jammed ICUs are full of actors in on the game?

I suppose the grieving relatives at the graveside are actors as well?

I suppose the refrigerated trucks outside hospitals are full of people who died from something other than covid?

I suppose the excess mortality in 2020 of at least 3.3 million people worldwide in 2020 is a statistical fluke?

I suppose the highly trained medical experts are all in on it as well, even though they are risking their livelihoods if the plot is discovered?

I’m not advocating anything other than to show me some proof of YOUR claims. All I am doing is addressing the mass of contradictions out there. You are free to believe whatever you want.

All your “supposing” does not address why you consider me a “conspiracy theorist”. Are you convinced that every covid death WAS due to covid? Do you not consider this “pandemic”, at this point in it’s existence, extremely politicized?

Have I said it’s not dangerous, or contagious or should not be taken seriously????? No, no & no!! But why should I NOT consider that politicians of the liberal stripe have gone overboard to exercise power/control/intimidation over their “subjects”. This fact is as obvious as the sun rising except possibly to those who agree with them.

 

[rlvaughn]

That is true. Employers usually have conditions of employment...So yes, I agree that if we do not meet the requirements of employment we can lose our jobs.

Whether an individual feels forced, compelled, etc. certainly does not depend on whether it is an employer or the government. However, you continue to mix the issue of employers creating/having a Covid vaccination as a condition of employment and a government entity mandating vaccinations.

Earlier this year, the Houston Methodist hospital system suspended almost 200 staff members who would not agree to follow their new policy requiring employees to be vaccinated against Covid-19 (I think some may have just resigned rather than submit to vaccination). The state of Texas did not order the hospitals to do so; the Houston Methodist system made the policy themselves. However, the situation in California is different; the requirement to be vaccinated has been ordered by a state entity. I see a distinct difference in the two situations.

 

[JonC]

Whether an individual feels forced, compelled, etc. certainly does not depend on whether it is an employer or the government. However, you continue to mix the issue of employers creating/having a Covid vaccination as a condition of employment and a government entity mandating vaccinations.

Earlier this year, the Houston Methodist hospital system suspended almost 200 staff members who would not agree to follow their new policy requiring employees to be vaccinated against Covid-19 (I think some may have just resigned rather than submit to vaccination). The state of Texas did not order the hospitals to do so; the Houston Methodist system made the policy themselves. However, the situation in California is different; the requirement to be vaccinated has been ordered by a state entity. I see a distinct difference in the two situations.

It goes to feelings and desires.

The order does come from a state entity in the case of CA (and a federal entity on the case of the military), but employees can find different jobs if it violates their convictions.

In SC the state (DHEC) makes restaurants meet certain conditions. They are not forced to do is, but to operate in SC it is necessary.

I am for all health services requiring vaccinations.

 

[Salty]

Lets continue in Christian charity

 

[JonC]

Lets continue in Christian charity

Define "continue"