It would be fine by me to close it.
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Pro-vax and Anti-vax Totalitarianism
- Thread starter JonC
- Start date
It would be fine by me to close it.
Anti vax totalitarianism is a myth
So I take it that you are good with the state and federal governments setting standards requiring people to be vaccinated. What if they were to require everybody to be vaccinated in order to be employed?
Depends. I am good with the federal government setting standards for federal entities (when I joined the Army I could not opt out of vaccines....they liked us up and shot us with am air injector).
I have no problem with health agencies requiring vaccinations for their employees (they have to look after the best interest of their patients). We may disagree with what may be determine to be in the best interest, but it is not our call.
As far as air travel, I would certainly be in favor of requiring a vaccination. All data so far points to varient viruses coming from mainly unvaccinated populations (mainly India and Africa).
When it comes to companies like Walmart.....well....I leave that up to the individual company. The market will determine their actions. If they cannot get customers or employees then they will change their policy.
So if the federal government required everyobe to be vaccinated in order to be employed then that would be overstepping its authority. That is up to the employer...we aren't communists, after all (Godfather reference).
This is a false statement.
I am not saying all who reject the vaccine are "anti-vax", but both sides that are trying to force their opinions on others (either by forced vaccination-banning vaccination or persuading others either way) are the same.
That you do not recognize these agendas has no bearing on facts.
Recently there was tge claim that if you get vaccinated you will probably be dead within 5 years. There is misinformation on both sides - people trying to impose their agendas on others via deceit.
What do you mean by the phrase "companies like Walmart"? For example, you mention air travel. Is an airline business not a company "like Walmart"? What about a company like an airline determining their own policies and letting the free market determine the outcome? What difference are you making between one company and another?
I jumped into this thread with a question to you about mandates. Let me back up and state I am in agreement with this in your OP (but not some of the defense you have made in the thread).
So you seem to create a category error. "Totalitarianism" in reference to "anti-vaxers" is them "trying to talk people out of getting a vaccine." I do not try to talk anyone out of getting a vaccine (or into getting it), but I think people have a right to do so. Where some go off the reservation is when they make up crazy stuff that is not true. Notice, however, "totalitarianism" in reference to "pro-vaxers" is "forcing people to get a vaccine". These two things are not equal. I am not aware of any "anti-vaxers" trying to use force rather than persuasion to try to keep people from getting a vaccine; but I am aware of "pro-vaxers" using means other than persuasion to try to make people get a vaccine.
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I single out airlines because of international and interstate travel.
You are wrong. I did not start a thread about anti-vaxe totalitarianism. Please re-read the title and OP.
To clarify - you do not believe the thread claiming that most vaccinated people will die within 5 years is focused at disuading people from getting vaccinated???
What I am saying is tge federal government requiring the vaccine for federal positions is not mandating all be vaccinated. My experience in the military is one example.
Another example us the DOE may mandate vaccines (I hear talk but don't know the future). At our site we had over 2,000 covid cases. We have had deaths. But only the unvacvinated had serious effects. We have to maintain the facility (no choice....we can't close down) so I would agree with requiring vaccines as a condition of employment.... at least for essential personnel. Looking at the data here, unvaccinated employees could not only be detrimental to the mission but dangerous to the surrounding community.
Then you are in favor of the free market weighing in on the choices a business makes, until you are not in favor of it?
And? The title is "Pro-vax and Anti-vax Totalitarianism". You are talking about people trying to force their wills on others. Explain what you are trying to say here that I am missing?
Of course it is. But that is a category equivalent of claiming most unvaccinated people will get sick and die...
It is not a category equivalent of a state entity telling people you must be vaccinated or lose your job.
No. I am in favor of the free-market system within each state. When it comes to unvacvinated travel via air we are talking about exposure and spread.
I agree about the equivalent of saying most will die within 5 years if unvacvinated ... both are ignorant claims and both are fearmongering. But that is what I mean by "pro-vax" and "anti-vax". I was responding to your comment that you were unaware of this anti-vax element.
We are trying to cover too much here - and perhaps talking past one another on a couple of points.
By "pro-vax and anti-vax I am not isolating people into groups based on their opinions. I am talking about groups that have an agenda to persuade people to their view regardless of actual facts (by using data manuplation, partial truths, and outright misinformation). I have seen this on both sides.
I believe we would agree these agendas are wrong.
The more interesting point is where we stand on mandates. I used the federal government while you seem to be asking about the state government.
My view is the state government should be first in the governance of its people. So if SC DHEC requires employees to be vaccinated then I'm good with that. Right or wrong these officials have the duty to consider the health of those within their area of responsibility. So I would not mind hospitals having to have its staff vaccinated.
If the DOE requires vaccination then my job would be dependent on being vaccinated. If you drive a truck you have to pass a physical. Fail tge physical - lose your job. If you work at the police station you cannot smoke pot. Smoke pot and lose your job. OR.....find a job that does not have those requirements.
Just to be clear Jon, you are not saying that this vaccination is an inoculation because that would imply a cure, correct. So now we have found out that it’s not curative but it could reduce symptoms. However it comes with a lot of potential side effects that also can harm the patient… and we do now have a history of people getting mysterious illnesses as a result of the shots. When you add to it that this country won’t even venture to explore any type of alternative treatment, could you not understand people’s skepticism regarding this whole vaccination issue? Then to add insult to injury, these mandates are now forcing people to make healthcare judgements about wether or not to work for companies that make mandates.
But that is not what I said. The distinction I made is between using persuasion (even falsely using fear and intimidation to try to convince) and using a mandate handed down by the government. No, I am not aware of any "anti-vaxers" who favor the government handing down a mandate to NOT be vaccinated.
I have not disagreed with this, but am making the distinction between attempts at persuasion (regardless of which "side" and even when using data manipulation, partial truths, and outright misinformation to persuade) and using the force of the power of government. Even your OP seems to make that distinction -- "either by trying to talk people out of getting a vaccine or by forcing people to get a vaccine."
I have referred to the state government because there is now a specific mandate associated with a state government (i.e. California) to a certain kind of business that their employees must be vaccinated.
I am not opposed to state governments requiring a vaccine for certain businesses.
What I am saying is this vaccination is like most vaccinations (flu, measles, etc) in that it provides protection from serious side-effects and death at a rate much greater than the risks associated with the virus itself.
From what I have read the US and other countries are pursuing other methods.
We always have to make decisions about our freedoms and employment.
Just reading the title of the thread, I will offer this...
It seems to me that the pro Vax are the most totalitarian of the 2 groups demanding everyone be vaccinated and demonizing those that don't.
Most anti-vaxers I know are are not demanding anything except they have a choice in the matter.
To parrot all the pro death abortion supporters, it's their body. Nobody else has any say over it.
It seems to me that the pro Vax are the most totalitarian of the 2 groups demanding everyone be vaccinated and demonizing those that don't.
Most anti-vaxers I know are are not demanding anything except they have a choice in the matter.
To parrot all the pro death abortion supporters, it's their body. Nobody else has any say over it.
I would have agreed until fairly recently. Perhaps it is out of fear, but the anti-vax agenda could be worse insofar as lying to people the loudest.
Actually, nobody knows the truth about it all.
And I do mean nobody.
We were all lied to about the effectiveness of the vaccine. How badly? Well, they just haven't come up with the real numbers yet.
There have been so many lies from so many sources, nothing anyone or any government agency says can be trusted. Both sides have an agenda, and at this point, the virus itself doesn't have a whole lot to do with it.
It depends on who you listened to. Those I considered did not lie to me, BUT I am very selective. I have not seen anything that was not considered in advance.Actually, nobody knows the truth about it all.
And I do mean nobody.
We were all lied to about the effectiveness of the vaccine. How badly? Well, they just haven't come up with the real numbers yet.
There have been so many lies from so many sources, nothing anyone or any government agency says can be trusted. Both sides have an agenda, and at this point, the virus itself doesn't have a whole lot to do with it.
Really?
What were you told was the effective rate of Pfizer and Moderna vaccines?
Further, what is it in reality?
Told? No. I didn't ask. I looked it up before making a decision.
Based on clinical trials, in people aged 18 years and older, the Moderna vaccine (the vaccine I took) was 94.1% effective at preventing laboratory-confirmed COVID-19 infection in people who received two doses and had no evidence of previously being infected with the virus. The actual numbers are provided from the trials.
The lie anti-vaxers tell is that the vaccine claims to be 94.1% effective - leaving out the part where this was in clinical trials.
What I read was the trials and results, including the side-effects.