With MB's post 61, it appears to me that his definition of "draw all men" fits the line of argument. Definitions and suppositions, the underlying reason we can't just plot out textbook examples of logical arguments .
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Proof Calvinism is the only true doctrine
- Thread starter MB
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The Father draws all persons that He intended the Cross to have saved!
If men never hearing the gospel or had the opportunity to hear then men would have a legitimate excuse.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
As you can see the Bible says they have no excuse because of being manifested with the knowledge of God. You would think that if they truly did not hear and there was no reason that they could not then this passage would be false. God cannot lie. For my self because I believe in God I take His Word very seriously. If His word says so, it it's true no matter what. I believe God is far above my self in every way What ever He says is true/ It has to be that way or I would not believe at all.
MB
Why ? When according to what you believe He saves men whether they are agreeable or not. Why draw those whom He is going to save any way? Does He have to have you right in front of Him in order to save?
MB
We just do it to rattle the chains of Arminians. God does and when we preach, somehow God just DRAWS all those that He predestined and called and justified and glorified back when he foreknew them.
[..]
Nope, I have it on irrefutable Arminian opinion that “ALL means ALL” and Jesus said "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." [John 12:32] ... so that argument CANNOT be a strawman.
(Are you attempting to argue that ALL does not mean “all men without exception”?)
Arguing "all" does not mean "all" is the purview of Calvinists.That's #1 on my list.
However, it appears that you are now arguing that "draw" means the same thing as "heard of". MB said that all people know there is a creator. Knowing there is a creator and being drawn by Christ is not the same thing. Your argument fails.
Your opinion of me doesn't matter to me at all.The pride I was speaking of is looking at one's self and saying Look at me and what I have done. He keeps bringing up the same thing and says he was a drug dealer and he defended his territory. I know drug dealers I've spoken with them about Jesus. The ones who can't let go of there past always repeat it. Before I was saved I committed sins to. Not as dramatic as what the man claimed yet those sins I kept bringing to memory are the very one's that I repeated. We can't wipe our memories away but we can make them dim by controlling our thoughts." That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord." ( 1 Corinthians 1:31 )
" But he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord." ( 2 Corinthians 10:17 )
"Glory" = "boast" in these passages.
" to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved." ( Ephesians 1:6 )
No one who is truly saved has anything to boast in, except His mercy and grace ( Titus 3:5-6 ).
Pride gets tossed out the window, MB.
For someone to say that they are proud of the Lord, is not a sin...
It's quite the opposite.
MB
He is God He doesn't have to do anything but save them and they'll be saved according to your belief. You have failed to give a proper explanation.Don't you believe you are saved so you can believe? The drawing to Christ is the first step in the process. And you don't really know why.
MB
All in Adam does not equal All in Christ.
The context determines who the all is.
Agreed.
Now, does "knowing there is a creator" mean the same thing as "being drawn by Christ"?
You don't need Saving faith if you are already saved. Saving faith is for the guy who wants to be saved.
Rom_8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom_5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Luk_7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
It's strange that faith can save. even Peter had faith before he was converted.
Luk_22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
Rom_4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
These verses all say the opposite of what you believe. When are you going to believe scripture instead of what Calvinist say.
MB
The
All in the context in the scriptures would refer to those who are the elected and chosen by God in Christ!
No...a person has a God given knowledge that he is responsible to God.
Being drawn is the special work of the Spirit of God.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
How were the people living in the Western Hemisphere drawn to Jesus in the First Century (after Jesus WAS lifted up)?
They are part of “all people without exception”. Arguing “heard of” vs “drawn” sounds like splitting semantic hairs unless you can explain how “those that have not heard” were still drawn to Jesus.
Do you have a # for semantics?
atpollard
Well-Known Member
That is what I was telling him. I asked if they were DRAWN to Jesus and he replied that they KNOW there is a creator.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I wasn't looking for a fight, MB.
I know that.
I see him trying to tell you that by the grace of God, he is not what he once was.
Again, the opposite of human pride.
That rule does not apply for those who are truly in Christ.
Letting go of one's past does not make a person born again...God does ( John 1:13, James 1:18 ).
It is evidence of a person being born again.
The Lord makes them dim, in the light of His glory and grace.
Ever heard the song, "Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus"?
Whoever wrote it, knew the Lord, personally.
Controlling our thoughts doesn't get the job done...one must be born again for any real change to take place.
How does the Bible say that a person becomes born again?
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COMMON SENSE.
I'm thousand times greater Calvinist than any here. First let me preach the Gospel.
"IF God Likes you than you will be saved and if he hates you then you are toast" THE END. That is all that need be said to reprobates.
Now I pray and ask God to elect more folks, Since I believe in the ridiculous notion there is nothing I nor THEY can do to better their chance at salvation and Gnostic understanding.
You guys keep proving how much you don't believe your own teaching by trying to convince otherwise what you swear can only be convinced by God.
Which is true! It would take divine intervention for me to follow some NAZI PAGAN idea of GOD who damns hates folks unconditionally and damns then even before creating them.
It's all on God. Phew great, what are you bugging me for again?
What I sense is just load insincerity and caving in to peer pressure, Folks get trained into telling other what they want to hear.
The best proof would have been spontaneously conversion of one hearing the gospel and then being confused because no one around was Calvinist. Never happens. You need someone over the shoulder to suggest calvinism or it will never happen.
If we have a group of children. tossem the bible and say ok learn it and good luck. They are not going to come back Calvinist.
You guys have failed repeated to pull your teachings out of scripture.
From the perspective of starting with the WRITINGS. piece by piece getting the words defined and laying out the teachings, it is impossible to teach Calvinism from Scripture.
You guys start with TULIP and then make it a mission to find Tulip in scripture.
How about you start with scripture, I challenge you recreate TULIP at the very basic level of all defined terms.
For example show scripture for Calvinist dictionary. Cause in it ALL does not mean ALL, World does not mean World.
And give us the word you would need if wanted ALL to mean ALL or WORLD to mean WORLD
What would it have to say?
There is a good reason there is NO greek CALVINIST. There was no fooling them the stuff was written in their language.
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