Prophecy fulfilled today! Jesus is coming soon.

[freeatlast]

You show the very weakness of your position by your "fool" remark.

However, my emphasis was on the tiresome soon-to-come aspect.

My fool remark only applies to those who deny scripture. I assume you are not one of them. As to the soon term that too is biblical.

 

[asterisktom]

My fool remark only applies to those who deny scripture. I assume you are not one of them. As to the soon term that too is biblical.

Fine. And I agree that "soon" is biblical. That is what made me into Preterist - too many "soon"s and "shortly"s.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Dispensationalism teaches that Jesus Christ came to establish the Messianic Kingdom for the Jews, they rejected Him, and He established the Church instead. Leading dispensationalists such as Chafer, Walvoord, Pentecost. Ryrie, teach that the Church was not mentioned in the Old Teatament, that the Church Age is an interruption in God's primary purpose for Israel, and that the Church is a parenthesis or intercalation during which God suspends His plan for Israel. In simpler words the Church for which Jesus Christ died is simply a parenthesis?????

Apparently Scofield had not been schooled sufficiently in dispensational thought to know that the Church was the unmentionable in the Old Testament because he writes in his Introduction to the Song of Solomon the following:.

Scofield Reference Notes (1917 Edition)

Song of Solomon - Introduction


Nowhere in Scripture does the unspiritual mind tread upon ground so mysterious and incomprehensible as in this book, while the saintliest men and women of the ages have found it a source of pure and exquisite delight. That the love of the divine Bridegroom should follow all the analogies of the marriage relation seems evil only to minds so ascetic that martial desire itself seems to them unholy.

The interpretation is twofold: Primarily, the book is the expression of pure marital love as ordained of God in creation, and the vindication of that love as against both asceticism and lust--the two profanations of the holiness of marriage. The secondary and larger interpretation is of Christ, the Son and His heavenly bride, the Church ( 2 Corinthians 11:1-4 refs).​

http://www.biblestudytools.com/comm...-of-solomon/song-of-solomon-introduction.html

Yes, and since the church is merely a parenthesis in history, and thus just a temporary distraction, let's all pray that God will make haste to get it out of here, then the Dome of the Rock can be blown up, the Temple rebuilt, and animals dragged to the altar and their throats sliced. Hallelujah! Let the blood flow through the Temple and down the steps! Once the church is gone, God can then concentrate on the real focal point of history -- the nation of Israel.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes, and since the church is merely a parenthesis in history, and thus just a temporary distraction, let's all pray that God will make haste to get it out of here, then the Dome of the Rock can be blown up, the Temple rebuilt, and animals dragged to the altar and their throats sliced. Hallelujah! Let the blood flow through the Temple and down the steps! Once the church is gone, God can then concentrate on the real focal point of history -- the nation of Israel.

If this was as you post......the verses dealing with the blood of the cross would say He shed His blood for Israel,,,,and yet they speak of the chritian Israel....not the Hebrew Israel....because jew or gentile only find life in Him.

28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood

even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

 

[evangelist6589]

The world is a thousand times better off than it was 2,000 years ago, brother.

Wholesale slaughter was not uncommon then. Murder was a recreational PASS-TIME in Rome.

The most civilized nation in the world in that day fed people to lions for entertainment.

Immorality was a MILLION times more rampant then. The Romans, I am told, did not even have a WORD for "homosexual" because it was not thought of as a distinct sexual practice from heterosexuality. It was EXTREMELY common for Roman men to have "boy lovers" and the nation did not frown upon this.

The most civilized nation in the world had massive sex temples built for the pagan gods serviced by a thousand prostitutes, male and female, where it was very commonplace to have massive orgies nightly.

If Matthew 24 requires the world to become more immoral before Jesus can return then we've got a while.

These are things many dispensationalists do not know.

I do remember reading many horror stories of how the Jews & Christians were treated in the book "The Handwriting on the Wall", "Slave", and "Christ among other gods." One woman had all her children tortured and murdered in front of her. Then they hung the corpse of a slain baby around her neck. She was marched to the top of the temple and then thrown down! What a horrible way to murder someone! Yes Christians were fed to Lions, burned at the stake, etc.. Its amazing how much of history I wish I would have remembered from World Civilizations. The assyrians were also a bad bunch that liked skinning people alive!

 

[evangelist6589]

Yes the Bible does tell us and what it tells us is happening right before our eyes. The news media only confirms it.
In Mathew 24 the Lord told us of the events that lead up to His coming. We are up to the point where people are being murdered for their faith in Jesus. Earth quakes are happening at an alarming rate. Natural disaster is certainly on the rise.

Missionaries are already saying that this prophecy has already happened.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
MB

Amen! Preach it brother, preach it!

 

[evangelist6589]

Well I'm not reformed.



Then don't post them in the General Forum. Honestly if you only want your assumptions reinforced and your conclusions to be unchallenged then general discourse with a group of people probably isn't for you. However when you openly (and continually) post drivel that conflates singular events in a small community in the middle of Western civilization and conclude that this clearly must be a harbinger of the end for all humanity I'm going to challenge that statement.

Then attempting to dismiss proper critique by stating that only those who agree with you can post (which you didn't mention above) is a foolish way to avoid intellectual challenge. It smacks of the hubris of anti-intellectual fundamentalism. This is no way to comport oneself amongst fellow believers.

If you can't handle deeper level discussions than maybe you should refrain from posting ridiculous eschatological speculation and then call for conclusions.

I am not saying that the Harbinger book is all Biblical. The author no question stretches the text. However there are valid truths contained in the book.. But yes I agree with you about the IFB movement. You are right I should allow open discussion.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

The world is a thousand times better off than it was 2,000 years ago, brother.

Wholesale slaughter was not uncommon then. Murder was a recreational PASS-TIME in Rome.

The most civilized nation in the world in that day fed people to lions for entertainment.

Immorality was a MILLION times more rampant then. The Romans, I am told, did not even have a WORD for "homosexual" because it was not thought of as a distinct sexual practice from heterosexuality. It was EXTREMELY common for Roman men to have "boy lovers" and the nation did not frown upon this.

The most civilized nation in the world had massive sex temples built for the pagan gods serviced by a thousand prostitutes, male and female, where it was very commonplace to have massive orgies nightly.

If Matthew 24 requires the world to become more immoral before Jesus can return then we've got a while.

These are things many dispensationalists do not know.

I am a dispy myself, and I must concur with Luke here....I explain this to people all the time. Everyone thinks they are living in the worst possible generation. History does not suggest as much. I think no civilization in History was ever as gratuitously violent as the Assyrian Empire for instance. And yes, pederasty was incredibly common amongst the Romans and it appears (the Spartans too). Too many fellow dispy's do not realize these things...To many fellow dispy's think 3 things:

1.) The Victorian Era actually was the pure society they liked to pretend they were
2.) Everything should be compared to the 1950's
3.) The 1950's were truly as wonderful as they remember.

I am still a dispy because I believe the Scriptures teach as much...but I still think we might indeed be here a while.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Actually replacement theology is a dispensational myth, or is it allegory, or metaphor? Whatever! it is mythical; and it is the dispensational error of Darby/Scofield that has only been around a hundred years or so, sometime after Margaret Macdonald had her vision.

This has always been a specious line of argument for several reasons:

1.) It is simply bad History...Darby may have created some of the buzz-words we now use today, but that does not establish that much of the Theological background behind it has not been believed for much longer than that. (It has). Read the book 1000 AD, which is a book by an actual historian as opposed to some mere A-mil polemicist, and it is an interesting expose' of how the Populace at that time, had many of the same thought processes surrounding much of our modern day 21st Century dispensationalists and how a very enterprising Pope used it to his advantage.

2.) This argument rests upon an assumed premise that whatever might have been believed by previous generations of Christians, must, by necessity be more accurate than any understandings which are more modern. This is assumed by people who apparently fail to realize that the apostle Peter himself was subject to certain heretical views (Judaizer) which needed some correction.

3.) It fails to take into account the very REAL possibility that of all things...Prophecy might be one thing that the passage of time sheds MORE and not LESS light on.

I never did understand how so many dispy-dissers actually thought they had a cogent point with this argument.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Yes the Bible does tell us and what it tells us is happening right before our eyes. The news media only confirms it.
In Mathew 24 the Lord told us of the events that lead up to His coming. We are up to the point where people are being murdered for their faith in Jesus. Earth quakes are happening at an alarming rate. Natural disaster is certainly on the rise.

Missionaries are already saying that this prophecy has already happened.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
MB

So, have all the Christians through time been wrong to look for the immediate return of Christ since all of the signs had not been fulfilled?

Jesus may come come back before anyone reads this post, or He may not return till 2255. That is not my concern. My concern is to fulfil these words that Paul wrote to Pastor Titus:

'For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.'

The looking should motivate us, not the speculate about headlines, but to deny ungodliness, live soberly, and live righteous and godly lives in this corrupt age.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

If this was as you post......the verses dealing with the blood of the cross would say He shed His blood for Israel,,,,and yet they speak of the chritian Israel....not the Hebrew Israel....because jew or gentile only find life in Him.

Icon, I agree. Did you not get my post?

 

[Luke2427]

I do remember reading many horror stories of how the Jews & Christians were treated in the book "The Handwriting on the Wall", "Slave", and "Christ among other gods." One woman had all her children tortured and murdered in front of her. Then they hung the corpse of a slain baby around her neck. She was marched to the top of the temple and then thrown down! What a horrible way to murder someone! Yes Christians were fed to Lions, burned at the stake, etc.. Its amazing how much of history I wish I would have remembered from World Civilizations. The assyrians were also a bad bunch that liked skinning people alive!

Right.

But do you see my point?

This shooting is startling to us because of it's heinousness- as well it should be. But the very fact that it IS startling to us speaks of the amiableness of our society as a whole.

This kind of killing would have been commonplace thousands of years ago in civilized nations.

The point is that this is NOT a fulfillment of prophecy. It is NOT evidence that mankind is getting colder or more sinful.

The evidence is to the contrary. The Church has beaten back immorality and injustice to a large degree over the past 2,000 years. The Gospel has made the world a MUCH better place in which to live than it was before the Gospel took the world by storm.

And I expect the Gospel to take over the world before the Jesus returns.

I believe that this is what the Bible teaches.

 

[freeatlast]

And I expect the Gospel to take over the world before the Jesus returns.

I believe that this is what the Bible teaches.

Can you give some scripture to back this up?

 

[Luke2427]

Can you give some scripture to back this up?

Goodness yes!:thumbsup:

And let me quickly add that this is not some fringe viewpoint that I am purporting here. It was THE PREDOMINANT viewpoint of protestantism before World War I. Afterwards the charismatics really made dispensationalism popular.

1 Corinthians 15:24-26
"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."

Christ's reign began at his resurrection. He charged us, the Church, to carry the Gospel, the good news of his reign, and baptize the nations.

Our Great Commission is to take the world for Christ; to expand his Kingdom reign over all the nations via the preaching of the Gospel .

Paul says here that the end will not come until all rule and authority is put down.

Now the dispensationalist will argue that this putting down of all authority takes place after the "rapture" before the Second Coming.

But that's not what the Scripture says,

Hebrews 1 says:

8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom... 13But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Christ is not leaving that throne, He is not leaving the side of His Father until his enemies be made his footstool.

There then is no rapture when Christ will leave his throne and go snatch away his church which failed miserably in her commission to make disciples of the nations.

Christ will return when the Kingdom of God he came preaching has expanded over the globe.

There are dozens and dozens more, but I think that'll get us started.

 

[OldRegular]

This has always been a specious line of argument for several reasons:

1.) It is simply bad History...Darby may have created some of the buzz-words we now use today, but that does not establish that much of the Theological background behind it has not been believed for much longer than that. (It has). Read the book 1000 AD, which is a book by an actual historian as opposed to some mere A-mil polemicist, and it is an interesting expose' of how the Populace at that time, had many of the same thought processes surrounding much of our modern day 21st Century dispensationalists and how a very enterprising Pope used it to his advantage.

Error has not been limited to the last two centuries or so but it is stretching the facts to state that Classic Dispensationalism has been around for centuries. There were a number of errors/cults/heresies that were developed during the 19th Century; Seventh Day Adventism, The Watchtower Society [Jehovah's Witnesses], Mormonism, Christian Science, and Dispensationalism.

2.) This argument rests upon an assumed premise that whatever might have been believed by previous generations of Christians, must, by necessity be more accurate than any understandings which are more modern. This is assumed by people who apparently fail to realize that the apostle Peter himself was subject to certain heretical views (Judaizer) which needed some correction.

Well Jesus Christ does tell us:

John 14:16-18
16. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17. Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

John 16:7-15
7. Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9. Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10. Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11. Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

God is not the author of confusion. The Holy Spirit speaks/reveals only that which is truth though some do not hear very well. Jesus Christ clearly tells us this in the above passages. God is not going to leave His people in limbo for 1800 years. History shows this. There have always been dissenters from Rome; the Reformation is perhaps the ultimate evidence of this. And of course there is error/heresy in the "Christian" Community today.

3.) It fails to take into account the very REAL possibility that of all things...Prophecy might be one thing that the passage of time sheds MORE and not LESS light on.

I have said repeatedly that, while I will debate eschatology with dispensationalists, they are entitled to be wrong. I don't care that much other than their obsession with Israel is affecting the foreign policy of this country. I do however, in all honesty, get sick of hearing "Rapture", Rapture" endlessly. The major error/heresy of classic dispensationalism is their insistence that the Church is simply an interruption in God's plan for Israel. Dispensationalists don't talk about it much and considering how disgusting that error/heresy is I understand why. Michael Wrenn presented an excellent characterization/spoof of this heresy in an earlier post. And then, of course, there is the heresy of hyper dispensationalism.

Thankfully there is movement away from classic dispensational doctrine regarding the Church. Progressive dispensationalists are apparently approaching the historic premillennial position regarding both the Church and the millennial reign.

I never did understand how so many dispy-dissers actually thought they had a cogent point with this argument.

Classic dispensationalist is in my opinion an elitist doctrine. One must be schooled in the dispensations. By that I mean if a Christian begins reading Scripture he reads of Covenants, not dispensations. Sadly, because of the Scofield Reference Bible many have been incorrectly schooled. I suspect that fully 90% of those who talk about the Rapture and the Great Tribulation have never heard of the "parenthesis" Church.

Have any dispensationalists defended the "parenthesis" Church on this Board?

 

[OldRegular]

Goodness yes!:thumbsup:

And let me quickly add that this is not some fringe viewpoint that I am purporting here. It was THE PREDOMINANT viewpoint of protestantism before World War I. Afterwards the charismatics really made dispensationalism popular.



Christ's reign began at his resurrection. He charged us, the Church, to carry the Gospel, the good news of his reign, and baptize the nations.

Our Great Commission is to take the world for Christ; to expand his Kingdom reign via the preaching of the Gospel over all the nations.

Paul says here that the end will not come until all rule and authority is put down.

Now the dispensationalist will argue that this putting down of all authority takes place after the "rapture" before the Second Coming.

But that's not what the Scripture says,

Hebrews 1 says:


Christ is not leaving that throne, He is not leaving the side of His Father until his enemies be made his footstool.

There then is no rapture when Christ will leave his throne and go snatch away his church which failed miserably in her commission to make disciples of the nations.

Christ will return when the Kingdom of God he came preaching has expanded over the globe.

There are dozens and dozens more, but I think that'll get us started.

Well said and so true. It is very sad when a doctrine will teach that the Church for which Jesus Christ died will fail in its mission and be "snatched" away. Some say secretly and at the "midnite cry"!:tear::tear:

 

[freeatlast]

Goodness yes!:thumbsup:

And let me quickly add that this is not some fringe viewpoint that I am purporting here. It was THE PREDOMINANT viewpoint of protestantism before World War I. Afterwards the charismatics really made dispensationalism popular.
1 Corinthians 15:24-26
"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."


Christ's reign began at his resurrection. He charged us, the Church, to carry the Gospel, the good news of his reign, and baptize the nations.

Our Great Commission is to take the world for Christ; to expand his Kingdom reign over all the nations via the preaching of the Gospel .

Paul says here that the end will not come until all rule and authority is put down.

Now the dispensationalist will argue that this putting down of all authority takes place after the "rapture" before the Second Coming.

But that's not what the Scripture says,

Hebrews 1 says:
8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom... 13But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Christ is not leaving that throne, He is not leaving the side of His Father until his enemies be made his footstool.

There then is no rapture when Christ will leave his throne and go snatch away his church which failed miserably in her commission to make disciples of the nations.

Christ will return when the Kingdom of God he came preaching has expanded over the globe.

There are dozens and dozens more, but I think that'll get us started.

Luke, the Corinthian passage has nothing to do with a rapture or the church taking over the world. It has to do with what Christ is going to do and then the end will come Neither is that about what the church is going to do. Again it is a personal pronoun "he" which is speaking of Christ Himself. Christ is going to do this not the church.

The Hebrew passage is not peaking of any rapture either or the church and the gospel. It is speaking of the supremacy of Christ. Nothing in those passages suggest that the church by the gospel is going to take over the world.

 

[agedman]

Right.

But do you see my point?

This shooting is startling to us because of it's heinousness- as well it should be. But the very fact that it IS startling to us speaks of the amiableness of our society as a whole.

This kind of killing would have been commonplace thousands of years ago in civilized nations.

The point is that this is NOT a fulfillment of prophecy. It is NOT evidence that mankind is getting colder or more sinful.

The evidence is to the contrary. The Church has beaten back immorality and injustice to a large degree over the past 2,000 years. The Gospel has made the world a MUCH better place in which to live than it was before the Gospel took the world by storm.

And I expect the Gospel to take over the world before the Jesus returns.

I believe that this is what the Bible teaches.

First, the gospel has never "taken the world by storm" and it never will. Certainly, there have been pockets of revival, and a great historical evidence of the spread of the gospel (the knowledge of there being a Christ). But, Christ did not promise that His return was conditioned upon the world becoming controlled by the believers. Just the opposite - the believer has no fellowship with this world - but are set at enmity.

The centuries of teaching of the world becoming better and better until the kingdom of Christ is ushered in was destroyed by WWI and obliterated by WWII.

Folks can now recognize that huge devastating work in which the world will be subjected as God pours out the bowls of wrath.

Certainly various area and continental scourges have happened in the past, but not the global wide destruction of all living creatures and people in the sea, not the annihilation of whole continents in one hour. These were but images of wild imaginations according to some preachers of the past centuries. Such was beyond their understanding. A person just didn't have their bodily form vanish before their bones hit the ground. But, now, we see the shadows of the once living in Nagasaki and Hiroshima - no body, but the shadow is left.

There is one that holds back the evil - that is as the Scriptures state - the Holy Spirit. The church, as an agent of the work of the Holy Spirit is engaged in that struggle. "For we wrestle not against..."

There is no Scriptures to state that "the gospel will take over the world before the return of Christ." Certainly, the gospel will be PREACHED to the world, but even in this modern day, it seems foolish to think that everyone is going to be converted and the world systems will be "Christian." Churches can't even get along within their own assemblies, how much less is the world going to be "ruled" by such folks as that!

There is not a single prophecy that even indicates that to be the future estate.

Rather, the Scriptures proclaim that when Christ returns (in like manner as He ascended) that He shall "rule with a rod of iron." That He will meet out punishment to any who refuse to worship and bring offerings to Him. That the believers (those who come with Him at His return) shall reign with Him.

 

[OldRegular]

Rather, the Scriptures proclaim that when Christ returns (in like manner as He ascended) that He shall "rule with a rod of iron." That He will meet out punishment to any who refuse to worship and bring offerings to Him. That the believers (those who come with Him at His return) shall reign with Him.

If there were going to be a earthly Jewish millennium as the Classic dispensationalists claim then Jesus Christ would have to rule with a rod of iron.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Of course there will be no earthly millennial. When Jesus Christ returns there will be a general resurrection, the Great White Throne Judgment, and the New Heavens and New Earth where the redeemed will dwell with God forever.

 

[asterisktom]

Rather, the Scriptures proclaim that when Christ returns (in like manner as He ascended) that He shall "rule with a rod of iron." That He will meet out punishment to any who refuse to worship and bring offerings to Him. That the believers (those who come with Him at His return) shall reign with Him.

I intend to answer other posts today, but this one just jumped out at me.

This is such a glaring misapplication of prophecy, though very much ingrained in modern Christianity. So many errors, hard to know where to begin:

Assuming those offerings - and they are sin offerings "according to the Law" - will still be given, we have Christ inaugurating a Levitical system of worship. He would be deprecating His own Melchizedekkan Priesthood and re-instituting the very priesthood and system He professedly came to destroy!

What is wrong with this picture? Everything.