Just saying here that what the pope considers to "save him" may/may not be what the Bible and God says saves!
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Protestant exclusion from RC communion
- Thread starter Michael Wrenn
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Just saying here that what the pope considers to "save him" may/may not be what the Bible and God says saves!
If you do your homework on Quebec, it is one of the most Catholic "nations" in the world. It is like a "nation" within a nation. Often they have fought for sovereignty and it is still put on the table from time to time. French in this largely French province is a required language, as is religious study in the Catholic religion.
At the statue of Ste. Anne, (the grandmother of God), an idol set upon a high number of steps, Catholics crawl on their hands and knees to go and make an offering to this idol. Steeped in superstitions the RCC has a tremendous hold on these people. The city of Montreal is located on an island, and stands alone, somewhat immune to most of the superstition influences of the rest of the province of Quebec.
http://www.virtualtourist.com/trave...Quebec-Ste_Anne_de_Beaupre_Basilica-BR-1.html
http://www.moytura.com/stanne.htm
To worship the grandmother of God is very popular, and goes directly against the Ten Commandments.
You bow down to your statues.
Here is what it says here:
1 Kings 6:23 And within the oracle he made two cherubims of olive tree, each ten cubits high.
--As I already described, this is the construction of the Temple. It is the construction of the holy of holies, that part of the Temple that the high priest could enter into one time out of the year on the Day of Atonement, and only then it was to make a sacrifice for the atonement for the people. No one bowed down to any idol. The churbim (angels), especially the space between the two, symbolized God's presence. It wasn't. It was purely symbolic.
The RCC actually bows down to the stations of the cross, prays to them, and that is worship and idolatry. You have not done serious study of the Ten Commandments have you?
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
How do you know that if you don't know what criterea the Pope considers himself to be saved by?
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
I was watching the news of a Catholic Woman calling herself a Cultural Catholic but didn't believe everything the Church teaches. I would say this is the majority of People in Quebec. Which means they really aren't even Catholic. They are only Catholic in the cultural sense but not even in the faith. If they truelly worship the Grandmother of someone then they are sinning however bowing down doesn't necissarily mean worship. Statues remind us of who people were like pictures. Its not the statues that are honored but the People. Much like a crucifix. We honor Jesus in the crucifix. Not the wood from which it was made. And I know the Ten Commandments very well. For instance it says
Which is the verse you keep citing as your problem with the Catholic Church yet ignore the fact that by your standard God himself broke the law when he told the Israelites to
Which contradicted his law which he commanded when he said
So you worship a God who breaks his own law!!!! If thats the case this God isn't worth worshiping!!!! Making his creation do something he can't even do himself!!! Unless you are wrong in your interpretation of what God meant by what he said in the law. What is the real issue? Well the law says.
Since we know the ark was treated with Defferance and people bowed before the Ark though it was covered in the Holy of Holies and they couldn't directly see it the bowing down must have then in effect the replacing of God with image itself. That isn't what happens in Catholic Churches. We know they are just statues and not God itself. So Catholics bow down before God and worship him as God. The statues are images to remind us of God like the Mercy seat on the ark of the covenant. God doesn't have a problem with images he has a problem with being replaced. But you don't need and image to do that. Anything you choose over God becomes your God.
WestminsterMan
New Member
Hmmm...
Genesis 19:1-5 (New International Version)
1 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 "My lords," he said, "please turn aside to your servant's house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning."
"No," they answered, "we will spend the night in the square."
Genesis 23:6-8 (New International Version)
6 "Sir, listen to us. You are a mighty prince among us. Bury your dead in the choicest of our tombs. None of us will refuse you his tomb for burying your dead."
7 Then Abraham rose and bowed down before the people of the land, the Hittites. 8 He said to them, "If you are willing to let me bury my dead, then listen to me and intercede with Ephron son of Zohar on my behalf
Genesis 23:12-13 (New International Version)
12 Again Abraham bowed down before the people of the land 13 and he said to Ephron in their hearing, "Listen to me, if you will. I will pay the price of the field. Accept it from me so I can bury my dead there."
Genesis 27:27-30 (New International Version)
27 So he went to him and kissed him. When Isaac caught the smell of his clothes, he blessed him and said,
"Ah, the smell of my son
is like the smell of a field
that the LORD has blessed.
28 May God give you of heaven's dew
and of earth's richness—
an abundance of grain and new wine.
29 May nations serve you
and peoples bow down to you.
Be lord over your brothers,
and may the sons of your mother bow down to you.
May those who curse you be cursed
and those who bless you be blessed."
30 After Isaac finished blessing him and Jacob had scarcely left his father's presence, his brother Esau came in from hunting.
Genesis 33:1-4 (New International Version)
1 Jacob looked up and there was Esau, coming with his four hundred men; so he divided the children among Leah, Rachel and the two maidservants. 2 He put the maidservants and their children in front, Leah and her children next, and Rachel and Joseph in the rear. 3 He himself went on ahead and bowed down to the ground seven times as he approached his brother.
4 But Esau ran to meet Jacob and embraced him; he threw his arms around his neck and kissed him. And they wept.
1 Kings 1:31
Then Bathsheba bowed low with her face to the ground and, kneeling before the king, said, "May my lord King David live forever!"
Exodus 11:8
All these officials of yours will come to me, bowing down before me and saying, ‘Go, you and all the people who follow you!’ After that I will leave.” Then Moses, hot with anger, left Pharaoh.
Oh well...
WM
Please using Scripture prove your assertions here. Where in the Bible do you have people bowing down before the Ark?
Uzziah looked into the ark and was killed immediately.
Who bowed down before the Ark? Who? Who?
Quit making baseless and false assertions.
And I suppose all of the above were graven images that these men had made??Hmmm...
Genesis 19:1-5 (New International Version)
1 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 "My lords," he said, "please turn aside to your servant's house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning."
"No," they answered, "we will spend the night in the square."
Genesis 23:6-8 (New International Version)
6 "Sir, listen to us. You are a mighty prince among us. Bury your dead in the choicest of our tombs. None of us will refuse you his tomb for burying your dead."
7 Then Abraham rose and bowed down before the people of the land, the Hittites. 8 He said to them, "If you are willing to let me bury my dead, then listen to me and intercede with Ephron son of Zohar on my behalf
Genesis 23:12-13 (New International Version)
12 Again Abraham bowed down before the people of the land 13 and he said to Ephron in their hearing, "Listen to me, if you will. I will pay the price of the field. Accept it from me so I can bury my dead there."
Genesis 27:27-30 (New International Version)
27 So he went to him and kissed him. When Isaac caught the smell of his clothes, he blessed him and said,
"Ah, the smell of my son
is like the smell of a field
that the LORD has blessed.
28 May God give you of heaven's dew
and of earth's richness—
an abundance of grain and new wine.
29 May nations serve you
and peoples bow down to you.
Be lord over your brothers,
and may the sons of your mother bow down to you.
May those who curse you be cursed
and those who bless you be blessed."
30 After Isaac finished blessing him and Jacob had scarcely left his father's presence, his brother Esau came in from hunting.
Genesis 33:1-4 (New International Version)
1 Jacob looked up and there was Esau, coming with his four hundred men; so he divided the children among Leah, Rachel and the two maidservants. 2 He put the maidservants and their children in front, Leah and her children next, and Rachel and Joseph in the rear. 3 He himself went on ahead and bowed down to the ground seven times as he approached his brother.
4 But Esau ran to meet Jacob and embraced him; he threw his arms around his neck and kissed him. And they wept.
1 Kings 1:31
Then Bathsheba bowed low with her face to the ground and, kneeling before the king, said, "May my lord King David live forever!"
Exodus 11:8
All these officials of yours will come to me, bowing down before me and saying, ‘Go, you and all the people who follow you!’ After that I will leave.” Then Moses, hot with anger, left Pharaoh.
Oh well...
WM
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
WestminsterMan
New Member
You're not getting off that easily, DHK. YOU equate bowing/kneeling to worship. Thus, by your own position (if you are to remain consistent that is), you must necessarily hold that all of those listed in the scriptures that I provided are guilty of idolatry.
Now if wish to amend that position...
WM
WestminsterMan
New Member
Oopssss....
is it saved by grace ALONE by faith in jesus ALONE, no sacramental means of Grace, nor good works?
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
BTW Catholics believe by grace alone.
And are you saying now that Jesus doesn't want you to be baptized? Or jesus doesn't want you to study scripture. Or that Jesus doesn't want you to discipline your life into one of prayer? Are you saying that sanctification is not a part of Salvation?
Wow.
saying that it is the result of already being saved by God, NOT a cause of it!
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There is a difference between USING the same Biblical terms but EMPTYING the Biblical meaning of that term and that is precisely what Rome does with the term "grace" and the term "works." (Rom. 3:24-26; 11:6; Eph. 2:8-10; Tit. 3:5)
In the context of justification the term "grace" is precisely contextually defined to exclude all works but those produced in the life and Person of Jesus Christ - Rom. 3:24-26.
1. "FREELY by grace" - The term translated "freely" is elsewhere translated "without a cause" - Rom. 3:24
2. The contextual CAUSE is instead restricted to what God provided in the Person and work of jesus Christ which only serves as the OBJECT of faith rather than any PRODUCT of faithfulness - Rom. 3:25-26.
Hence, to claim that Rome believes "by grace alone" is true just as you don't add the words "as Biblically defined" to it.
That is correct! Jesus does not want anyone to be baptized in order to be regenerated or justified.
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Thinkingstuff
Active Member
OH so he doesn't want you to be baptized? Too funny and sad. I guess Jesus wasted his time teaching the disciples to obey what he commanded them to. You just take out of the bible what ever you want and throw it away don't you. Jesus said
He wasn't kidding. He was dead serious and he didn't say it as an option.
the Bible states that we SHOULD, RCC says that we MUST, in order to get saved!
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
So your wasting time being baptized. No need for Jesus to command it. Jesus was just be superfluous. I gues half of what he said we shouldn't take serious either.
But to be born from above you need to be baptized you must be born of both water (baptism) and the Spirit.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
So did Peter
Peter didn't make baptism optional. And neither did Jesus
note the word commanded and baptism is included in this word commanded. It isn't optional.
False religions "typically" require their advocates to pervert and distort not merely the scriptures but the statements of their opponents. That is precisely what you are doing. I never said that Jesus did not want us to be baptize as you falsely report my words. You know I didn't say that but you choose to pervert my words just as you do God's Words. I said, Christ did not want anyone to be baptized in order to be regenerated or justified. You may disagree with my statement but at least report it correctly.
Why is it that everytime a catholic uses and quotes the bible it ends up sounding same as a JW or Mormon using it to prove their doctrines?
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