Proverbs 18:17 in Dealing with the sin of professed believers online.

[JonC]

JonC

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This thread is not concerned with false assumptions.It is about hearing two sides of a story to get to the truth.
17:any story sounds true until someone tells the other side and sets the record straight.

[QUOTE]I am sure most who say those things about others do so out of ignorance. We should extend grace to them.

The OP was talking about sinful behavior.

I had a member of an online forum make false accusations against me, slander me, insult me, and troll me. That is sinful behavior. I insulted him in return (which is sinful behavior).

God convicted me of that sin and my reluctance to forgive that man.

I apologized to him and I forgave him for sinning against me. Since that time forgiveness has been my primary activity towards him.

He kept on even after the Administration of that board proved him wrong and was banned several times for his sinfulness.

But I forgave him each time. I believe that is how we are to interact with sinners in an online board. We report their behavior, forgive them, and move on.

The reason I say this is Christ said if we do not then we are not forgiven by the Father and remain in our sins.

And God has blessed me through my obedience even in such a small thing as an online disagreement. I have had fellowship across boards that I never would have had were I to have continued in disobedience. God has made this man the object of a prayer group on two boards, the focus of a small study prayer grouo, and a prayer need in my adult Sunday group. In other words, we are blessed in spending specific time in prayer for this man and this man is (hopefully) being convicted of his unforgiving and sinful spirit because God disciplines His own.

So that is my response from experience. When others lie about me, when they make false accusations, when they insult me, troll me... Rather than responding in kind I choose to forgive them because God has forgiven me and I am a Christian.

 

[MartyF]

The OP was talking about sinful behavior.

I had a member of an online forum make false accusations against me, slander me, insult me, and troll me. That is sinful behavior. I insulted him in return (which is sinful behavior).

God convicted me of that sin and my reluctance to forgive that man.

I apologized to him and I forgave him for sinning against me. Since that time forgiveness has been my primary activity towards him.

He kept on even after the Administration of that board proved him wrong and was banned several times for his sinfulness.

But I forgave him each time. I believe that is how we are to interact with sinners in an online board. We report their behavior, forgive them, and move on.

The reason I say this is Christ said if we do not then we are not forgiven by the Father and remain in our sins.

And God has blessed me through my obedience even in such a small thing as an online disagreement. I have had fellowship across boards that I never would have had were I to have continued in disobedience. God has made this man the object of a prayer group on two boards, the focus of a small study prayer grouo, and a prayer need in my adult Sunday group. In other words, we are blessed in spending specific time in prayer for this man and this man is (hopefully) being convicted of his unforgiving and sinful spirit because God disciplines His own.

So that is my response from experience. When others lie about me, when they make false accusations, when they insult me, troll me... Rather than responding in kind I choose to forgive them because God has forgiven me and I am a Christian.

I have to deal with lots of people at my job in a very public way and whenever I go out, there is almost no anonymity. I have, at times, been accused of things I did not do. Sometimes I feel as though the accuser actually believes what they accused me of. It's not really a bad-faith accusation, but it is a false accusation nonetheless.

There are some very public versions of this including Meredith Kercher. The Kercher family still believes that Amanda Knox murdered her. It's obviously a false accusation but it is not really a bad-faith accusation. I have sympathy for the Kercher family.

I don't think I'm qualified to give advice on this matter but I thought I would share a viewpoint.

 

[JonC]

I have to deal with lots of people at my job in a very public way and whenever I go out, there is almost no anonymity. I have, at times, been accused of things I did not do. Sometimes I feel as though the accuser actually believes what they accused me of. It's not really a bad-faith accusation, but it is a false accusation nonetheless.

There are some very public versions of this including Meredith Kercher. The Kercher family still believes that Amanda Knox murdered her. It's obviously a false accusation but it is not really a bad-faith accusation. I have sympathy for the Kercher family.

I don't think I'm qualified to give advice on this matter but I thought I would share a viewpoint.

In my case it was a member of another board making false accusations against me. Since he was on the board before I was on the board he somehow thought I had literally followed him there (that I had joined the board because he was a member). It was that stupid. I had said things that he disagreed with and he assumed I meant things I did not. When I explained what I did mean he rejected my explanation. But I think that he was just turned that way (I think he looked to be offended and enjoyed causing trouble).

But that's in the past. I was using it as an example. You make an excellent point - the guy may have believed the accusations he said were true (given his posts, I suspect he did/ does). But his false belief has no bearing on the truth.

So what do we do?

I forgave him and moved on. I have not had much communication with him on the topic so I do not know where his heart is on the matter. Last I heard he was unwilling to move on but was obsessed with playing a victim.

I think that our responsibility is to forgive, ask for forgiveness if we had responded harshly (I did respond harshly and asked for forgiveness). And then move on and leave him or her to God.

I figured it "takes two to tango". If I forgive him and move on then the ball is in his court. I've left the game entirely.

 

[George Antonios]

Here we are discussing this, while some believers are out preaching at the risk of far greater pains.

 

[JonC]

@MartyF

Here's the thing Marty, we were purchased by the blood of Christ. We are His, not our own.

Sure someone made false accusations about me. But so what? I have to go back to the fact that I was purchased not by gold or sliver but by the precious blood of Christ.

For me to make a big deal about it is to trample that blood which was shed for me.

I have wrestled with Matthew 6. These are Jesus' words - If you do not forgive men their trespasses neither will your Father forgive your trespasses".

To be honest I have trouble fitting this into my theology at times. But I have to take it as true and for what it says.

So I had no choice but to forgive the man who made false accusations against me. I like to think it was unintentional, but it really does not matter. He is forgiven.

 

[JonC]

Here we are discussing this, while some believers are out preaching at the risk of far greater pains.

Sure. It's a discussion board. You started a discussion/ debate over "foreknowledge" while some believers are out preaching far more significant ideas at the risk of far greater conflict.

I think that given our contemporary setting (given the use of technology) it is appropriate to discuss how we deal with people who profess to be Christian but act as if they are not. It is also appropriate to discuss how believers should handle these things on such forums.

It is at least more applicable (maybe not as interesting, I don't know) than is discussing the definition of foreknowledge.

How we deal with people who confess to be Christians but are unforgiving, unkind, unloving, disobedient, etc. is probably a very relevant discussion.

 

[George Antonios]

Sure. It's a discussion board. You started a discussion/ debate over "foreknowledge" while some believers are out preaching far more significant ideas at the risk of far greater conflict.

I think that given our contemporary setting (given the use of technology) it is appropriate to discuss how we deal with people who profess to be Christian but act as if they are not. It is also appropriate to discuss how believers should handle these things on such forums.

It is at least more applicable (maybe not as interesting, I don't know) than is discussing the definition of foreknowledge.

How we deal with people who confess to be Christians but are unforgiving, unkind, unloving, disobedient, etc. is probably a very relevant discussion.

Just pointed out that it feels silly, and it still feels silly.

 

[JonC]

Just pointed out that it feels silly, and it still feels silly.

It may. I think that topics "feel silly" to people when they dismiss the relevancy of the topic being discussed.

I believe Iconoclast's thread is a good topic. I see (perhaps by virtue of being on staff) Christians who behave towards other Christians wrongly.

I think some do this because they believe online conduct does not count.

Other related topics would be enjoying movies or video games that glorify sin. Like Christians who are accusers if the brethren, what does this say about the spiritual state of the believer?

I think our theology needs to address these issues. When it comes to online pornography it often does. But what if other online sins?

It really is not as silly a topic as you suspect.

 

[George Antonios]

It may. I think that topics "feel silly" to people when they dismiss the relevancy of the topic being discussed.

I believe Iconoclast's thread is a good topic. I see (perhaps by virtue of being on staff) Christians who behave towards other Christians wrongly.

I think some do this because they believe online conduct does not count.

Other related topics would be enjoying movies or video games that glorify sin. Like Christians who are accusers if the brethren, what does this say about the spiritual state of the believer?

I think our theology needs to address these issues. When it comes to online pornography it often does. But what if other online sins?

It really is not as silly a topic as you suspect.

It's more the sense of it eventually devolving into a whiny persecution thing.

How to address sin online (like people? You don't.

I think maybe the disconnect here for me is that maybe you guys' main fellowship comes from online?

 

[JonC]

It's more the sense of it eventually devolving into a whiny persecution thing.

How to address sin online (like people? You don't.

I think maybe the disconnect here for me is that maybe you guys' main fellowship comes from online?

Not at all. At least, not until lately (my wife and I usually meet with a small study group several times a month, in a church group Wed. And Sunday, and service Sunday). Lately, though, the only fellowship outside of family has been Sunday at church because of COVID.

But several are also involved with online forums.

I agree with you that we do not address sins on such formats. We are accountable to one another in terms of a congregation. But we do not even know one another here.

Online forums are good for learning about other views. That is about it.

As far as devolving into a whiney persecution thing, it may as we have a few snowflakes around. But I doubt it will.

The OP is a hypothetical and I chose another board as an example.

 

[Iconoclast]

JonC,

The OP was talking about sinful behavior.

I had a member of an online forum make false accusations against me, slander me, insult me, and troll me. That is sinful behavior

The op indicates that the other person would have to be here to give a balance here. What if your account is not the correct account?

Proverbs 18:17
He that is first in his own cause seemeth just;
but his neighbor cometh and searcheth him.

17:any story sounds true until someone tells the other side and sets the record straight.

Your repeated posting of how you vindicated yourself may or may not be true. Unless you invite that other person to come on here and speak freely
we will never know. it could well be you are the guilty party, that is why Solomon wrote this Proverb.

He kept on even after the Administration of that board proved him wrong and was banned several times for his sinfulness.

Again a one-sided account.

 

[JonC]

Yes, it is a one sided account. That does not matter (take it or leave it). And we were both guilty. The OP is about sinning online. You can doubt my experience but I offered it only as illustration.

Those who know me would not doubt my word. If anyone does, no biggie. We do not know one another.

I am not going to call the guy up and bring up old disagreements that are in the past. If he has repented it is unnecessary. If he has not it would be for him an opportunity to sin. I have forgiven him and moved on. He was afforded the same opportunity. Where he stands is between him and God. I have been forgiven my part (I returned his insults) and have no desire to descend into the muck.

The point was not the illustration but point the illustration makes.

The OP asks what to do with people who sin online in how they treat others.

I see two choices:

1. Demand they admit to what you think they have done, demand an apology, do not forgive, seek to be vindicated or justified. This is called pride and is of the flesh. Those who do this "will not be forgiven by the Father", "walk in darkness", and "will not inherit the kingdom of God".

2. Forgive the other. It does not matter if you are right or wrong. Speak kindly and seek to uplift the other person. Respond gently in love. Those who do this are called "son's of God", "walk in the Spirit", and "will see God".

Ephesians 4:29-32

Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.

 

[JonC]

Iconoclast

I re-read your post. I think you misunderstood me. It was not an argument. The man was proven to have made false accusations and I was proven to have responded to him by insulting him.

I never said I vindicated myself. That is kinda the point. I was also wrong because I responded to his false accusations and insults by insulting him. That was just as sinful as his actions against me.

For a time he and I were at odds. But God convicted me that I was acting with an unforgiving spirit.

I never sought vindication. I apologized to him for insulting him and I forgave him for sinning against me. I do not know if he ever repented or if he remains in sin. But that is between him and God.

What matters (to me) is that I am without guilt in the matter. Sure, I am burdened for the guy. And I pray for him. But ultimately he is not my responsibility.

I have been blessed for extending forgiveness. I have been forgiven and have no desire to return to that place. God gives us grace as we move from glory to glory (forward, not backwards).

That is the appropriate response to people who sin on online forums. We are to be obedient, for if we love Jesus we will obey His commandments.

I think the answer to the OP is that simple. Obey God.

 

[Reformed]

Yes . Once again you see through to their expected end. and deception
They can create a smokescreen of lies and deception, but God will not be mocked.

God is never mocked. The thing about scripture is that it reveals the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Those who are spiritual understand this and are content to allow the word to do its work, though the power of the Holy Spirit. In the end they will be vindicated, but the glory will belong to God.

 

[JonC]

God is never mocked. The thing about scripture is that it reveals the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Those who are spiritual understand this and are content to allow the word to do its work, though the power of the Holy Spirit. In the end they will be vindicated, but the glory will belong to God.

Amen.

So much regarding the continued sin of professing Christians can be boiled down to a lack of fear of God. I know we like to say "fear" only means respect, but I do not think this is correct.

The issue of the OP is men do not fear God. They read passages that say the unforgiving person will not be forgiven, that the ungodly will perish, that the unloving will not inherit the kingdom of God and they dismiss them because they are "saved".

We need to remember Peter wrote this passage to Christians:

1 Peter 1:17-19
If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.

 

[Revmitchell]

Proverbs 18:17
He that is first in his own cause seemeth just;
but his neighbor cometh and searcheth him.

17:any story sounds true until someone tells the other side and sets the record straight.

In a recent thread attention was being given to "professed" Believers who were being spoken about in a bad light.
In the providence of God, I know of a very similar situation,almost identical you could say that would really help develop this thread.
I had offered one post on the thread , but it has vanished, and I am told I cannot take part in the thread.
Did anyone else get such a message?
Nevertheless as we bring relevant scriptures to light this thread will be a fine compliment to the other as we wrestle to find a scriptural resolution to some of these issues.

Has anyone been in this situation online before?

I and a few others were on a forum that would put Calvinists on a "coffee break" where they could not post publically but "behind the scenes"the censors would discuss with them why they needed to rewrite what they posted,lol
This went on usually until the Calvinist left.
I know of a case where a moderator edited and rewrote a post so he could lie and say the Calvinist posted it,lol.
How desperate. Others knew about it, and were partaker of that sin.
Has something similar happened to you
Lets get to some truth here.

Yes we know poor little calvies are a persecuted bunch.

 

[JonC]

Yes we know poor little calvies are a persecuted bunch.

I read an article a few years ago dealing with Christians and victim-hood. I wish I could remember the article but I cannot. It pointed out that several Christian groups seem to have a need to create enemies, perhaps because they do not recognize the true enemy of the Church. Anyway, often times they create enemies from within and most of the time these enemies are figments of their imagination.

I'll try to find the article. It was interesting but I am not sure that I remember enough about it to find it. That's the problem with growing older. I can remember articles and quotes....but too often not where to find them or where they came from. I'm like the writer of Hebrews - I'd say "it is written somewhere...."

 

[JonC]

Going off of @Reformed 's post, I think that these passages apply to the OP and Christian behavior even with just an online presence:

John 13:33-35 "Little children, I am with you a little while longer. You will seek Me; and as I said to the Jews, now I also say to you, 'Where I am going, you cannot come.' "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

Matthew 6:14-15 "For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. "But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

Romans 14:10-13 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD." So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God. Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this—not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way.


1 John 2:3-6 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

Romans 12:1-2 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

1 John 4:20 If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.

Ephesians 6:10-12 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might. Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

1 John 3:13-18 Do not be surprised, brethren, if the world hates you. We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death. Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. But whoever has the world's goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him? Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.

Galatians 5:18-26 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.


The question is - How is your walk? Is having an online presence, for you, an opportunity to sin? When arguments get heated, do you apologize and forgive or do you harbor resentment? Is your online presence godly? Does it testify to your faith, to Christ?

 

[George Antonios]

Not at all. At least, not until lately (my wife and I usually meet with a small study group several times a month, in a church group Wed. And Sunday, and service Sunday). Lately, though, the only fellowship outside of family has been Sunday at church because of COVID.

But several are also involved with online forums.

I agree with you that we do not address sins on such formats. We are accountable to one another in terms of a congregation. But we do not even know one another here.

Online forums are good for learning about other views. That is about it.

As far as devolving into a whiney persecution thing, it may as we have a few snowflakes around. But I doubt it will.

The OP is a hypothetical and I chose another board as an example.

Fair enough.

 

[Iconoclast]

Now, in an effort to get this thread back to the actual OP>
We invite Charles Bridges to offer from His commentary of Proverbs,

17. He that is first in his own cause seemeth just; but his neighbour cometh and searcheth him. We have lately had a rule against judging others. (Verse 13.)
Here we are warned against justifying ourselves.

Self-flattery is our cherished nature; highly valuing our fancied excellences; very blind to our real imperfections.

So ready are we to place our own cause in a strong light ; and sometimes, almost unconsciously, to cast a shade over, or even omit, what might seem to balance on the opposite side.


It is so difficult to state facts and circumstances with perfect accuracy, where our own name, or credit is concerned. Hence, our cause, coming first, seemeth just.


1 Chap. xvii. 8, 23. Comp. xix. 6. 2 Gen. xxiv. 30-33. 3 Ibid. xxxiii. 1-11. 4 Gen. xliii. 11. 5 Judg. iii. 17, 18. 6 1 Sam. xxv. 18-27. 7 Ib. ix. 7. * Nu?n ga>r a]rxh>n e]xw tou? maqhteuesqai>. † See PAXTON'S Illustrations, ii. 29. 296 EXPOSITION OF THE BOOK OF PROVERBS.

But, according to the proverb, ‘the first tale is good till the second is heard.' Our neighbour, acquainted with the real case, cometh and searcheth us, exposes our fallacy, and puts us to shame.

Often has the tale of wrongs from a hard-hearted overseer, landlord, or creditor, roused our indignation, and perhaps provoked our remonstrance. But the searching process of the story on the other side has shewn us the wrongness of a hasty, one-sided judgment.


Saul made himself appear just in his own cause. The necessity of the case seemed to warrant the deviation from the command. But Samuel searched him, and laid open his rebellion. (1 Sam. xv. 17-03.) Ziba's cause seemed just in David's eyes, until Mephibosheth's explanation searched him to his confusion.* Job's incautious self-defence was laid open by Elihu's probing application. (Job, xxxiii. 8-12.) An eloquent advocate may easily make a bad cause coming first seem just. But the plaintiff is always right, till the defendant's case has been opened. Yet the true rule of justice would be, to judge neither to be right, till both sides have been heard. Let the whole evidence be sifted; and often the plausible cover is swept away by a more searching investigation. (Acts, xxiv. 5, 12.) Judges are bound to "consider, take advice, and speak," (Judg. xix. 30); carefully guarding against prejudging the cause, till the whole has been fully before them; else he that is last in the cause comes with disadvantage, though it may be to cause of right. In our own cause, always be alive to conviction. Watch against a self-justifying spirit. Cultivate the spirit of self-distrust. Balance our enemy's statement against our own prejudices. Judge as under the eye of God, and with the sincere anxious prayer to lay ourselves open to his searching disclosure of hidden evil. Deceit ill any form never answers its end. " A conscience void of offence both towards God and man" must be our great exercise. (Acts, xxiv. 16.)

Charles Bridges gets this verse and zero's in on the telltale actions of the offending person.