Proverbs 18:17 in Dealing with the sin of professed believers online.

[JonC]

JonC

Since you insist on inserting yourself in this thread, and here suggest I misunderstand the Proverb, I will answer and show how once again it is you who do not understand the proverb and indicates it was written with someone like you in mind.


Actually no, it is you. What does the proverb say?

Proverbs 18:17
He that is first in his own cause seemeth just;
but his neighbor cometh and searcheth him.

17:any story sounds true until someone tells the other side and sets the record straight.

So what does JonC say?

So the answer is no. I will not drag the guy here

Why JonC does this does not matter, but the fact is he violates the proverb.
So JonC will not ask this person to participate? Do we have any evidence this person exists?....no
JonC in this series of posts is in direct violation of this proverb, by only giving one side of the story as if it is the whole story.


This has nothing to do with this proverb.

Here JonC gives one side of the story.
What if the man gives a different account , rather than this one sided account?

If the other man comes here, what if he says, JonC is a liar and in fact JonC lied, then covered his sin by more lies, and was so good at lying he fooled the staff?
Such a testimony would be devastating to JonC and this never ending sea of posts.
JonC goes on to proclaim both were guilty, but what if only JonC were guilty and he slanders the other man?
This is why unless this man is identified and can give his side JonC needs to stop posting one side of the issue.

The Bible says that we are to submit to the authorities appointed over us (1 Peter 2). With online Christian forums this authority is the Staff (the Christian administration). Each time those appointed to judge such issues incorporated Proverbs 17:18 (they listened to both sides, judged the evidence, and made a decision). This was 3 different times with difference people, and every time they came to the same conclusion.

It is not up to this board to sit in judgment (the board is unable to see changes, deleted posts and threads, ore- edits, ect. BUT THE STAFF CAN) . And this issue has already been closed.

Both he and I were wrong.

I had a reputation of arrogance, pride, responding in kind, insulting others,changed my behavior (not at first, but after 3 different Christian panels provided the same verdict). I repented and apologized for my part. I forgave the man for falsely accusing me. And I was forgiven.

This man also has a bad reputation. Over 2 boards he has accumulated around 40 warnings by over 7 different staff members for inappropriate behavior, false claims, insults, attacking Christians, and such. He has been banned over 8 times. He has a reputation of arrogance, pride, abusineness, slander, falsely accusing Christians who disagree with him, hatred, and obsession. He is known as a trouble maker by staff and members on at least 2 boards.

Both he and I were guilty. He made false accusations (I suspect based on assumptions) and I responded by insulting him. As far as I know he has never forgiven me, has never repented, and remains in sin. But he is not accountable to me. Over 10 Christians have pointed out his sin. What he does now is between him and God...not me.

It would be a sin to invite him here to discuss what has already been settled because not only would it be gossip but it would add to his sin.

Most here know me to be honest. They know me to have been other things as well (hot headed, arrogant, insulting, ect). But for all my faults I strive to be truthful.

That said, if any other member here wants proof that this has been biblically adjudicated several times, IAW Proverbs 17:18, please feel free to PM me. I can prove this issue has been decided and both he and I were guilty.

But I will not reopen what has been concluded. I forgave him and it is in the past. I will not drag him here and provide a platform for him to sin. I love him too much for that and want the best for him. I want to see him reconciled to God.

 

[JonC]

would be devastating to JonC and this never ending sea of posts.

Two things:

1. Anyone who has been on staff (like Reformed) knows that they can see changes. I could not hide these things. This man was proven to have made false assumptions (at least) leading to false accusations. And I was proven to have responded inappropriately. Both he and I were guilty. I forgave him, repented, try my best to no longer respond that way, and have been forgiven by God. As far as I know he is still in sin.

2. Why would you want to devastate me? I have been truthful and will provide evidence to other members who question my integrity if they want to PM me. But I will not reopen an issue that three groups of Christian administrators closed just because you want to see the arguments on a public forum when the membership cannot even see objective evidence (changes, edits, deletions, etc.).

I just do not know why you are so hostile with me. I want the best for you and as I have told you I keep you in my prayers as you travel across the country. I also keep the man who falsely accused me in my prayers. I do not want anyone to be devastated and would never seek to devastate anyone (Christian or not). I do want the guy I was speaking of to be led to a godly sorrow leading to repentance. I would love to know him as a brother. I would think that you'd want the same for him.

EDIT: The reason I continue to post is in hopes that God will use something I post to lead the man I was speaking of to repentance. He frequents several forums and I hope he reads these and realizes I am trying to reach him not only to remind him that I have forgiven him but also that God will forgive him upon repentance.

It also gives me repeated opportunities to emphasize the necessity to be obedient to God, to obey His commands that we are to love one another, forgive one another, uplift and encourage one another rather than to seek our own justification, our own agendas, and belittle other people.

I am sure most members ignore this entire thread (I hope they do). I am posting for one person in the hope that at some point he reads this thread and God works in his heart.

 

[Iconoclast]

Once again this violates the proverb.

For example, what if it is true that the other man gives testimony that you have yourself been banned on at least 2 Christian boards?


What if He could show that you caused the initial sin, and never confessed or forsook that sin

What if he gave testimony that you were a stalker?

That you go on and on about this person and have 5 or 6 threads on the same topic would indicate an unhealthy obsession with him, even though you profess to love this person

You have brought this illustration here claiming it was settled, but in. reality if the initial offense was not dealt with but rather covered over,it is like a wound that is not cleansed, but infected and spreading.

That is why it is imperative that the second person would have to come along publically as you have post after post derided him in clear violation of the proverb.

To help out I will create a thread on Covering sin from Proverbs 28:13 that will show how unconfessed sin spreads like a cancer.

 

[Iconoclast]

JonC, \Two things:

1. Anyone who has been on staff (like Reformed) knows that they can see changes. I could not hide these things

.

My oldest son is a detective. Do you want me to have him have a person from cyber crimes look into this?What if he could produce a transcript of the exact actions taken, deleted, covered?

This man was proven to have made false assumptions (at least) leading to false accusations. And I was proven to have responded inappropriately.

This is your spin on it. No one here knows the initial cause, which only the other person could supply which is why the proverb needs to be observed.

Both he and I were guilty.

If the other man did not cause the initial problem which was not dealt with, then if he could show you bearing false witness, slander etc...It would not be equal even if in time the man got overheated and responded sinfully.
To just brush it off and suggest it is all equal is itself sinful covering of sin.

A parent sins against a child if they provoke that child to wrath. The same here, unconfessed sin provokes to wrath

I forgave him, repented, try my best to no longer respond that way, and have been forgiven by God. As far as I know he is still in sin.

God knows the heart and truth.

2. Why would you want to devastate me?

No one said that! Here is the quote in context of the other
man.
If the other man comes here, what if he says, JonC is a liar and in fact, JonC lied, then covered his sin by more lies, and was so good at lying he fooled the staff?
Such a testimony would be devastating to JonC and this never-ending sea of posts.

Hostile? Not really. Just reacting to what comes my way.

 

[JonC]

JonC, \Two things:

.

My oldest son is a detective. Do you want me to have him have a person from cyber crimes look into this?What if he could produce a transcript of the exact actions taken, deleted, covered?




This is your spin on it. No one here knows the initial cause, which only the other person could supply which is why the proverb needs to be observed.



If the other man did not cause the initial problem which was not dealt with, then if he could show you bearing false witness, slander etc...It would not be equal even if in time the man got overheated and responded sinfully.
To just brush it off and suggest it is all equal is itself sinful covering of sin.

A parent sins against a child if they provoke that child to wrath. The same here, unconfessed sin provokes to wrath




God knows the heart and truth.



No one said that! Here is the quote in context of the other
man.
If the other man comes here, what if he says, JonC is a liar and in fact, JonC lied, then covered his sin by more lies, and was so good at lying he fooled the staff?
Such a testimony would be devastating to JonC and this never-ending sea of posts.

Hostile? Not really. Just reacting to what comes my way.

I am an investigator for the Defense Counterintelligence and Security Agency (DCSA) (an agency under the Department of Defense). When a case has been adjudicated the result is final (it is not to be reopened just because the individual does not agree with the decision).

A good investigator will NEVER take one party's word for it (the party does not provide a transcript, but the transcript is obtained from the source....here this was done).

That is how Proverbs 18:17 applies. The issue is investigated (all sides are investigated) by the authority empowered to adjudicate the issue. It is not for the mass to judge but for those in the position, those who can listen to both sides AND see all of the evidence. This has been done.

The Bible tells us then that the fool despises reproof, but the wise man accepts correction. Both he and I were fools for while. He did not like the conclusion. I did not like the conclusion. But in the end I accepted their verdict because it was correct. He had most likely made assumptions (he had a tendency to believe he knew the "true meaning" of what people posted or did) but in the end he made false accusations. And I responded inappropriately by counter-attack.

God used this experience to teach me and show me that I was responding unkind, attacking the man, insulting the man, and being abusive. The fact that I was defending myself against false accusations did not matter. Sin is sin and I was wrong. I responded with hatred. I repented from that action, apologized for my part, and forgave the man for his part.

1. Both sides presented their case (Proverbs 18:17).
2. Those in authority with the ability to see the evidence adjudicated the case.
3. The authority gave a verdict - he had made false accusations and I had responded inappropriately.
4. He rejected the reproof and continued.

This happened three times (now that I think of it, it happened more than three times). EVERY time it was the same. Both sides presented their case, those in authority who could examine the evidence found he had made false accusations and I responded inappropriately, and he rejected reproof and continued.

The last time this happened I was convicted of my role, apologized, forgave him and was forgiven. Again, I am not a party in this issue. This is a past issue. I was using it as an example.

Why would you even imply that I'd lie about this????

 

[Iconoclast]

This is a violation of Proverbs18:17 as I have mentioned.
The root cause has not been addressed properly.
I did not accuse anyone, but said, What if? Because the other person is not here.
The thread on covering sin might prove to be helpful to the readers.

 

[JonC]

This is a violation of Proverbs18:17 as I have mentioned.
The root cause has not been addressed properly.
I did not accuse anyone, but said, What if? Because the other person is not here.
The thread on covering sin might prove to be helpful to the readers.

No. It is not. Proverbs 18:17 does not apply to begging to have two people justify themselves to others who are not in a position to render a just conclusion, who cannot see the evidence.

Again, the issue was weighed by the Administrations (over 3 times). They looked at things members could not. They proved he had made false accusations and I had responded inappropriately. Both sides were heard multiple times.

My point remains the same. As Christians we are to be obedient to God. Self-justification or vindication is no excuse to be disobedient to God.

This thread is becoming a plea to gossip about another person. The OP is begging that identify this man and drag him onto this forum so that the membership can listen to him and me try to justify ourselves for their pleasure. But this never belonged on the open forum (that is why it was handled by the Staff, by those who could see what members cannot).

The OP is also assuming that I am lying (or would lie). This is wrong. I am not saying that of the OP.

If you knew of the man then you would know he has a bad reputation (on multiple boards). He is known as a troublemaker. He has been banned more than anyone I know of. He does not have a good reputation, Iconoclast. He was found to have made false accusations multiple times (on at least two boards). Why would anyone here believe what he would say even if we were to have him here to justify his actions? He has become obsessed and has disqualified himself (at least for now) in regards to Christian discernment.

I was once right there with him. But while I left he remained the same (to my knowledge anyway). Last I heard he was still obsessed with sin.

Again....any other member can PM me and I can prove that he has been banned multiple times on two boards, that he has a bad reputation, has been warned over 30 times by over 7 staff members on two forums. I will not identify this man, but I can prove I am not misrepresenting anything.

And that is not even the issue. The issue is what do we do (biblically). The answer is that we obey. We apologize for our part, forgive the offender, repent, and are forgiven. It is that simple.

 

[JonC]

In order to violate Proverbs 18:17 the judge/ judges in authority would have to listen to one side of a two sided argument.

This did not occur.

What did occur, however, in my example is that both the man who falsely accused me and I rejected reproof and by definition were acting as fools. I understand that I was wrong. I ended up accepting (and appreciating) correction.

I can only speak of my part.

God convicted me through the decisions of the administration and with several passages. I apologized to the man and forgave him for making false accusations about me. And I was forgiven.

 

[Iconoclast]

In order to violate Proverbs 18:17 the judge/ judges in authority would have to listen to one side of a two sided argument.

This did not occur.

What did occur, however, in my example is that both the man who falsely accused me and I rejected reproof and by definition were acting as fools. I understand that I was wrong. I ended up accepting (and appreciating) correction.

I can only speak of my part.

God convicted me through the decisions of the administration and with several passages. I apologized to the man and forgave him for making false accusations about me. And I was forgiven.

This still a violation of the proverb. Now go ahead and p.m. me that information give me the name of the three boards and the handle or the name of the person and I'll look for myself and if it says what you say I'll come back and publicly announce that John C was correct if not I will also report that so just go ahead and p.m. me that information

 

[JonC]

This still a violation of the proverb. Now go ahead and p.m. me that information give me the name of the three boards and the handle or the name of the person and I'll look for myself and if it says what you say I'll come back and publicly announce that John C was correct if not I will also report that so just go ahead and p.m. me that information

This thread is becoming a violation of Scripture.. The proverb applies to those who are judging, to those who are in a position to judge, advocating a righteous judgment (consider both sides). Iconoclast is not in a position to judge the issue between members on this or other boards (unless he is an administrator on the other board). Other members who are not on staff are not in a position either.

You are asking for gossip. I will not play that game.

 

[JonC]

This still a violation of the proverb. Now go ahead and p.m. me that information give me the name of the three boards and the handle or the name of the person and I'll look for myself and if it says what you say I'll come back and publicly announce that John C was correct if not I will also report that so just go ahead and p.m. me that information

Here is a little quiz to show how things get assumed:

Q: Did I say this occurred on 3 boards?

A: No. I said that it was adjudicated at least three times (actually more) on a couple of boards involving at least 7 Christian administrators.

Q. Did I offer to p.m. anyone with information concerning this topic?

A. No. I said that members are free to pm me if they doubt my example.

Q. Did I offer to give you any information?

A. No, I said I would engage any other member via pm if they have any questions about the man’s reputation and the conclusion of those who adjudicated the complaints.

Q. Did I offer to provide the name of the person via p.m.?

A. No. I specifically said that I will not reveal the name of the person because this was an experience I went through and was using as an example. To provide a name would be to engage in gossip.

Q. Did I even hint that you would be an acceptable person to judge the situation?

A. No. I pointed out that only those who are in an administrative position could discern the truth because they can see any changes in posts, to include edited and deleted posts/ threads. This is important because many of the false accusations were assumptions involving deletions and edits.



I understand you believe to think it a violation of the Proverb, but it is ONLY if you take it out of context.

My example was from my own experience. I am not asking any member here to believe me. I believe that I have a reputation that most here will believe me. My faults are being insulting, arrogant, prideful, stubborn, not letting things (like this) go, and not controlling my tongue. But not dishonesty.

If they want to believe I am making stuff up (either the man’s reputation or that this has been adjudicated already) they are free to do so. It does not bother me. If they would like to pm me because it is a burning issue with them then they can.

I am not here to defend my actions. I was wrong to respond to that guy in the way I did. I allowed his false accusations bring up a sense of self-righteousness and pride in my own heart. And I’ve repented of this, apologized to him, and I am forgiven.

Since I am forgiven my part in this issue, why would I open it back up for debate?

Since it has been adjudicated by those in the position to judge both sides, why would I discuss it with those who are not in that position?


Brother, what you are seeking is gossip. It has nothing to do with Scripture.

And I have been forgiven. I am not an active member of the “issue”. Go seek out that guy. Deal with him, not me.

 

[Iconoclast]

Here is a little quiz to show how things get assumed:

Q: Did I say this occurred on 3 boards?

A: No. I said that it was adjudicated at least three times (actually more) on a couple of boards involving at least 7 Christian administrators.

Q. Did I offer to p.m. anyone with information concerning this topic?

A. No. I said that members are free to pm me if they doubt my example.

Q. Did I offer to give you any information?

A. No, I said I would engage any other member via pm if they have any questions about the man’s reputation and the conclusion of those who adjudicated the complaints.

Q. Did I offer to provide the name of the person via p.m.?

A. No. I specifically said that I will not reveal the name of the person because this was an experience I went through and was using as an example. To provide a name would be to engage in gossip.

Q. Did I even hint that you would be an acceptable person to judge the situation?

A. No. I pointed out that only those who are in an administrative position could discern the truth because they can see any changes in posts, to include edited and deleted posts/ threads. This is important because many of the false accusations were assumptions involving deletions and edits.



I understand you believe to think it a violation of the Proverb, but it is ONLY if you take it out of context.

My example was from my own experience. I am not asking any member here to believe me. I believe that I have a reputation that most here will believe me. My faults are being insulting, arrogant, prideful, stubborn, not letting things (like this) go, and not controlling my tongue. But not dishonesty.

If they want to believe I am making stuff up (either the man’s reputation or that this has been adjudicated already) they are free to do so. It does not bother me. If they would like to pm me because it is a burning issue with them then they can.

I am not here to defend my actions. I was wrong to respond to that guy in the way I did. I allowed his false accusations bring up a sense of self-righteousness and pride in my own heart. And I’ve repented of this, apologized to him, and I am forgiven.

Since I am forgiven my part in this issue, why would I open it back up for debate?

Since it has been adjudicated by those in the position to judge both sides, why would I discuss it with those who are not in that position?


Brother, what you are seeking is gossip. It has nothing to do with Scripture.

And I have been forgiven. I am not an active member of the “issue”. Go seek out that guy. Deal with him, not me.

yeah it looks looks like you can't produce what you say that's what it looks like to me. So once again it's a one-sided believe John Fairytale time without any backing whatsoever at any at any point name the board or whatever you want where did this take place

 

[JonC]

yeah it looks looks like you can't produce what you say that's what it looks like to me. So once again it's a one-sided believe John Fairy Tail time without any backing whatsoever at any at any point name th board or whatever you want where did this take place

That is fine.

Like I said, people are free to believe my example as a factual account of what happened to me (it is), or they can believe it was just a fictional story I used as an illustration.

I really do not care either way. I already told you, I was using my experience as an illustration (to answer the OP). I do not know why you got all caught up in the example.

 

[Iconoclast]

JonC,

The Bible says that we are to submit to the authorities appointed over us (1 Peter 2). With online Christian forums this authority is the Staff (the Christian administration). Each time those appointed to judge such issues incorporated Proverbs 17:18 (they listened to both sides, judged the evidence, and made a decision). This was 3 different times with difference people, and every time they came to the same conclusion.

It is not up to this board to sit in judgment (the board is unable to see changes, deleted posts and threads, ore- edits, ect. BUT THE STAFF CAN) . And this issue has already been closed.[/QUOTE]

This is Gossip and talebearing. You are not on the staff of these boards, so again you offer one side. Unless the other person verifies this, it is only talebearing

Both he and I were wrong.

One person caused the problem, before both did anything.

I had a reputation of arrogance, pride, responding in kind, insulting others,changed my behavior (not at first, but after 3 different Christian panels provided the same verdict). I repented and apologized for my part. I forgave the man for falsely accusing me. And I was forgiven.

This man also has a bad reputation. Over 2 boards he has accumulated around 40 warnings by over 7 different staff members for inappropriate behavior, false claims, insults, attacking Christians, and such. He has been banned over 8 times. He has a reputation of arrogance, pride, abusineness, slander, falsely accusing Christians who disagree with him, hatred, and obsession. He is known as a trouble maker by staff and members on at least 2 boards.

Violation of Proverbs 18:17

Both he and I were guilty.

One person caused it, not both, if the root sin was not dealt with

[QUOTE]He made false accusations (I suspect based on assumptions) and I responded by insulting him. As far as I know he has never forgiven me, has never repented, and remains in sin. But he is not accountable to me. Over 10 Christians have pointed out his sin. What he does now is between him and God...not me.

prov18:17 violation.

It would be a sin to invite him here to discuss what has already been settled because not only would it be gossip but it would add to his sin[/QUOTE].
Stop making excuses, It would not be a sin to hear the other person.

Most here know me to be honest. They know me to have been other things as well (hot headed, arrogant, insulting, ect). But for all my faults I strive to be truthful.

We need to ask this other person if he shares your opinion of yourself.

That said, if any other member here wants proof that this has been biblically adjudicated several times, IAW Proverbs 17:18, please feel free to PM me. I can prove this issue has been decided and both he and I were guilty.[/QUOTE]

That by your own words is an "invitation to gossip".

But I will not reopen what has been concluded.

Looks like a cover-up.

I forgave him and it is in the past. I will not drag him here and provide a platform for him to sin. I love him too much for that and want the best for him. I want to see him reconciled to God.[/QUOTE]

Looks like you are trying to cover up possible sin.Let him post here, or this has to be dismissed as hearsay.

 

[JonC]

JonC,



prov18:17 violation.

Proverbs 18:17 applies to judging, not presenting an illustration.

Neither party in an argument is required by Proverbs 18:17 to invite the other. The judges are required to explore all sides.

Why do you believe you have been appointed to judge what has already been adjudicated by those who have been appointed to judge such issues?

Why are you so obsessed with this?

 

[Iconoclast]

JonC,

Like I said, people are free to believe my example as a factual account of what happened to me (it is), or they can believe it was just a fictional story I used as an illustration.

You post as if that was the only options but there are more ,here is another
Or you are lying and covering sin. Unless we hear from the other person this cloud hangs over you.

I really do not care either way. I already told you, I was using my experience as an illustration (to answer the OP). I do not know why you got all caught up in the example.

Even though you disrupted the thread, yet you illustrate what a Prov.18:17 violation looks like.

 

[JonC]

JonC,



You post as if that was the only options but there are more ,here is another
Or you are lying and covering sin. Unless we hear from the other person this cloud hangs over you.



Even though you disrupted the thread, yet you illustrate what a Prov.18:17 violation looks like.

I think that my reputation stands. While I have been hot headed, insulting, arrogant and prideful in the past my integrity has never been an issue.

Members can decide. I don't care, it does not matter to me.

Proverbs 18:17 deals with judging, not presenting one's experience. You are wrong in your misuse of the verse.

Scripture does tell believers how to address conflict, but you are ignoring all of those passages to misapply a proverb.

 

[Iconoclast]

Proverbs 18:17 applies to judging, not presenting an illustration.

Neither party in an argument is required by Proverbs 18:17 to invite the other. The judges are required to explore all sides.

Why do you believe you have been appointed to judge what has already been adjudicated by those who have been appointed to judge such issues?

Why are you so obsessed with this?

No, false. Staff are volunteers.
I have been on 3 boards where they despise Calvinists and are slanted against them.I already mentioned the board where Cals are put on"coffee break" until pressured behind the scenes, or their posts are edited.Tom Cassidy was treated shabbily there and left.

So your "appeal " as if this is settled is all violating prov18:17...nothing is settled unless we hear from the other person.

 

[JonC]

No, false. Staff are volunteers.
I have been on 3 boards where they despise Calvinists and are slanted against them.I already mentioned the board where Cals are put on"coffee break" until pressured behind the scenes, or their posts are edited.Tom Cassidy was treated shabbily there and left.

So your "appeal " as if this is settled is all violating prov18:17...nothing is settled unless we hear from the other person.

Staff are in a position to make judgments regarding conduct on these types of boards.

Staff is nominated by the membership.

Yes, they are unpaid. So are many pastors but that does not negate their responsibility. You are not paid to be here either.

What you want us me to invite the guy here do you can listen to gossip. You do not have the tools to judge.

Staff can examine evidence where you cannot. Staff can see changes, deletions, and edits. You cannot.

You are not qualified biblically or by your role on these boards to be judge over the conduct of members here.

 

[Iconoclast]

JonC,

I think that my reputation stands. While I have been hot headed, insulting, arrogant and prideful in the past my integrity has never been an issue.

That is the crux of the issue,you say one thing, others say something else. It should not be this way but you persisting to spam the board makes that cloud loom larger and larger,

Members can decide. I don't care, it does not matter to me.

For something that does not matter to you it seems odd that you would post about 50 times in the last 5 days

Proverbs 18:17 deals with judging, not presenting one's experience. You are wrong in your misuse of the verse.

The commentators do not agree with you.

Scripture does tell believers how to address conflict, but you are ignoring all of those passages to misapply a proverb.

Again you offer one side, your side, I do not agree with your ideas ,neither do the commentators.