Proverbs 18:17 in Dealing with the sin of professed believers online.

[Iconoclast]

Yes we know poor little calvies are a persecuted bunch.

You say this because you are not the one affected.
It is not so much persecution like many really face daily.
It is small-minded persons, seeking to censor truth that think they are someone because they can abuse posters on a message board.

 

[JonC]

I do not think it matters how we appear. It matters how we are. And this is judged by what we do (our actions).

Truth is not subjective. It is objective. I believe Scripture is the criteria by which we measure doctrine and actions (it is, I believe, the “standard” of our faith and practice). Therefore, IMHO, we do not need to make assumptions or guess but we need to go to the Bible.

As @Reformed pointed out, Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.


What does the word of God say about dealing with other people?

It says “ Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you” (Ephesians 4:29-32)

It says “ "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." John 13:35

It says “If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.” 1 John 4:20

I do not think that we that we need to venture further. God’s word is living and active. God is NOT mocked.

And I say this as someone who has been the target of false accusations, insults, and slander. I struggled for a time, insulting my accuser, but God's word is sharper than my pride. I apologized and repented of my actions and I forgave the sins of my accuser. That is what the Bible says to do. And that is, IMHO, the answer to the OP. That is how we deal with the sins of professing Christians....whether on online forums or in our community.

We have to be faithful to God and not turn inwards and feed our own pride and lusts.

 

[JonC]

Something that needs to be considered:

Perhaps there is a greater advantage to addressing one's own sins than there is judging the perceived sins of others....especially when it comes to online forums where interaction is so limited and up to interpretation.

 

[Iconoclast]

Now, in an effort to get this thread back to the actual OP>
We invite Charles Bridges to offer from His commentary of Proverbs,

17. He that is first in his own cause seemeth just; but his neighbour cometh and searcheth him. We have lately had a rule against judging others. (Verse 13.)
Here we are warned against justifying ourselves.

Self-flattery is our cherished nature; highly valuing our fancied excellences; very blind to our real imperfections.

So ready are we to place our own cause in a strong light ; and sometimes, almost unconsciously, to cast a shade over, or even omit, what might seem to balance on the opposite side.


It is so difficult to state facts and circumstances with perfect accuracy, where our own name, or credit is concerned. Hence, our cause, coming first, seemeth just.


1 Chap. xvii. 8, 23. Comp. xix. 6. 2 Gen. xxiv. 30-33. 3 Ibid. xxxiii. 1-11. 4 Gen. xliii. 11. 5 Judg. iii. 17, 18. 6 1 Sam. xxv. 18-27. 7 Ib. ix. 7. * Nu?n ga>r a]rxh>n e]xw tou? maqhteuesqai>. † See PAXTON'S Illustrations, ii. 29. 296 EXPOSITION OF THE BOOK OF PROVERBS.

But, according to the proverb, ‘the first tale is good till the second is heard.' Our neighbour, acquainted with the real case, cometh and searcheth us, exposes our fallacy, and puts us to shame.

Often has the tale of wrongs from a hard-hearted overseer, landlord, or creditor, roused our indignation, and perhaps provoked our remonstrance. But the searching process of the story on the other side has shewn us the wrongness of a hasty, one-sided judgment.


Saul made himself appear just in his own cause. The necessity of the case seemed to warrant the deviation from the command. But Samuel searched him, and laid open his rebellion. (1 Sam. xv. 17-03.) Ziba's cause seemed just in David's eyes, until Mephibosheth's explanation searched him to his confusion.* Job's incautious self-defence was laid open by Elihu's probing application. (Job, xxxiii. 8-12.) An eloquent advocate may easily make a bad cause coming first seem just. But the plaintiff is always right, till the defendant's case has been opened. Yet the true rule of justice would be, to judge neither to be right, till both sides have been heard. Let the whole evidence be sifted; and often the plausible cover is swept away by a more searching investigation. (Acts, xxiv. 5, 12.) Judges are bound to "consider, take advice, and speak," (Judg. xix. 30); carefully guarding against prejudging the cause, till the whole has been fully before them; else he that is last in the cause comes with disadvantage, though it may be to cause of right. In our own cause, always be alive to conviction. Watch against a self-justifying spirit. Cultivate the spirit of self-distrust. Balance our enemy's statement against our own prejudices. Judge as under the eye of God, and with the sincere anxious prayer to lay ourselves open to his searching disclosure of hidden evil. Deceit ill any form never answers its end. " A conscience void of offence both towards God and man" must be our great exercise. (Acts, xxiv. 16.)

Charles Bridges gets this verse and zero's in on the telltale actions of the offending person.

Here we are warned against justifying ourselves.

This is a major clue describing the person who is described by this proverb.

 

[Iconoclast]

The op. is about this;
But, according to the proverb, ‘the first tale is good till the second is heard.' Our neighbour, acquainted with the real case, cometh and searcheth us, exposes our fallacy, and puts us to shame.

Often has the tale of wrongs from a hard-hearted overseer, landlord, or creditor, roused our indignation, and perhaps provoked our remonstrance. But the searching process of the story on the other side has shewn us the wrongness of a hasty, one-sided judgment.

 

[JonC]

The op. is about this;
But, according to the proverb, ‘the first tale is good till the second is heard.' Our neighbour, acquainted with the real case, cometh and searcheth us, exposes our fallacy, and puts us to shame.

Often has the tale of wrongs from a hard-hearted overseer, landlord, or creditor, roused our indignation, and perhaps provoked our remonstrance. But the searching process of the story on the other side has shewn us the wrongness of a hasty, one-sided judgment.

The proverb is directed towards judgment:

Proverbs 18:15-18 The mind of the prudent acquires knowledge, And the ear of the wise seeks knowledge. A man's gift makes room for him And brings him before great men. The first to plead his case seems right, Until another comes and examines him. The cast lot puts an end to strife And decides between the mighty ones.

How do we judge right from wrong. The wrong may appear right until the right appears. Do we, as the passage states, cast lots (flip a coin) to determine right from wrong? Lots were an appeal to God (letting God decide, like how the Amish choose their leader).

BUT we have the word of God. THIS is the determiner. This is the "other" that comes along to examine the man.

We do not judge a man against another man. We judge using Scripture (the Bible).

In the example I gave NEITHER parties were without guilt. Were he honest he would admit his sin as I admitted mine. But if he is dishonest then your application of the proverb would not work. The guy made false accusations in order to "win points" with his crowd and slander me. Some of his arguments were too childish and it backfired on him. He was ultimately denounced by the board (the membership and the staff). But I was also guilty because I had insulted him. It was not a victory for me, but an incident where we were both wrong (him for his false accusations and me for how I handled the issue). I took care of my sin, he remained in his.



Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.


What does the word of God say about dealing with other people?

It says “ Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you” (Ephesians 4:29-32)

It says “ "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." John 13:35

It says “If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.” 1 John 4:20

I do not think that we that we need to venture further. God’s word is living and active. God is NOT mocked.

 

[Iconoclast]

"JonC,

In the example I gave NEITHER parties were without guilt. The guy lied about me. He made false accusations in order to "win points" and slander me. Some of his arguments were too childish and it backfired on him. He was ultimately denounced by the board (the membership and the staff). But I was also guilty because I had insulted him. It was not a victory for me, but an incident where we were both wrong (him for his false accusations and me for how I handled the issue). I took care of my sin, he remained in his.

This might be a topic of discussion on your thread, but the more you drag it over here it appears as if you are doing the exact thing Bridges describes in this proverb.
Here we are warned against justifying ourselves.

Self-flattery is our cherished nature; highly valuing our fancied excellences; very blind to our real imperfections.

So ready are we to place our own cause in a strong light ; and sometimes, almost unconsciously, to cast a shade over, or even omit, what might seem to balance on the opposite side.

No need to drag your example here 5 or 6times, it looks like what Bridges describes.
If you need to heal from your confessed sinful participation, do so in the thread you started, and let this thread stay on topic

 

[Iconoclast]

Getting back on topic, these are on biblehub;

Benson Commentary
Proverbs 18:17. He that is first in his own cause — He that first pleadeth his cause; seemeth just — Both to himself, and to the judge, or court, by his fair pretences; but his neighbour cometh — To contend with him in judgment, and to plead his cause; and searcheth him — Examineth the truth and weight of his allegations, disproveth them, and detecteth the weakness of his cause.

Pulpit Commentary
Verse 17. - He that is first in his own cause seemeth just; Revised Version, he that pleadeth his cause first seemeth just. A man who tells his own story, and is the first to open his case before the judge or a third party, seems tot the moment to have justice on his side. But his neighbour cometh and searcheth him out (Proverbs 28:11). The "neighbour" is the opposing party - ὁ ἀντίδικος Septuagint, which recalls Matthew 5:25 - he sifts and scrutinizes the statements already given, shows them to be erroneous, or weakens the evidence which appeared to support them. Thus the maxims, "One story is good till the other is told," and "Audi alteram partem," receive confirmation. Vulgate, Justus prior est accusator sui. So Septuagint, "The righteous is his own accuser in opening the suit (ἐν πρωτολογίᾳ)." He cuts the ground from under the adversary's feet by at once owning his fault. St. Gregory more than once, in his 'Moralia,' adduces this rendering. Thus on Job 7:11, "To put the mouth to labour is to employ it in the confession of sin done, but the righteous man doth not refrain his mouth, in that, forestalling the wrath of the searching Judge, he falls wroth upon himself in words of self-confession. Hence it is written, 'The just man is first the accuser of himself'" (so lib. 22:33).

 

[Iconoclast]

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
He that is first in his own cause seemeth just,.... As perhaps Tertullus did, before Paul made his defence; and as Ziba, Mephibosheth's servant, before his master detected him: this often appears true in telling a tale, in private conversation, in lawsuits before a judge and a court of judicature, and in theological controversies;
but his neighbour cometh, and searcheth him; his neighbour comes into the house, where he is telling his tale, and reports it in another manner, and shows the falsehood of his relation; or he comes into a court of judicature, and sets the cause in quite another light; or he comes out into the worm by public writing, and exposes the errors of a man engaged in a wrong cause, and refutes his arguments. It is generally understood of judicial affairs, that the first that opens a cause is very apt to prejudice the judge and court in his favour, and they are ready to thing at first hearing that he is in the right; but it is not proper to be hasty in forming a judgment till the other side is heard; for his antagonist comes and traverses the point, unravels the whole affair, shows the weakness of his cause, the vanity of his pretences, and makes void all his allegations; and then "he", the judge, so some interpret it, "searcheth"; inquires more narrowly into the case, in order to find out truth, and pass a right judgment and sentence.

 

[Iconoclast]

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
17. One-sided statements are not reliable.
searcheth—thoroughly (Pr 17:9, 19).

Matthew Poole's Commentary
He that is first in his own cause, he that first pleadeth his cause,

seemeth just, both to himself and to the judge or court, by his fair pretences.

His neighbour cometh, to contend with him in judgment and to plead his cause,

and searcheth him; examineth the truth and weight of his allegations, and disproveth them, and detecteth his weakness. Or, discovers him; for seeking or searching are oft put for finding, as Proverbs 17:9,19, and elsewhere.

 

[JonC]

"JonC,


This might be a topic of discussion on your thread, but the more you drag it over here it appears as if you are doing the exact thing Bridges describes in this proverb.
Here we are warned against justifying ourselves.

Self-flattery is our cherished nature; highly valuing our fancied excellences; very blind to our real imperfections.

So ready are we to place our own cause in a strong light ; and sometimes, almost unconsciously, to cast a shade over, or even omit, what might seem to balance on the opposite side.

No need to drag your example here 5 or 6times, it looks like what Bridges describes.
If you need to heal from your confessed sinful participation, do so in the thread you started, and let this thread stay on topic

I think that you are missing the point, Iconoclast.

The OP title is Proverbs 18:17 Dealing with the sins of professing believers online.

What are we looking at (per the OP)? Professing Christians on online forums who sin.
what does the proverb say? That one may seem right until another examines him.

I am saying that per Scripture the "examiner" IS GOD'S WORD.

I am not talking about anyone justifying themselves, or flattery, or pleading our own case. I am saying that Christians MUST DISCERN WITH SCRIPTURE AS THE STANDARD.

I offered an example where another person and I were both guilty. What does SCRIPTURE say? Scripture tells us to forgive those who offend us, to seek peace, to uplift, to repent, etc. That is what I did. That is not what the other person did (he remained in sin). So what else (the question of the OP) should be done? NOTHING.

I am guiltless not because I was not guilty but because I have been forgiven my part by God. And I extended an apology to that guy. That is all that I need to do. NOTHING else. The guilt remains on the other guy until God convicts him and he repents, he forgives, and he is forgiven by God (not me, I already forgave the man).

Christians need to be FAITHFUL to God's Word. It really is that simple. Obey and stand in that obedience.

Scripture is not a smorgasbord where we can select a proverb teaching how to rule a people justly and ignore passages telling Christians how to act towards other people.

 

[Iconoclast]

No one should just read your account accordingly.
Without the other person giving their side no one can be certain.
You should not speak of this in a one sided manner.
The person according to this proverb might show that you are the offending party, and you have stalked him, so you should either invite him here, or give us a link to this other board so we can see.

 

[JonC]

No one should just read your account accordingly.
Without the other person giving their side no one can be certain.
You should not speak of this in a one sided manner.
The person according to this proverb might show that you are the offending party, and you have stalked him, so you should either invite him here, or give us a link to this other board so we can see.

Again, you are missing the point.

That guy and I were BOTH the offending party.

There were two people - that man and me. Scripture teaches when there is a conflict that we are to forgive the other person.

I forgave the other person and apologized. I moved on. That was being obedient to God.

He may have forgiven me, I do not know. That is none of my business. I hope that he did because the Bible says if not the Father will not forgive his sins and that he will not inherit the kingdom of God. I do not want that for this man, and I pray for his salvation. But that is between him and God. I am not currently involved in the issue (whether he is or not, I do not know).

The point is when Christians sin online we are to be obedient to God, not seek to be vindicated. That is the point.

I only spoke of the man who made false accusations against me as an illustration. It is true, and he and I were both wrong. But where I know that I was obedient to God I cannot say for the other guy. And that was not my point.

My point was that the Bible tells us what to do in these situations.

 

[Iconoclast]

Give us the name of that Forum, and we can inquire of this person and see if he agrees that both of you were the offending parties.
You keep bringing up the one side of it.
Maybe it would give you closure, and it might be such a relief to the other person to know exactly how much you care for him, as you have mentioned it half a dozen times now.
Maybe we can invite him here so you can shower your love on him, and we could all witness the reconciliation and healing.

 

[JonC]

Give us the name of that Forum, and we can inquire of this person and see if he agrees that both of you were the offending parties.
You keep bringing up the one side of it.
Maybe it would give you closure, and it might be such a relief to the other person to know exactly how much you care for him, as you have mentioned it half a dozen times now.
Maybe we can invite him here so you can shower your love on him, and we could all witness the reconciliation and healing.

No. That would turn an illustration into gossip.

Most know me enough to know that I would not misrepresent such an issue. The man lied about me and I replied by insulting him. We were both wrong. A third party (multiple third parties) let him know he was wrong in his claims and I was wrong to reply by insulting him. That is all there is to the situation.

I apologized to him and I forgave him. My part is done. But he doubled down in his sin. I will not offer specifics because that would be participating in his sinfulness.

The point here is that we are to respond to those situations by obeying God's word.

When dealing with sin we repent of our sins, ask for forgiveness for our sins and forgive the other person. If, like in my case, the other man will not stop sinning we just pray for him. It is between that person and God.

 

[Iconoclast]

By not giving the other person an opportunity, you are guilty of tale bearing and gossip right now.
What if we discover this person, or that board, and find out as proverbs 18:17 says?
There are not that many forums out there.
Has anyone seen this forum?
Does anyone know of this situation?Does anyone know this other person? Is he okay?

 

[JonC]

By not giving the other person an opportunity, you are guilty of tale bearing and gossip right now.
What if we discover this person, or that board, and find out as proverbs 18:17 says?
There are not that many forums out there.
Has anyone seen this forum?
Does anyone know of this situation?Does anyone know this other person? Is he okay?

No. It is an account. The issue was already settled. It is in the past.

The man had his say and I had mine. The staff told him that he was wrong and had jumped to conclusions. They told me I was wrong to respond with insults. They were correct. I do not think he believed it because it was not the only time this happened. He was corrected at least three times. So was I. He was proven to have made false assumotions and I was proven to have responded inappropriatey.

The difference is I understood I was wrong and repented. I forgave the man. He could not, I think, because he was obsessed with the sin of pride. Others suggested he was not actually saved, but I think we cannot judge in that way.

It goes back to Scripture. Both cases were heard and a discussion made (multiple times). Where I listened to criticism he could not. That is where the proverb comes in. A fool despises reproof. He cannot bear it. It damages his pride as he craves vindication.

This is where my point comes in. We have to be obedient to Scripture. As such I will never reveal that man because it would feed his sin. Pride always wants a stage.

I have forgiven him, apologized, and pray for him. That is all I need to do.

 

[JonC]

@Iconoclast,

I offered an example. Why get caught up in the illustration? You are going down a rabbit hole.

The point is that the Bible is very clear on how we deal with others. There is no excuse to reject Scripture. That was the point of my experience.


I forgave the one who falsely accused me. I apologized to him for my part (for responding to him unkindly and insulting him). And I was forgiven. So it is behind me. If he condemns me that is his business because God does not. It is between him and God.

The point is when people sin against us we are not to take offense or to give offense. We forgive, apologize for our part, and move on. Don't worry about the other guy, if he does not repent or forgive. Pity him. Pray for him. But leave him to God.

 

[Iconoclast]

This is an illustration of prov18:17.
Unless that person is asked to come here, we are not obligated to hear a one sided Account. That would be forcing us to sin.

 

[JonC]

This is an illustration of prov18:17.
Unless that person is asked to come here, we are not obligated to hear a one sided Account. That would be forcing us to sin.

No, that would be wrong. I mention the issue, not the person.

My example is a past issue that was settled already. The things in the proverb happened already. This was settled 3 different times from different people. And the conclusion has always been the same.

I made my case. He made his case. The judges concluded he had made false assumptions leading to false accusations and I had responded inappropriately to those false claims.

This actually happened three times across two boards involving over 7 staff members considering both sides. It was proven he had made false accusations and that I responded inappropriately. The conclusion has been the same every time. That was the proverb in action.

A fool despises reproof. I "took my lumps" and learned from my actions. I am grateful for the correction. Each time he became hostile and rejected reproof. But he has to realize he was wrong. I'm sure of it. Perhaps God has drawn him back to a faithful walk. I don't know. I do not converse with him privately. He has never apologized, but that does not matter. God may have led him to repentance. That is not my business.

But you are missing the point entirely, Brother.

The point us HOW we respond, NOT seeking a fourth or fifth audience to hear both sides of a resolved issue.

We respond to being wronged by apologizing for our part, forgiving the other, and moving on.

Even those false accusations were a tool God used to reach me and correct my errors. I realized the importance of forgiveness and grew from meeting that guy. While it was an unfortunate encounter God used it for good and for His glory. I matured through the experience and gained a deeper understanding of forgiveness.