Proverbs 18:17 in Dealing with the sin of professed believers online.

[Iconoclast]

Proverbs 18:17
He that is first in his own cause seemeth just;
but his neighbor cometh and searcheth him.

17:any story sounds true until someone tells the other side and sets the record straight.

In a recent thread attention was being given to "professed" Believers who were being spoken about in a bad light.
In the providence of God, I know of a very similar situation,almost identical you could say that would really help develop this thread.
I had offered one post on the thread , but it has vanished, and I am told I cannot take part in the thread.
Did anyone else get such a message?
Nevertheless as we bring relevant scriptures to light this thread will be a fine compliment to the other as we wrestle to find a scriptural resolution to some of these issues.

Has anyone been in this situation online before?

I and a few others were on a forum that would put Calvinists on a "coffee break" where they could not post publically but "behind the scenes"the censors would discuss with them why they needed to rewrite what they posted,lol
This went on usually until the Calvinist left.
I know of a case where a moderator edited and rewrote a post so he could lie and say the Calvinist posted it,lol.
How desperate. Others knew about it, and were partaker of that sin.
Has something similar happened to you
Lets get to some truth here.

 

[Iconoclast]

17:any story sounds true until someone tells the other side and sets the record straight.

In a recent thread, attention was being given to "professed" Believers who were being spoken about in a bad light.
In the providence of God, I know of a very similar situation, almost identical you could say that would really help develop this thread.

The parallels are both striking and instructive;

let's compare and contrast;

My stalker made a big show of saying he forgave me???

This was to avoid the issue of dishonesty, lying, false witness, and slander...THAT HE REFUSED TO ADDRESS IN AN HONEST CHRISTIAN MANNER. He has never faced his sin issue head on.
He made a big outshow of saying he forgave the other person for posting insults but he is still doing it to this day.


The person I am aware of tried to get the staff to see the stalker was a liar.
They only half saw it and wanted to move forward instead of deal with his wickedness.
This stalker has been banned on at least two boards I am aware of, once permanently for lying dishonest posts!
A liar if he is a habitual liar slowly reveals himself because he cannot cover all his lies.

Prov16:
27 An ungodly man diggeth up evil: and in his lips there is as a burning fire.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[Iconoclast]

We must be careful in these discussions not to gossip.
Notice this poster gives no evidence of his assertions.
He claims he was the victim of a false accusation, but others had noticed his lying, and stalking conduct.
In my account it was the stalker who was trying to discredit the person.

He lies in plain sight by accusing his victim of the same sins he himself does.
In other words, he lies, so he claims the other person lies.

He stalks his victim to two other sites, for the sole reason to bear false witness and get the person banned on that site.
Pretty sick twisted person that does such a thing.

 

[Reformed]

I have been lied about and misrepresented online. It is a sad fact of some message board experiences. I have lived long enough to see individuals protect their private fiefdoms from any and all challenges. I have also lived long enough to know when fighting about it is a wasteful time sink. I have more important things in my life than to lose sleep over these things. Still, no one likes to be lied about. It is comforting to know that individuals who do that sort of thing do not have to answer to me. They have to answer to God.

 

[Iconoclast]

I have been lied about and misrepresented online. It is a sad fact of some message board experiences. I have lived long enough to see individuals protect their private fiefdoms from any and all challenges. I have also lived long enough to know when fighting about it is a wasteful time sink. I have more important things in my life than to lose sleep over these things. Still, no one likes to be lied about. It is comforting to know that individuals who do that sort of thing do not have to answer to me. They have to answer to God.

Yes . Once again you see through to their expected end. and deception
They can create a smokescreen of lies and deception, but God will not be mocked.

 

[JonC]

I have been lied about and misrepresented online. It is a sad fact of some message board experiences. I have lived long enough to see individuals protect their private fiefdoms from any and all challenges. I have also lived long enough to know when fighting about it is a wasteful time sink. I have more important things in my life than to lose sleep over these things. Still, no one likes to be lied about. It is comforting to know that individuals who do that sort of thing do not have to answer to me. They have to answer to God.

I know how you feel. But while it is comforting that such people do not answer to me, I find a burden instead of comfort knowing unless they repent (to God, not to me) they will face a judgment for their actions.

I pray they are Christian (Christians can do wrong) but at the same time I pray as if they are not.

These are people. And their sin against you and against me do not even compare to our former sins against God. We need to pray that God will reach these peoe, convict them and lead them to a godly sorrow over their actions.

God takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked. But they will nonetheless be destroyed. I find the prospect a few I have encountered will remain condemned (justly condemned) a burden. It creates in me pity towards those people, not anger or a need for vindication but a need to pray and plead with God on their behalf.

What we all have to keep in mind is we are all human. God has forgiven us and we must forgive other men. This is a vital part of what it means to be a Christian (we follow Christ).

 

[Iconoclast]

Many personal sins have to do with sinful communication.
Sins of the tongue, or online posting can be sinful communication.

We are instructed to edify each other in a local assembly.
Godly communication is a command ,not an option.

prov16
27 An ungodly man digs up evil,
And it is on his lips like a burning fire.
28 A perverse man sows strife,
And a whisperer separates the best of friends.
29 A violent man entices his neighbor,
And leads him in a way that is not good.
30 He winks his eye to devise perverse things;
He purses his lips and brings about evil.


prov24.
1 Be not thou envious against evil men, neither desire to be with them.

2 For their heart studieth destruction, and their lips talk of mischief.


There is a difference between believers and make believers.

 

[Reformed]

Many personal sins have to do with sinful communication.
Sins of the tongue, or online posting can be sinful communication.

We are instructed to edify each other in a local assembly.
Godly communication is a command ,not an option.

prov16
27 An ungodly man digs up evil,
And it is on his lips like a burning fire.
28 A perverse man sows strife,
And a whisperer separates the best of friends.
29 A violent man entices his neighbor,
And leads him in a way that is not good.
30 He winks his eye to devise perverse things;
He purses his lips and brings about evil.


prov24.
1 Be not thou envious against evil men, neither desire to be with them.

2 For their heart studieth destruction, and their lips talk of mischief.


There is a difference between believers and make believers.

When my daughter was young I used to tell her that not every professor is a possessor.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

 

[Iconoclast]

When my daughter was young I used to tell her that not every professor is a possessor.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

I can recall some anecdotal stories like I stopped in to have lunch years ago
at a Roy Rogers and bumped into a former church member who drifted away.
I thought he had moved.
He did move. He moved away from his profession of faith and the female who was sitting on his lap was not his wife. Very awkward. I questioned him briefly, but he was intent on covering his sin.

 

[MartyF]

Has something similar happened to you

A moderator changed the word meaning a person without a father to b****. Since I was talking about a woman, they made it look like I wrote something worse than I did. I don't believe it was intentional. I still laugh about it.

Generally, if I believe I am not wanted on the forum by those who "own" it, I will leave.

I will say that when I first came to the site and knew nothing about Calvinism, Tulip, and the like, you were one of the only ones who answered my questions instead calling me a heretic. You have my respect for that despite the fact that we ended up on opposing sides of the issue.

 

[Roy]

Iconoclast, you have provided a lot of food for thought. We all need to be reminded to have love for our brethren.

John 13:34-35

• A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
  
• By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

In your opening remarks, you questioned if anyone on this discussion board had been banished from a thread. Is that the purpose of this thread? Can you define the purpose of this thread in a sentence or two?

 

[Iconoclast]

MartyF,

I will say that when I first came to the site and knew nothing about Calvinism, Tulip, and the like, you were one of the only ones who answered my questions instead calling me a heretic.

Hello MartyF,

I go online with a view to help others if I can. When a poster asks sincere questions, I try and offer sincere responses. We are all learning
With the doctrines of grace, many are re-discovering these truths.

Others have been misled and have sat under defective ministries who attack these truths. There are many reasons for this confusion.
I cannot make anyone believe anything, but by being faithful to scripture can attempt to remove obstacles that hinder them from seeing the truth.

Some are just hostile, and seek to attack, 24/7...so they are answered differently. They are dishonest posters.

You have my respect for that despite the fact that we ended up on opposing sides of the issue.

Regardless if we agree or not, I like to remind people that we should serve God with what we understand, until we can modify and improve our understanding.
Our goal here is not to "win" an online argument, but rather to come to a clearer grasp of the truth.

I will continue to offer help to you if you want it.

 

[Iconoclast]

"Roy,

Iconoclast, you have provided a lot of food for thought. We all need to be reminded to have love for our brethren.

John 13:34-35

• A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
  
• By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

Yes, love of brethren is required of all believers.
We are even to have a love for our enemies in speaking the truth to them.

In your opening remarks, you questioned if anyone on this discussion board had been banished from a thread. Is that the purpose of this thread? Can you define the purpose of this thread in a sentence or two?

Roy, what I find often on message boards is some who constantly lecture everyone else on what it means to be a Christian, or they give one version of an event that upon further examination is found to be dishonest.
I was opening up this verse with that in view.

A talebearer is someone who passes on false information about someone else, oftentimes by design, trying to damage the person publically.
If the talebearer is a skilled liar he can influence many people.
When the other person sheds light on the situation truth emerges from the fog of dishonesty.

 

[JonC]

I have repeatedly said this, and I think it would solve many issues people experience.

 

[Iconoclast]

A talebearer ignores if something is true, kind, or necessary. They just intend harm to their victim.

 

[JonC]

A moderator changed the word meaning a person without a father to b****. Since I was talking about a woman, they made it look like I wrote something worse than I did. I don't believe it was intentional. I still laugh about it.

Generally, if I believe I am not wanted on the forum by those who "own" it, I will leave.

I will say that when I first came to the site and knew nothing about Calvinism, Tulip, and the like, you were one of the only ones who answered my questions instead calling me a heretic. You have my respect for that despite the fact that we ended up on opposing sides of the issue.

Very good points. Too often members attack people because they disagree with their positions.

I believe the benefit of these boards is it allows us to understand the vires of other Christians. We should try to explain our positions without trying to convert others to our understanding. Abd, of course, without insulting others for rejecting our interpretations.

I was a Calvinist for much of my life. My preaching often reflected a Calvinistic undersanding. I studied Calvinism as a graduate student. I taught Calvinism in evening theology classes. If you have any questions I would certainly be willing to explain Calvinism. It is a position I understand very well as it was my view.

I am no longer a Calvinist because I do not hold an underlying presupposition upon which the view is dependent. But having held the view exposed me to truths I may have otherwise ignored. Many of my friends are Calvinists and we have wonderful discussions and fellowship over our differences. Most of those I follow in Christian circles are Calvinists. And all but one of my friends who are or were professors are Calvinists.

It is vital to understanding that one considers not only the position but also reasons others have rejected the position (this applies to any position).

The problem comes in when people cannot distinguish persons from the doctrines they hold. People mischaracterize opposing views (some non-Calvinists teach Calvinism makes God the creator of sin, which is false... Some Calvinists teach free-will theology means the crux of salvation is man, which is false).

If you are interested in what Calvinisism teaches I suggest reading J. I. Packer. He has detailed the view in several works. But also consider those who oppose the reaching and why.

 

[JonC]

A talebearer ignores if something is true, kind, or necessary. They just intend harm to their victim.

I think that you highlight two issues that combine to cause disruption. There are people who are abusive and who post unnecessarily in a less than true and less than kind way (to be fair there is probably nothing on these threads that are truly "necessary").

But that is only half of the equation. We, as you point out here, are also plagued with a few snowflakes who seek to be victims.

I have been the target of some of the things you have mentioned (i.e., I've been falsely accused of many things, insulted, etc.). But I never considered myself a victim. I will never consider myself a victim. I am a victor because I have victory in Christ. People may say false things about me, make false accusations, slander me, and the like. But through it all I am a child of God, not a victim of those people.

We have to keep in mind that the flesh is always set against the spirit. We should not be offended, but rather continue to look to Christ and speak the gospel of Jesus Christ. Christians are not called to be victims or snowflakes. Even Calvinists hold to tulip and not pansies .

Online forums are not good places for abusive people. They are also not good places for snowflakes. In an online environment it takes two to make a victim - one who is abusive and one who already has a victim mentality seeking to be offended in some way. Both express immature and weak characters. Neither are godly qualities to have.

I think that we see this played out in our contemporary events as well. Someone is "offended" by a statue or a remark someone else has made. The snowflake is hurt and demands the other be censured with the damage repaired. As a people I do not think that this victim mentality is constructive. Victim-hood builds on itself. Once a victim the weaker man will always see himself as a victim. Goya's support of the President means (to them) that Goya is attacking them. The opposing side (in their minds) should not exist. So they try to silence opposition by labeling it as "hate-speech". In the end, it is pride.

The scary part is that so many professing Christians have bought into this victim snowflake mentality. But what happens when it is decided Christianity itself is "hate-speech"?

 

[Iconoclast]

JonC,

I have been the target of some of the things you have mentioned (i.e., I've been falsely accused of many things, insulted, etc.).

Here is the verse from the OP.

Proverbs 18:17
He that is first in his own cause seemeth just;
but his neighbor cometh and searcheth him.

17:any story sounds true until someone tells the other side and sets the record straight.

What if other persons come and point out that you were not falsely accused, but correctly observed doing the things mentioned?
All the words offered in response would have no effect.
If sin has taken place, and it is not repented of progress is hindered, credibility is lost.
If the observations made are correct they have to be dealt with, not ignored,not glossed over.
Glossing over sin feeds a bad atmosphere.

 

[JonC]

JonC,



Here is the verse from the OP.

Proverbs 18:17
He that is first in his own cause seemeth just;
but his neighbor cometh and searcheth him.

17:any story sounds true until someone tells the other side and sets the record straight.

What if other persons come and point out that you were not falsely accused, but correctly observed doing the things mentioned?
All the words offered in response would have no effect.
If sin has taken place, and it is not repented of progress is hindered, credibility is lost.
If the observations made are correct they have to be dealt with, not ignored,not glossed over.
Glossing over sin feeds a bad atmosphere.

People make false assumptions all that time (often unaware). I see this when non-Calvinists say that Calvinism makes men robots. And I see this when Calvinists say free-will theology makes men to save themselves.

I am sure most who say those things about others do so out of ignorance. We should extend grace to them.

As for me, I was falsely accused of many things. It cannot be proven those accusations are true because they are not (hence the term "false accusation" ). The Administration on that site affirmed my accuser was lying and gave him a temporarybban. Some people will always call false clames true (it is" their truth", which assumes truth to be subjective). But it does not matter. As a Christian I simply forgave the accuser and moved on.

The problem is some people think they can judge the motives and actions of others. From there they seek victory over the other person.

That type of thing is not profitable. As Christians we are to uplift one another and love one another.

There is no room for gossip, accusations, insults, grudges, ect. The reason is we are commanded otherwise and are called to be a holy people.

I think it is important to be obident rather than the accuser of the brethren. That role belongs to Satan and it is his spirit, not God's, that leads believers astray to accuse other believers.

 

[Iconoclast]

JonC

People make false assumptions all that time (often unaware)

.

This thread is not concerned with false assumptions.It is about hearing two sides of a story to get to the truth.
17:any story sounds true until someone tells the other side and sets the record straight.

[QUOTE]I am sure most who say those things about others do so out of ignorance. We should extend grace to them.[/QUOTE]

This is not the topic here.

As for me, I was falsely accused of many things.

That is your statement, but others have not given testimony on this as the Proverb describes.Proverbs 18:17
He that is first in his own cause seemeth just;
but his neighbor cometh and searcheth him.

But it does not matter[/QUOTE].

Truth matters and on a Christian board it should be examined.

As a Christian I simply forgave the accuser and moved on.

Sin must be exposed and dealt with, not glossed over.

The problem is some people think they can judge thi motives and actions of others. From there they seek victory over the other person.

That also might be a problem, but not the subject of this thread,

There is no room for gossip, accusations, insults, grudges, ect.

Again the topic is establishing truth, not gossip.