Proverbs 23:31

Yes, Psalm 75:8 clearly shows it is the wicked who drink the fermented beverage, not the righteous.

Good verse

 

Maybe y'all ought to read the whole Psalm. I find it hard to believe that anyone thinks this passage is relevant to this topic.

 

For you to accuse others of "not responding" to others challenges and arguments, you have blundered. You sir have been throwing around your vast knowledge of the original languages, which as far as I can tell is cut and past from other independent, fundamental sources... not you. I in turn POSTED the hebrew for the passage in Proverbs. You have yet to respond... so I will post again.


אַל־תֵּ֥רֶא יַיִן֮ כִּ֪י יִתְאַ֫דָּ֥ם כִּֽי־יִתֵּ֣ן בַּכֹּ֣֯יס עֵינֹ֑ו יִ֝תְהַלֵּ֗ךְ בְּמֵישָׁרִֽים׃

Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia : With Westminster Hebrew Morphology. electronic ed., Pr 23:31. Stuttgart; Glenside PA: German Bible Society; Westminster Seminary, 1996, c1925; morphology c1991.

My hebrew text says... al thra'ah which is a verb, qal, imperfect, second person, masculine, singular, apocopated ending, jussive in form and meaning with the strong prefix attached.

The root of the term used is indeed ra'ah but the form used is stronger, implying staring or glaring, which can be transliterated to lustful gaze not do not experience. Your reasoning is faulty, your command of the languages is questionable and it seems that your using the KJV is not helping you. The word you are hanging your hat on is used only on 3 occasions in the OT text. If your Hebrew text is different please POST it.

By the way, the way you read an epistle or narrative is vastly different from how you read and perform hermaneutical work on proverbs or the psalter.

Just to let you know I am using Libronix Software for this material.

 

I would agree with Gill to a point, in that it is the "lust of the heart" that causes the person to falter (whether it be for wine, women, or song). I think it is a stretch to take it further. To fix one's gaze (read attention, passion, desire) upon anything so as to displace God from His place of primacy in the life of the believer is the overall point (ie "no other Gods).

The language to communicate "no alcohol" for the believer was available and was certainly communicated in the Nazarite Vow and the command to priests who would be serving in the Temple in Leviticus 10. Those specific commands are not and can not be found in application to the believer today.

Here is the Strong's entry for the overall root, keeping in mind that the verb is in the Qal form, I have highlighted the Qal transliteration possibilities.

7200 רָאָה, רָאֶה, רְאוּת [ra’ah /raw·aw/] v. A primitive root; TWOT 2095; GK 8011 and 8013 and 8021; 1313 occurrences; AV translates as “see” 879 times, “look” 104 times, “behold” 83 times, “shew” 68 times, “appear” 66 times, “consider” 22 times, “seer” 12 times, “spy” six times, “respect” five times, “perceive” five times, “provide” four times, “regard” four times, “enjoy” four times, “lo” three times, “foreseeth” twice, “heed” twice, and translated miscellaneously 74 times. 1 to see, look at, inspect, perceive, consider. 1a (Qal). 1a1 to see. 1a2 to see, perceive. 1a3 to see, have vision. 1a4 to look at, see, regard, look after, see after, learn about, observe, watch, look upon, look out, find out. 1a5 to see, observe, consider, look at, give attention to, discern, distinguish. 1a6 to look at, gaze at. 1b (Niphal). 1b1 to appear, present oneself. 1b2 to be seen. 1b3 to be visible. 1c (Pual) to be seen. 1d (Hiphil). 1d1 to cause to see, show. 1d2 to cause to look intently at, behold, cause to gaze at. 1e (Hophal). 1e1 to be caused to see, be shown. 1e2 to be exhibited to. 1f (Hithpael) to look at each other, face.

Strong, James. The Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible : Showing Every Word of the Test of the Common English Version of the Canonical Books, and Every Occurence of Each Word in Regular Order. electronic ed., H7200. Ontario: Woodside Bible Fellowship., 1996.

Interestingly enough, to experience is not present. The translation would have to fall into one of the bolded forms, with the strong negative attached, hence al thra'ah. And jsut so there is clarity on what qal is, here is the entry for it. Notice the emphasis on "simple" action.

08851 Qal

Qal is the most frequently used verb pattern. It expresses the “simple” or “casual” action of the root in the active voice.

Examples:

he sat, he ate, he went, he said, he rose, he bought

This form accounts for 66.7% of the verbs parsed.

Pierce, Larry. Tense Voice Mood., TVM8851. Ontario: Woodside Bible Fellowship.

 

I believe I answered this on another thread for you.

Apart from that why do those that find Grace in the eyes of the Lord get drunk on occasion?

 

Libronix is wholly owned, marketed, and distributed by LOGOS Research Systems... Not Thomas Nelson! Thomas Nelson is a publishing company, not the church. Their job is to publish books and materials that are purchased by you and me. Therefore, they will publish things I agree with and disagree with. They are neither liberal or conservative. Their job is to make profit like any other company. You however, with the style of eisegesis you are employing sound alot like a liberal to me.

FYI, The Libronix system contains thousands of books, reference tools, and book titles from a myriad of perspectives and publishers. It has particular theological bent and is the single best computing tool available. It really is no different than having the same number of books on your shelf.

ONE of the possible... out of how many. Face the facts, you have chosen a particular belief and are attempting to make certain elements of scripture fit that position. You fail in nearly every hermaneutical test to develop appropriate doctrinal thinking, and you refuse to even acknowledge that you might be wrong. If it helps... I MIGHT BE WRONG!

My singular hope is not that you would ever drink as I support your personal decision to not do so, but instead to allow yourself to receive the fellowship of others with whom you disagree, and to expose yourself to the TOTALITY of thought on this particular non-essential issue. Via con Dios

 

Jesus...the "friend of sinners" can, but you are too good to?

Your Bible does not say that, unless you read a different Bible than I do.

Amen!

 

You never take seriously the Word of God. Noah got drunk. You are at odds with your maker.

 

That entire chapter is clearly speaking of addiction, alcoholism, and drunkenness. It mentions bloodshot eyes, feeling like you are beat up, feeling like you are sleeping on the high seas due to being dizzy, hallucinations, passing out, then waking up and immediately wanting more. These things simply are not related to very moderate drinking. The only way that anything in this chapter could ever be interpreted to say you should never touch alcohol whatsoever is if you nitpicked a short passage and took it out of context.