Proverbs 23:31

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

double post

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

For those of you who want a verse to show God's people are not to drink alcoholic wine, here ya go:

Psalm 75:8 8 For in the hand of the LORD there is a cup, and the wine is red; it is full of mixture; and he poureth out of the same: but the dregs thereof, all the wicked of the earth shall wring them out, and drink them.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Yes, Psalm 75:8 clearly shows it is the wicked who drink the fermented beverage, not the righteous.

Good verse

 

[whatever]

Maybe y'all ought to read the whole Psalm. I find it hard to believe that anyone thinks this passage is relevant to this topic.

 

[PeterM]

The Hebrew word for 'Look' in Proverbs 23:31 is the word 'ra'ah' and it means 'have experience with, consider, esteem, approve'. Given the meaning of the word 'Look' in that chapter, the verse tells us not to have anything to do with alcoholic beverage. Yet many say it is ok to drink in moderation.

How can one not have experience with alcohol and yet partake of it at the same time?

For you to accuse others of "not responding" to others challenges and arguments, you have blundered. You sir have been throwing around your vast knowledge of the original languages, which as far as I can tell is cut and past from other independent, fundamental sources... not you. I in turn POSTED the hebrew for the passage in Proverbs. You have yet to respond... so I will post again.


אַל־תֵּ֥רֶא יַיִן֮ כִּ֪י יִתְאַ֫דָּ֥ם כִּֽי־יִתֵּ֣ן בַּכֹּ֣֯יס עֵינֹ֑ו יִ֝תְהַלֵּ֗ךְ בְּמֵישָׁרִֽים׃

Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia : With Westminster Hebrew Morphology. electronic ed., Pr 23:31. Stuttgart; Glenside PA: German Bible Society; Westminster Seminary, 1996, c1925; morphology c1991.

My hebrew text says... al thra'ah which is a verb, qal, imperfect, second person, masculine, singular, apocopated ending, jussive in form and meaning with the strong prefix attached.

The root of the term used is indeed ra'ah but the form used is stronger, implying staring or glaring, which can be transliterated to lustful gaze not do not experience. Your reasoning is faulty, your command of the languages is questionable and it seems that your using the KJV is not helping you. The word you are hanging your hat on is used only on 3 occasions in the OT text. If your Hebrew text is different please POST it.

By the way, the way you read an epistle or narrative is vastly different from how you read and perform hermaneutical work on proverbs or the psalter.

Just to let you know I am using Libronix Software for this material.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

I saw a similar post in another thread that you posted and you said what I posted was right but had to be taken with the thra 'al.

I took my definition from the Hebrew. The word 'Look' in that passage according to my SwordSearcher, Strongs Exhaustive, Power Bible, Matthew Poole, John Gill, Adam Clarke, and other references, means Do not have experience with.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Even a lustful gaze (desiring it) would be experiencing it (I have yet to see some drink something they do not desire, except in the case of something prescribed by a doctor). Just as a lust for a woman is already considered adultery. Matthew 5

Ver. 31. Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, &c.] Or, "because it is red" {r}; or shows itself red. Which was the only wine used in the land of Canaan, or, however, the most esteemed of, and that most of art which had the best colour; when it had a good, bright, red colour, or sparkled, and looked bright and beautiful, so the word signifies; and then it should not be looked upon: not that it is unlawful to look upon the colour of wine, and thereby judge of its goodness; but it should not be looked upon with a greedy eye, so as vehemently to desire it, which will lead to an intemperate use of it; just as looking upon a woman, so as to lust after her, is forbidden, #Mt 5:28;
when it giveth his colour in the cup: or, its eye in the cup {s}; such a bright, brisk, and beautiful colour, as is like a bright and sparkling eye. Here is a various reading; it is written in the text, "in the purse" {t}; it is read in the margin, "in the cup"; and Jarchi’s note takes in both,

“ he that drinks wine sets his eye on the cup; and the vintner sets his on his purse;”

[when] it moveth itself aright; sparkles in the glass, or goes down the throat pleasantly; or rather looks well to the eye, and appears right and good, and promises a great deal of satisfaction and delight.

Just because the alcohol appears good to a person, does not necessarily mean it is good. There is a way that seemeth right unto a man...

 

[PeterM]

I would agree with Gill to a point, in that it is the "lust of the heart" that causes the person to falter (whether it be for wine, women, or song). I think it is a stretch to take it further. To fix one's gaze (read attention, passion, desire) upon anything so as to displace God from His place of primacy in the life of the believer is the overall point (ie "no other Gods).

The language to communicate "no alcohol" for the believer was available and was certainly communicated in the Nazarite Vow and the command to priests who would be serving in the Temple in Leviticus 10. Those specific commands are not and can not be found in application to the believer today.

Here is the Strong's entry for the overall root, keeping in mind that the verb is in the Qal form, I have highlighted the Qal transliteration possibilities.

7200 רָאָה, רָאֶה, רְאוּת [ra’ah /raw·aw/] v. A primitive root; TWOT 2095; GK 8011 and 8013 and 8021; 1313 occurrences; AV translates as “see” 879 times, “look” 104 times, “behold” 83 times, “shew” 68 times, “appear” 66 times, “consider” 22 times, “seer” 12 times, “spy” six times, “respect” five times, “perceive” five times, “provide” four times, “regard” four times, “enjoy” four times, “lo” three times, “foreseeth” twice, “heed” twice, and translated miscellaneously 74 times. 1 to see, look at, inspect, perceive, consider. 1a (Qal). 1a1 to see. 1a2 to see, perceive. 1a3 to see, have vision. 1a4 to look at, see, regard, look after, see after, learn about, observe, watch, look upon, look out, find out. 1a5 to see, observe, consider, look at, give attention to, discern, distinguish. 1a6 to look at, gaze at. 1b (Niphal). 1b1 to appear, present oneself. 1b2 to be seen. 1b3 to be visible. 1c (Pual) to be seen. 1d (Hiphil). 1d1 to cause to see, show. 1d2 to cause to look intently at, behold, cause to gaze at. 1e (Hophal). 1e1 to be caused to see, be shown. 1e2 to be exhibited to. 1f (Hithpael) to look at each other, face.

Strong, James. The Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible : Showing Every Word of the Test of the Common English Version of the Canonical Books, and Every Occurence of Each Word in Regular Order. electronic ed., H7200. Ontario: Woodside Bible Fellowship., 1996.

Interestingly enough, to experience is not present. The translation would have to fall into one of the bolded forms, with the strong negative attached, hence al thra'ah. And jsut so there is clarity on what qal is, here is the entry for it. Notice the emphasis on "simple" action.

08851 Qal

Qal is the most frequently used verb pattern. It expresses the “simple” or “casual” action of the root in the active voice.

Examples:

he sat, he ate, he went, he said, he rose, he bought

This form accounts for 66.7% of the verbs parsed.

Pierce, Larry. Tense Voice Mood., TVM8851. Ontario: Woodside Bible Fellowship.

 

[ituttut]

The Hebrew word for 'Look' in Proverbs 23:31 is the word 'ra'ah' and it means 'have experience with, consider, esteem, approve'. Given the meaning of the word 'Look' in that chapter, the verse tells us not to have anything to do with alcoholic beverage. Yet many say it is ok to drink in moderation.

How can one not have experience with alcohol and yet partake of it at the same time?

I believe I answered this on another thread for you.

Apart from that why do those that find Grace in the eyes of the Lord get drunk on occasion?

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

no, you answered according to your twisted view of what wine is. Not in line with the Word of God at all.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Libronix is put out by Thomas Nelson, which lately has become very liberal in many of it's views.

Interestingly, in the SwordSearcher, and in the Strongs Exhaustive Concordance that I possess,
*have experience with*
is one of the possible translations for the work "Look" in Proverbs 23:31

I will choose to go by what the Spirit bears witness to me to be truth. Alcoholic Wine is forbidden.

 

[PeterM]

Libronix is put out by Thomas Nelson, which lately has become very liberal in many of it's views.

Libronix is wholly owned, marketed, and distributed by LOGOS Research Systems... Not Thomas Nelson! Thomas Nelson is a publishing company, not the church. Their job is to publish books and materials that are purchased by you and me. Therefore, they will publish things I agree with and disagree with. They are neither liberal or conservative. Their job is to make profit like any other company. You however, with the style of eisegesis you are employing sound alot like a liberal to me.

FYI, The Libronix system contains thousands of books, reference tools, and book titles from a myriad of perspectives and publishers. It has particular theological bent and is the single best computing tool available. It really is no different than having the same number of books on your shelf.

Interestingly, in the SwordSearcher, and in the Strongs Exhaustive Concordance that I possess, *have experience with* is one of the possible translations for the work "Look" in Proverbs 23:31

ONE of the possible... out of how many. Face the facts, you have chosen a particular belief and are attempting to make certain elements of scripture fit that position. You fail in nearly every hermaneutical test to develop appropriate doctrinal thinking, and you refuse to even acknowledge that you might be wrong. If it helps... I MIGHT BE WRONG!

I will choose to go by what the Spirit bears witness to me to be truth. Alcoholic Wine is forbidden.

My singular hope is not that you would ever drink as I support your personal decision to not do so, but instead to allow yourself to receive the fellowship of others with whom you disagree, and to expose yourself to the TOTALITY of thought on this particular non-essential issue. Via con Dios

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

My sincere hope is that you one day see the truth before your telling people that God approves of His Children drinking alcohol puts too many on that path to destruction. Proselytizing them to a lifetime of drunkenness.

May God have mercy on all those who take that stand of claiming alcohol is ok in the life of a Christian and on those who believe and teach that Jesus Christ made and drank alcoholic wine before it is too late.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

My singular hope is not that you would ever drink as I support your personal decision to not do so, but instead to allow yourself to receive the fellowship of others with whom you disagree, and to expose yourself to the TOTALITY of thought on this particular non-essential issue. Via con Dios

Are you kidding? My Bible tells me not to keep company with winebibbers and you are telling me to receive their fellowship?

My Bible tells me that alcohol is forbidden in the life of the Christian, yet you tell me it is a non-essential issue?

My Bible is correct in teaching that in the last days many false prophets shall arise.

 

[webdog]

Are you kidding? My Bible tells me not to keep company with winebibbers and you are telling me to receive their fellowship?

Jesus...the "friend of sinners" can, but you are too good to?

My Bible tells me that alcohol is forbidden in the life of the Christian, yet you tell me it is a non-essential issue?

Your Bible does not say that, unless you read a different Bible than I do.

My Bible is correct in teaching that in the last days many false prophets shall arise.

Amen!

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Jesus...the "friend of sinners" can, but you are too good to?

It is not that I am too good to be among the winebibbers, it is a fact that God's Holy Word says not to be among them.

Proverbs 23:20 20 Be not among winebibbers; among riotous eaters of flesh:

Your Bible does not say that, unless you read a different Bible than I do.

Again, God's Holy Word tells us to abstain from alcoholic beverages.

Proverbs 23:31 31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

Look not thou means, as has been pointed out before, do not experience.

To say it means to just not look upon as some would infer makes no sense whatsoever as it is speaking of alcoholic beverage. Why would God tell a person they could not look at alcoholic beverage but they could drink it. That is where the 'moderation' advocates are really absurd.

 

[ituttut]

no, you answered according to your twisted view of what wine is. Not in line with the Word of God at all.

You never take seriously the Word of God. Noah got drunk. You are at odds with your maker.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Oh, so now if the Child of God does not get drunk he is at odds with God?

Man you need to read the Word of God with understanding and wisdom instead of prejudice.

 

[corndogggy]

If it is so clear, then why don't you simply exegete the passage and show us where it is "clearly" speaking of addiction.

That entire chapter is clearly speaking of addiction, alcoholism, and drunkenness. It mentions bloodshot eyes, feeling like you are beat up, feeling like you are sleeping on the high seas due to being dizzy, hallucinations, passing out, then waking up and immediately wanting more. These things simply are not related to very moderate drinking. The only way that anything in this chapter could ever be interpreted to say you should never touch alcohol whatsoever is if you nitpicked a short passage and took it out of context.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Solomon said look not thou upon the fermented drink. He did not say have a few and then stop.

Besides, this is not the only verse in the Word of God that teaches abstinence. There are many more that have been given by Godly teachers to show we are to abstain.