Proverbs 23:31

[Ransom]

HBSMN said:

The fact that new wine was also left to stand on its lees just the same as old wine as we have just learnt. The difference is that while the lees (dregs, skin particles) added to the strength of the old wine (alcoholic) the lees in the new wine (unfermented) merely added to its sweetness and colour.

Clearly whoever wrote this has never tried eating just the skins or seeds of the grape. Grape skin is a major source of tannins for red wine, and tannins are bitter.

 

[DeeJay]

HBSMN said:

The fact that new wine was also left to stand on its lees just the same as old wine as we have just learnt. The difference is that while the lees (dregs, skin particles) added to the strength of the old wine (alcoholic) the lees in the new wine (unfermented) merely added to its sweetness and colour.

Clearly whoever wrote this has never tried eating just the skins or seeds of the grape. Grape skin is a major source of tannins for red wine, and tannins are bitter.

Well sort of. Wine starts fermenting as soon as the grape is crushed. The lees are full of fruit pulp and skins on the first racking. If you let the grape juice sit on them you will have full fermentation within the first day. The alcohol % will be low but you will have alcohol by the next day. I can see this by the way the juice "boils" air bubbles coming up like perculating coffee.

After a few days you rack the wine (syphone the juice into a new fermenter leaving behind the lees). The second and third racking will leave fine lees that look like the sediment of clay on a river bottom.

The lees in the bottle of well aged wine are very fine and thin they are only dead yeast cells.

White wine is not allowed to sit on its skins and pulp (lees) it is imediatly racked after crushing. It still produces lees in the fermenter but since they are dead yeast and not fruit they impart no color or flavor.

 

[DeeJay]

Lees (fermentation)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lees_(fermentation)#searchInput
Lees refers to deposits of dead yeast or residual yeast and other particles that precipitate, or are carried by the action of "fining", to the bottom of a vat of wine after fermentation and aging.
Normally the wine is transferred to another container (racking), leaving this sediment behind. Some wines, (notably Muscadet), are sometimes aged for a time on the lees (a process known as sur lie), leading to a distinctive yeasty aroma and taste. The lees may be stirred (batonnage in French) in order to promote uptake of the lees character.
Derived from French term lies. Hence, such slightly archaic phrases as 'drained to the lees.'
US winemakers use the term mud.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Alcoholic wine - forbidden. God's Word Prov. 23:31

 

[DeeJay]

Alcoholic wine - forbidden. God's Word Prov. 23:31

HBSMN

At least be honest with the one scripture you use. That only says red wine right. Why specify instead of saying look not on wine. I take from that white wine is ok with you.

Now you say that that scripture says alcoholic wine - forbidden instead of red wine. Why are you trying to mislead people.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

not only red wine, but wine tht moves in the cup, fermented. Any alcohol.

 

[DeeJay]

not only red wine, but wine tht moves in the cup, fermented. Any alcohol.

Once again fully fermented alcohol has all of the yeast cells dead. Your move in the cup does not cut it. However since you have been carefull to point out that wine is not always fermented and I know that fresh grape juice is full of leaven (yeast) then the wine that moves in the cup must be fresh grape juice.

So we can not drink fresh unfermented grape juice and red wine. Fully fermented white wine is not prohibited.

 

[annsni]

I have to come back to the fact that Jesus made wine - not just juice because then it wouldn't matter when the juice was served. The fact that the man said that most serve the good wine at first and then the lesser wine later (why would it matter unless they were affected by the first wine) tells me that it is true wine that Jesus made and not just Welch's.

If nothing else, Jesus made wine so how can it be a sin - Jesus wouldn't sin or cause anyone else to do so either.

Annie

 

[corndogggy]

Some of these burning questions like this I have to ponder if they were specifically tackled in some of the religious books that didn't make it to the bible. I mean, the Christian bible wasn't created until something like 350 A.D., then there was a big debate about which of the separate religioius books would make it into the Christian bible, and some of them such as the book of Jubilee never made it... just makes me wonder if one of those books specifically and undoubtedly answers some of these debated things yet some of the folks that were putting the bible together suppressed them for whatever reason, just as they did with Jubilee.

Also makes me wonder that if it were as big of a deal as some of you believe, why was it not the 11th commandment?????? Why didn't God just come out and say "Thou shalt not drink any form of alcohol whatsoever"??? Apparently coveting your neighbor's house is much more of a big deal, yet I haven't heard about any plans made by the southern baptist convention to boycott MTV Cribs or HGTV because they show a bunch of crazy nice houses that people love to drool over.

 

[ACADEMIC]

The Hebrew word for 'Look' in Proverbs 23:31 is the word 'ra'ah' and it means 'have experience with, consider, esteem, approve'. Given the meaning of the word 'Look' in that chapter, the verse tells us not to have anything to do with alcoholic beverage. Yet many say it is ok to drink in moderation.

How can one not have experience with alcohol and yet partake of it at the same time?

Because the passage and context you quote is itself teaching moderation. Like the rest of the Bible.

Do yourself a favor and buy and study Kenneth Gentry's book God Gave Wine: What the Bible Says About Alcohol. Then come back and tackle this matter instead of just continually playing the novitiate.

While you wait for your book to arrive, try a little experiment. Get some grapes, juice them, and put the juice into a clean milk jug and cap it. Then leave it sit for a week or two at room temperature. Open it, smell it, and then come back tell me that the wine in the Bible was alcohol-free grape juice.

Meanwhile also, check the date of when the refrigerator was invented: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refrigerators

 

[av1611jim]

Or you could simply do a little bit of investigation as to what happens to a person when they consume an alcoholic beverage.

And then honestly ask yourself if it is of God.

For example

http://home.howstuffworks.com/alcohol5.htm

I really hope you all will look at this honestly. This author has a PHD in this field. Can you honestly say that God approves of even the tiniest amount of this stuff? Leave your prejudices at the doorand honestly check out the link and its information. FYI 0.03% BAC is = or < one drink per hour.

 

[DeeJay]

Or you could simply do a little bit of investigation as to what happens to a person when they consume an alcoholic beverage.

And then honestly ask yourself if it is of God.

For example

http://home.howstuffworks.com/alcohol5.htm

I really hope you all will look at this honestly. This author has a PHD in this field. Can you honestly say that God approves of even the tiniest amount of this stuff? Leave your prejudices at the doorand honestly check out the link and its information. FYI 0.03% BAC is = or < one drink per hour.

1611jim

I am heading home from work right now. When I get home I am going to do like you ask and conduct an investigation in to what happens when a person consumes an alcoholic beverage.

I am also going to investigate what happens when a person consumes a hamburger and maybe some cooked vegies.

I will be back tomorow to let you know what the results of my investigation were. :thumbsup:

 

[ACADEMIC]

Or you could simply do a little bit of investigation as to what happens to a person when they consume an alcoholic beverage.

And then honestly ask yourself if it is of God.

Sure, here is some info from the Wikipedia encyclopedia under the subject "Wine":

The health effects of wine (and alcohol in general) are the subject of considerable ongoing study. In the USA, a boom in red wine consumption was touched off in the 1990s by '60 Minutes', and other news reports on the French paradox.

It now seems clear that regular consumption of up to 1-2 drinks a day (1 standard drink is approximately equal to 5 oz, or 125 ml, of 13% wine) does reduce mortality, due to a 10%–40% lower risk of coronary heart disease, especially for those over the age of 35 or so (see Alcohol consumption and health). Originally, the effect was observed with red wine. Compounds, known as polyphenols, are found in larger amounts in red wine, and there is some evidence that these are especially beneficial. One particularly interesting polyphenol antioxidant found in red wine is resveratrol, to which numerous beneficial effects have been attributed. Red wine also contains a significant amount of flavonoids and red anthocyanin pigments that act as antioxidants. With excessive consumption, however, any health benefits may be offset by the increased rate of various alcohol-related diseases, primarily cancers of mouth, upper respiratory tract, and ultimately, cirrhosis of liver, especially if consumption of red wine is immoderate.

Other studies have shown that similar beneficial effects on the heart can be obtained from drinking beer, and distilled spirits. However, recent studies show that only red wine reduces the risk of contracting several types of cancer where beer and other alcoholic beverages show no change. Dr. Sinclair of Harvard University and others claim that resveratrol is the active molecule responsible for the significant difference in lowering cancer risks and that the required amounts are only found in red wine.


If used in moderation, this is some really wonderfull and healthful stuff God made and gave to us, don't you think?

BTW, none of the above benefits can be obtained from drinking unfermented grape juice.

 

[ACADEMIC]

"We don't want people to drink to much (common, "look" has the idea of a gaze, hence the word "esteem" in the meaning), so we'll just say 'it's all bad'".

The same logic can be applied to women.

Celibacy all the way! YEA!!!!

NOT.

 

[ACADEMIC]

Or you could simply do a little bit of investigation as to what happens to a person when they consume an alcoholic beverage.

And then honestly ask yourself if it is of God.

For example

http://home.howstuffworks.com/alcohol5.htm

I really hope you all will look at this honestly. This author has a PHD in this field. Can you honestly say that God approves of even the tiniest amount of this stuff? Leave your prejudices at the doorand honestly check out the link and its information. FYI 0.03% BAC is = or < one drink per hour.

Uh, hate to burst your bubble again but the article is not about, as you say, "what happens to a person when they consume an alcoholic beverage."

It is, in the article's own words, about the effects of alcohol on people who have had "too much to drink."

It is not about people who consume alcohol in moderation. It is about drunkeness. No one disputes that drunkeness is sin, except perhaps for things like when you are a thousand miles from medicine but need your broken leg set.

Brother, your posts exhibit some real hackmanship. Please stop playing the fool and I will stop answering you according to your folly.

--------------------------------------

 

[DeeJay]

1611jim

I am heading home from work right now. When I get home I am going to do like you ask and conduct an investigation in to what happens when a person consumes an alcoholic beverage.

I am also going to investigate what happens when a person consumes a hamburger and maybe some cooked vegies.

I will be back tomorow to let you know what the results of my investigation were. :thumbsup:

Investigation results.

Well I got home and there was no more hamburger. I had to settle for chicken breast and a cookie.

The cookie was good home made so I had a large glass of milk instead of the alcoholic beverage. I had to delay my investigation until proper red meat is purchased on shoping day.

 

[ituttut]

Oh, so now if the Child of God does not get drunk he is at odds with God?

Man you need to read the Word of God with understanding and wisdom instead of prejudice.

Read again. You mock His Word, not me.

Understanding God's relationship with Noah, and "wine" will help release you from the understanding someone wishes you to continue in, which is unbelief in His Word.

The lesson is clear. We learn from this the reason people get drunk. They get drunk when they drink too much "wine". If we don't drink too much wine, then we don't get drunk. It's really not hard to understand the Word of God. All we have to do is believe Him.

He gave us His Word to "gladden" our Spiritual hearts intellectually, and He gave us wine with Spirit to gladden our saved sinner hearts. Noah found Grace in the eyes of the Lord, and the Lord added to that grace "wine" for His faithful servant.

1. Faithful servants accept His gift and will drink wine, or we won't, but we believe His Word when He says "wine" will make you dunk.

2. The unsaved can become drunkards on wine, and they don't care one way or the other.
3. Others that say they believe His Word do not believe His Word as they will not touch wine, for they believe "grape juice is wine", which cannot make one drunk. This proves they don't believe His Word as His "gift" to man can make a drunkard out of man.

All men find themselves in one of these positions. Please circle which is your belief.

 

[ituttut]

And then honestly ask yourself if it is of God..

If we are honest we should believe God and quit trying to use our own reasoning. We find the truth in His Book, which we cannot always do in someone else's book.

"He watereth the hills ….. 14. He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle,…..; 15. And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart." Psalms 104:13-55. Ituttut did not make this up, or did annsni, or ACADEMIC. This is the scripture praising, thanking, and giving the glory to the Word of God. In faith we are to accept His Word.

 

[ACADEMIC]

Where'd you go, av1611jim?

 

[DHK]

BTW, none of the above benefits can be obtained from drinking unfermented grape juice.

If you do some research on the internet, you will find that in recent research they have discovered that there are more antioxidants in coffee than in any other beverage. So much for the wine!
DHK