Purgatory

[Silverhair]

No. The work of determining the Canon was all done by the Catholic Church inspired by God as the Church founded by Christ Himself.
And without reference to the Jews or anyone else.

Professor Peter Flint was a very smart Baptist scholar, in the face of all the evidence he was intellectually honest enough to accept the facts, God rest him.

Catholics are the pre Bible Church that established the Bible.

There is the arrogance of the RCC. You fail to prove your point and deny clear history.

For the New Testament, the process of the recognition and collection began in the first centuries of the Christian church. Very early on, some of the New Testament books were being recognized. Paul considered Luke’s writings to be as authoritative as the Old Testament (1 Timothy 5:18; see also Deuteronomy 25:4 and Luke 10:7). Peter recognized Paul’s writings as Scripture (2 Peter 3:15-16). Some of the books of the New Testament were being circulated among the churches (Colossians 4:16; 1 Thessalonians 5:27). Clement of Rome mentioned at least eight New Testament books (A.D. 95). Polycarp, a disciple of John the apostle, acknowledged 15 books (A.D. 108). Ignatius of Antioch acknowledged about seven books (A.D. 115). Later, Irenaeus mentioned 21 books (A.D. 185). Hippolytus recognized 22 books (A.D. 170-235). The New Testament books receiving the most controversy were Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, 2 John, and 3 John.

Ultimately, it was God who decided what books belonged in the biblical canon. A book of Scripture belonged in the canon from the moment God inspired its writing.

You can continue to be dishonest with yourself but you are wasting your time trying to convince a Baptists that your RCC is an honest broker regarding anything Christian.

 

[canadyjd]

Purgatory is made up Catholic nonsense designed to terrify the unlearned into giving money to the church to ease the “suffering” of loved ones that have passed away. It is not taught in scripture, but is taught in pagan literature embrace by the RCC for that purpose.

It is a lie straight out of the mouth of Satan, given to Satan’s mouthpiece on earth (the pope) and his many demonic servants (paedo priests, bishops, cardinals)

Peace to you

 

[Cathode]

There is the arrogance of the RCC. You fail to prove your point and deny clear history.

For the New Testament, the process of the recognition and collection began in the first centuries of the Christian church. Very early on, some of the New Testament books were being recognized. Paul considered Luke’s writings to be as authoritative as the Old Testament (1 Timothy 5:18; see also Deuteronomy 25:4 and Luke 10:7). Peter recognized Paul’s writings as Scripture (2 Peter 3:15-16). Some of the books of the New Testament were being circulated among the churches (Colossians 4:16; 1 Thessalonians 5:27). Clement of Rome mentioned at least eight New Testament books (A.D. 95). Polycarp, a disciple of John the apostle, acknowledged 15 books (A.D. 108). Ignatius of Antioch acknowledged about seven books (A.D. 115). Later, Irenaeus mentioned 21 books (A.D. 185). Hippolytus recognized 22 books (A.D. 170-235). The New Testament books receiving the most controversy were Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, 2 John, and 3 John.

Ultimately, it was God who decided what books belonged in the biblical canon. A book of Scripture belonged in the canon from the moment God inspired its writing.

You can continue to be dishonest with yourself but you are wasting your time trying to convince a Baptists that your RCC is an honest broker regarding anything Christian.

The Muratori fragment is named after Father Ludovico Antonio Muratori a Catholic priest, historian and scholar of renown.
Muratori discovered the fragment in the Ambrosian library in Milan. It was a copy of a second century original made in the 700’s at the Bobbio Abbey.
It was the earliest list of books of the New Testament preserved by the Catholic Church.
It is a Catholic document preserved from the second century in the Catholic Church.
Clement of Rome’s writings are all handed down through the Catholic Church.

Polycarp writings Catholic Church source.

Ignatius of Antioch writings Catholic Church source.

Irenaeus writings Catholic Church source.

Hippolytus writings Catholic Church source.

These are all the Catholic Apostolic sources the Catholic Councils used to determine the Canon.

 

[Silverhair]

The Muratori fragment is named after Father Ludovico Antonio Muratori a Catholic priest, historian and scholar of renown.
Muratori discovered the fragment in the Ambrosian library in Milan. It was a copy of a second century original made in the 700’s at the Bobbio Abbey.
It was the earliest list of books of the New Testament preserved by the Catholic Church.
It is a Catholic document preserved from the second century in the Catholic Church.
Clement of Rome’s writings are all handed down through the Catholic Church.

Polycarp writings Catholic Church source.

Ignatius of Antioch writings Catholic Church source.

Irenaeus writings Catholic Church source.

Hippolytus writings Catholic Church source.

These are all the Catholic Apostolic sources the Catholic Councils used to determine the Canon.

I know the history and you are ignoring that is there in plain text.

Clement of Rome mentioned at least eight New Testament books (A.D. 95).
Polycarp, a disciple of John the apostle, acknowledged 15 books (A.D. 108).
Ignatius of Antioch acknowledged about seven books (A.D. 115).
Later, Irenaeus mentioned 21 books (A.D. 185).
Hippolytus recognized 22 books (A.D. 170-235).

They did not make those books scripture God did. The people accepted those books and those writers just made lists of the books that the people had accepted.

You just will not accept the fact that the RCC did not set the canon. God did.

Do you think that God needed the RCC to show people what books were part of His canon? The RCC could not even get that right as they chose to include extra biblical texts that are not scripture.

The people directed by God had already set the canon. The Rcc are just Johny come lately's looking for pats on the back for a job not well done.

 

[Cathode]

I know the history and you are ignoring that is there in plain text.

Clement of Rome mentioned at least eight New Testament books (A.D. 95).
Polycarp, a disciple of John the apostle, acknowledged 15 books (A.D. 108).
Ignatius of Antioch acknowledged about seven books (A.D. 115).
Later, Irenaeus mentioned 21 books (A.D. 185).
Hippolytus recognized 22 books (A.D. 170-235).

They did not make those books scripture God did. The people accepted those books and those writers just made lists of the books that the people had accepted.

You just will not accept the fact that the RCC did not set the canon. God did.

Do you think that God needed the RCC to show people what books were part of His canon? The RCC could not even get that right as they chose to include extra biblical texts that are not scripture.

The people directed by God had already set the canon. The Rcc are just Johny come lately's looking for pats on the back for a job not well done.

You carry such a burden of prejudice, that you can not acknowledge the Catholic Church’s role in preserving the Scriptures and determining the Canon of the Bible.
All these early Christians you mention are early Catholics, their lists of books are part of the Apostolic Tradition that the Catholic Councils referred to in determining the Bible.

All the writings of these Church Fathers are Catholic patrimony and only found handed down in Catholic history and Tradition.

These are canonised saints, fathers and scholars of the Catholic Church.

All the early Christians are Catholics, these men you mention are Catholic Bishops and we only know of them because they are Catholic history and Tradition.

 

[Silverhair]

You carry such a burden of prejudice, that you can not acknowledge the Catholic Church’s role in preserving the Scriptures and determining the Canon of the Bible.
All these early Christians you mention are early Catholics, their lists of books are part of the Apostolic Tradition that the Catholic Councils referred to in determining the Bible.

All the writings of these Church Fathers are Catholic patrimony and only found handed down in Catholic history and Tradition.

These are canonised saints, fathers and scholars of the Catholic Church.

All the early Christians are Catholics, these men you mention are Catholic Bishops and we only know of them because they are Catholic history and Tradition.

What do you not understand about the canon. The canon was not determined by men but by God. The words the apostles wrote were canon the moment they wrote them.

Those men just made lists of books that were in the canon. They did not make them part of the canon by listing them.

If we trusted a group of men to determine the books of God's canon they could have included extra biblical texts in the bible. Oh wait your RCC did include extra biblical texts in your bible so as to support your false doctrines.

The RCC has done more to harm the church than to support it. God has preserved His word in spite of the efforts of the RCC to alter it.

 

[Cathode]

What do you not understand about the canon. The canon was not determined by men but by God. The words the apostles wrote were canon the moment they wrote them.

The Catholic Church is Apostolic, that’s how the Catholic Church preserved all the writings of the Apostles to determine and assemble the Bible and declare it at Catholic Councils.
Early Christian history is Catholic history.

Catholics are original Christianity.

 

[Silverhair]

The Catholic Church is Apostolic, that’s how the Catholic Church preserved all the writings of the Apostles to determine and assemble the Bible and declare it at Catholic Councils.
Early Christian history is Catholic history.

Catholics are original Christianity.

There you go again spouting RCC false teachings. Your whole post is just circular reasoning. You want me to believe the false teaching of the RCC that you say support the RCC.

You even go so far as to say that the RCC determined what the canon was. That is laughable. The RCC was the one that chose to include extra biblical texts and call them scripture.

Your RCC history is made up of what can be called hole cloth. Your history is the story you tell the uneducated to mislead them. By the time they are old enough to understand truth they have been so indoctrinated by the RCC falsehoods they will not accept the truth.

 

[Cathode]

There you go again spouting RCC false teachings. Your whole post is just circular reasoning. You want me to believe the false teaching of the RCC that you say support the RCC.

You even go so far as to say that the RCC determined what the canon was. That is laughable. The RCC was the one that chose to include extra biblical texts and call them scripture.

Your RCC history is made up of what can be called hole cloth. Your history is the story you tell the uneducated to mislead them. By the time they are old enough to understand truth they have been so indoctrinated by the RCC falsehoods they will not accept the truth.

Protestants have to try and rewrite history to justify their unbelief, because they do not exist in early Church history.

Catholics preserved the Scriptures from the Apostles and created the Canon of Scripture from its own tradition, the succession of bishops like Clement, Hippólytus, Irenaeus, Ignatius etc.

These are all Catholic Bishops and Fathers, their writings only come down to us through the Catholic Church because they are Catholic history.

The Bible is entirely Catholic.

The Council of Rome declared 73 books 382 Ad. First Bible.

The Council of Hippo declared 73 books 393 Ad.

The Council of Carthage declared 73 books 397 Ad

The Council of Trent declared 73 books 1545 Ad.

Protestants tell themselves lies and falsehoods because they have butchered their bibles which is unjustifiable.
The Bible was always 73 books from the beginning, Catholics didn’t add books, Protestants removed books that disagreed with their human founded theology, deceiving generations of their brethren.

Stop clinging to falsehoods and lies, that are so easily proven false by opening a history book.

 

[Silverhair]

Protestants have to try and rewrite history to justify their unbelief, because they do not exist in early Church history.

Catholics preserved the Scriptures from the Apostles and created the Canon of Scripture from its own tradition, the succession of bishops like Clement, Hippólytus, Irenaeus, Ignatius etc.

These are all Catholic Bishops and Fathers, their writings only come down to us through the Catholic Church because they are Catholic history.

The Bible is entirely Catholic.

The Council of Rome declared 73 books 382 Ad. First Bible.

The Council of Hippo declared 73 books 393 Ad.

The Council of Carthage declared 73 books 397 Ad

The Council of Trent declared 73 books 1545 Ad.

Protestants tell themselves lies and falsehoods because they have butchered their bibles which is unjustifiable.
The Bible was always 73 books from the beginning, Catholics didn’t add books, Protestants removed books that disagreed with their human founded theology, deceiving generations of their brethren.

Stop clinging to falsehoods and lies, that are so easily proven false by opening a history book.

Oh foolish man that you are. Why would I trust what comes from the false history of the RCC. The RCC did not preserve the scriptures God did. All I see form your posts just proves how corrupt your false system is.

Your own post show the errors and you are so blind you do not see them. You think councils of men dictate to God what is His word. They were fools and you are one to believe them.

There have always been those that held to the clear scriptures as the apostles penned them under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Your RCC has always persecuted those that stand against their false teachings but God has preserved His true scriptures through it all.

Your own pope thinks to put himself in the position of Christ and the RCC has interjected Mary and your saints between man and God.

The RCC has preached a false gospel of salvation through works and trusting in your false doctrines but God has an answer for that.
Gal 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.

We are saved by the Grace of God not by the works of the RCC. Those that abuse the word of God are, to use a word you should be familiar with, anathema.

 

[Cathode]

Oh foolish man that you are. Why would I trust what comes from the false history of the RCC. The RCC did not preserve the scriptures God did. All I see form your posts just proves how corrupt your false system is.

Your own post show the errors and you are so blind you do not see them. You think councils of men dictate to God what is His word. They were fools and you are one to believe them.

These are the heads of all the early Catholic Churches gathered in Councils determining the Bible, they determined all the books in your Bible.

The Bible itself is not Scriptural, there is no inspired book listing which books belong in the Bible.
The Bible is Catholic, determined by Catholics from Catholic Tradition in Catholic Councils.
Your 66 books still rely on the Authority of The Catholic Church that preserved, authenticated and determined each of those books.

Have some intellectual honesty and guts to admit the truth, not obstinately wallow in lies and falsehoods.

Real Protestant and Baptist scholars admit these truths of history, they aren’t cowards, and they have real intellectual honesty and integrity.

 

[Cathode]

Interestingly.

Even the word Bible is not in the Bible. It was coined by Catholics. It means books from the Greek word βυβλος-byblos meaning "papyrus", from the ancient Phoenician city of Byblos which exported papyrus, the "paper" of the day.

The Bible is entirely Catholic, preserved and established by the Catholic Church guided by God.

 

[Silverhair]

These are the heads of all the early Catholic Churches gathered in Councils determining the Bible, they determined all the books in your Bible.

The Bible itself is not Scriptural, there is no inspired book listing which books belong in the Bible.
The Bible is Catholic, determined by Catholics from Catholic Tradition in Catholic Councils.
Your 66 books still rely on the Authority of The Catholic Church that preserved, authenticated and determined each of those books.

Have some intellectual honesty and guts to admit the truth, not obstinately wallow in lies and falsehoods.

Real Protestant and Baptist scholars admit these truths of history, they aren’t cowards, and they have real intellectual honesty and integrity.

Your continued posts just show that you really do not believe that God determined His canon. God preserved His bible even through the corrupt RCC.
As long as you hold to the false idea that a group of fallen men told God what books could be considered scripture you will never see the truth.

Do you not even believe Christ when he referred to the OT as scripture.
Luk 4:21 And He began to say to them, "Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing." referring to what He did in Luk 4:18.

or here speaking of Christ
Joh_19:36 For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture, "NOT A BONE OF HIM SHALL BE BROKEN."

Are you going to say the NT was not inspired by the Holy Spirit?
2Ti_3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

Have some intellectual honesty and guts to admit the truth. You have built your faith on the lie foisted on you by the RCC.

Your whole argument is built on circular reasoning. The bible shows that you have built a house of cards.

 

[Cathode]

Your continued posts just show that you really do not believe that God determined His canon. God preserved His bible even through the corrupt RCC.
As long as you hold to the false idea that a group of fallen men told God what books could be considered scripture you will never see the truth.

No, God told a group of fallen men what is Scripture in Catholic Councils and those Councils told the World.

God didn’t do this on his own, He used the human agency in the Catholic Church, His Church.

So besides that, the 73 books of the Bible remain the same from the beginning.

No Protestants aided in the Bibles construction, they have only detracted from it, and misinterpreted it in every conflicted way. Nullifying it by those conflicted human opinions.

The Catholic Church is the biblical Church, always has been.

 

[Cathode]

Mary conceived and birthed The Word of God Incarnate, Jesus.

The Catholic Church conceived and birthed the Written Word of God, the Bible.

Just like no one knows Jesus like Mary.

No one knows the Bible like the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church is the Mother of The Bible.

“And if ever thou art sojourning in cities, inquire not simply where the Lord’s House is (for the other sects of the profane also attempt to call their own dens houses of the Lord), nor merely where the Church is, but where is the Catholic Church. For this is the peculiar name of this Holy Church, the mother of us all, which is the spouse of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Only-begotten Son of God.” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 18:23,26 (A.D. 350).

 

[Silverhair]

No, God told a group of fallen men what is Scripture in Catholic Councils and those Councils told the World.

God didn’t do this on his own, He used the human agency in the Catholic Church, His Church.

So besides that, the 73 books of the Bible remain the same from the beginning.

No Protestants aided in the Bibles construction, they have only detracted from it, and misinterpreted it in every conflicted way. Nullifying it by those conflicted human opinions.

The Catholic Church is the biblical Church, always has been.

To say you are only delusional would be a compliment for you. You are attempting to show that the RCC is valid but God holy word shows that your whole system is in error. The RCC form of salvation is a system of works, you think your pope and priests have taken the place of Christ and can forgive sins, you have introduced false doctrines into your system, Mary worship, praying to dead saints etc.

But on top of all that you think you can tell God what is scripture. The arrogance of the corrupt organization is beyond belief.

Do you not fear God? You will be held to account for the support you have given to that system.

 

[Silverhair]

Mary conceived and birthed The Word of God Incarnate, Jesus.

The Catholic Church conceived and birthed the Written Word of God, the Bible.

Just like no one knows Jesus like Mary.

No one knows the Bible like the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church is the Mother of The Bible.

“And if ever thou art sojourning in cities, inquire not simply where the Lord’s House is (for the other sects of the profane also attempt to call their own dens houses of the Lord), nor merely where the Church is, but where is the Catholic Church. For this is the peculiar name of this Holy Church, the mother of us all, which is the spouse of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Only-begotten Son of God.” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 18:23,26 (A.D. 350).

Have you ever heard the expression, when your in a hole stop digging. The more you post the more you show the gross errors of that false system.

 

[Cathode]

Have you ever heard the expression, when your in a hole stop digging. The more you post the more you show the gross errors of that false system.

Who are you to declare what is false?

You have been indoctrinated in the new human founded interpretations of scripture. You are now hearing the ancient and true understandings of scripture. To the extent that you feel alienated from original Christianity, is the extent you have been envenomated by toxic human interpretations of scripture, and the gangrene of prejudice has set in.

The Catholic Church isn’t what you were told it is, these were lies to poison you against your mother.
Protestantism is the worst case of parental alienation in human history.

When you snap out of it, Mother Church will be waiting for you.

The same animus you guys seem to show Mary, is the same animus you display against the Catholic Church, there is a reason for this, and not a good one.

 

[JesusFan]

Catholic Church great Whore of Babylon

 

[Silverhair]

Who are you to declare what is false?

You have been indoctrinated in the new human founded interpretations of scripture. You are now hearing the ancient and true understandings of scripture. To the extent that you feel alienated from original Christianity, is the extent you have been envenomated by toxic human interpretations of scripture, and the gangrene of prejudice has set in.

The Catholic Church isn’t what you were told it is, these were lies to poison you against your mother.
Protestantism is the worst case of parental alienation in human history.

When you snap out of it, Mother Church will be waiting for you.

The same animus you guys seem to show Mary, is the same animus you display against the Catholic Church, there is a reason for this, and not a good one.

It it the holy word of God that declares the RCC to be false.

Your additions to His word, your abuse of His word, the addition of your traditions, the addition of works for salvation, the addition of prayers to save people that have already died, the addition of your pope to replace Christ here on earth. that your priests can forgive sin, that you think mere men could dictate to God what is His Holy Word, that mary can intercede for you in heaven, that dead saints can do the same as her.

You have so many false doctrines in that system you could not even call it a church. That whole system is affront to God.