Purgatory

[Cathode]

Thanks for replying Cathode.

Over the years, I came to the conclusion after learning, researching about the Bible issue about the many unbiblical things that churches do such as X-mas, Ischatar, and serveral other things which I had to unlearn.

Though the fact remains, the Holy Bible is the word of God: its for doctrine, reprove, and instruction.

Howoever, I am not sure what this word called "Apostolic Tradition" is referring to and its meaning. Kindly expand, and thanks.

As well, I would like to hear the verses that support purgatory, it would be more contrustive.

Imagine an old whiskey distiller who follows an old formula to make whiskey, some of the formula is written down but is hard to read, but the other part of the formula is Oral Tradition he was taught from boyhood by the previous old distiller, who had learned from boyhood the same Oral Tradition from his previous old distiller.
The written formula remained the same, and the way it was understood and interpreted generationally by Oral Tradition remained the same from the original distiller in the beginning.

This is like Catholicism.

Imagine some young bloke takes the written formula for himself and tries to follow it founding his own distillery from his interpretation of the written formula alone.
One of his apprentices disagrees with the guy on his interpretation of the written formula and founds his own distillery, interpreting the written formula differently again.
This keeps happening to these written formula alone distillers, till none of them resemble the original old distiller, and what they produce is as different from each other as it is from the genuine original.

This is like Bible alone Protestantism.

Catholicism is the Real McCoy, it maintains the original true and smooth interpretation of the written word unchanged down the generations by Oral Tradition aged in finest oak barrels for 2000 years. Watched over only by approved men dedicated to time honoured Tradition from the misty mountains of wisdom.

Now you could choose to drink the various shades of Camel urine concocted by the new fangled formula alone distillers, all using there own interpretation of the same written formula and each coming up with conflicting results to the other.
Or you could pour yourself a nice fine glass of the Real McCoy.

There’s nothing like The Real McCoy.

 

[GodisgraciousR325]

Imagine an old whiskey distiller who follows an old formula to make whiskey, some of the formula is written down but is hard to read, but the other part of the formula is Oral Tradition he was taught from boyhood by the previous old distiller, who had learned from boyhood the same Oral Tradition from his previous old distiller.
The written formula remained the same, and the way it was understood and interpreted generationally by Oral Tradition remained the same from the original distiller in the beginning.

This is like Catholicism.

Imagine some young bloke takes the written formula for himself and tries to follow it founding his own distillery from his interpretation of the written formula alone.
One of his apprentices disagrees with the guy on his interpretation of the written formula and founds his own distillery, interpreting the written formula differently again.
This keeps happening to these written formula alone distillers, till none of them resemble the original old distiller, and what they produce is as different from each other as it is from the genuine original.

This is like Bible alone Protestantism.

Catholicism is the Real McCoy, it maintains the original true and smooth interpretation of the written word unchanged down the generations by Oral Tradition aged in finest oak barrels for 2000 years. Watched over only by approved men dedicated to time honoured Tradition from the misty mountains of wisdom.

Now you could choose to drink the various shades of Camel urine concocted by the new fangled formula alone distillers, all using there own interpretation of the same written formula and each coming up with conflicting results to the other.
Or you could pour yourself a nice fine glass of the Real McCoy.

There’s nothing like The Real McCoy.

Interesting, but I could say thing for Protestiansm

 

[GodisgraciousR325]

Imagine an old whiskey distiller who follows an old formula to make whiskey, some of the formula is written down but is hard to read, but the other part of the formula is Oral Tradition he was taught from boyhood by the previous old distiller, who had learned from boyhood the same Oral Tradition from his previous old distiller.
The written formula remained the same, and the way it was understood and interpreted generationally by Oral Tradition remained the same from the original distiller in the beginning.

This is like Catholicism.

Imagine some young bloke takes the written formula for himself and tries to follow it founding his own distillery from his interpretation of the written formula alone.
One of his apprentices disagrees with the guy on his interpretation of the written formula and founds his own distillery, interpreting the written formula differently again.
This keeps happening to these written formula alone distillers, till none of them resemble the original old distiller, and what they produce is as different from each other as it is from the genuine original.

This is like Bible alone Protestantism.

Catholicism is the Real McCoy, it maintains the original true and smooth interpretation of the written word unchanged down the generations by Oral Tradition aged in finest oak barrels for 2000 years. Watched over only by approved men dedicated to time honoured Tradition from the misty mountains of wisdom.

Now you could choose to drink the various shades of Camel urine concocted by the new fangled formula alone distillers, all using there own interpretation of the same written formula and each coming up with conflicting results to the other.
Or you could pour yourself a nice fine glass of the Real McCoy.

There’s nothing like The Real McCoy.

The true Bible hath always being around even before the King James, the Bible believing Church of Anitoch and other places had the Greek manuscripts from the true source of Holy Scripture.

There was always other groups who believed in Bible alone, they had the scripture, yes, they might had some differences in doctrine but overall, its the same.

Its by faith we are saved not by works.

 

[Cathode]

Thanks for replying Cathode.

Over the years, I came to the conclusion after learning, researching about the Bible issue about the many unbiblical things that churches do such as X-mas, Ischatar, and serveral other things which I had to unlearn.

Though the fact remains, the Holy Bible is the word of God: its for doctrine, reprove, and instruction.

Howoever, I am not sure what this word called "Apostolic Tradition" is referring to and its meaning. Kindly expand, and thanks.

 

[Cathode]

A man convinced against his will, is of his same opinion still.

Even if I convinced you of the True interpretation of Scripture, you couldn’t accept it.
Accepting the truth has consequences and if a man is unwilling to face those consequences, he is immune to the truth. He can not allow himself to be convinced, even if it is the truth, he can never possess it, he prefers a lie.

Only those who love the truth are worthy of the truth.

If you love the truth, you will go where it leads, no matter the cost.

The truth is like the sword lodged within a great stone, only those worthy can draw it out and hold it up.

It’s the stone in people’s hearts that resists the truth.

The Bible is the truth so long as it is interpreted in truth, otherwise it can be a millstone to those that misinterpret it.

 

[GodisgraciousR325]

A man convinced against his will, is of his same opinion still.

Even if I convinced you of the True interpretation of Scripture, you couldn’t accept it.
Accepting the truth has consequences and if a man is unwilling to face those consequences, he is immune to the truth. He can not allow himself to be convinced, even if it is the truth, he can never possess it, he prefers a lie.

Only those who love the truth are worthy of the truth.

If you love the truth, you will go where it leads, no matter the cost.

The truth is like the sword lodged within a great stone, only those worthy can draw it out and hold it up.

It’s the stone in people’s hearts that resists the truth.

The Bible is the truth so long as it is interpreted in truth, otherwise it can be a millstone to those that misinterpret it.

I love the truth, and I love the Bible.

If its really the truth, then share on.

 

[GodisgraciousR325]

A man convinced against his will, is of his same opinion still.

Even if I convinced you of the True interpretation of Scripture, you couldn’t accept it.
Accepting the truth has consequences and if a man is unwilling to face those consequences, he is immune to the truth. He can not allow himself to be convinced, even if it is the truth, he can never possess it, he prefers a lie.

Only those who love the truth are worthy of the truth.

If you love the truth, you will go where it leads, no matter the cost.

The truth is like the sword lodged within a great stone, only those worthy can draw it out and hold it up.

It’s the stone in people’s hearts that resists the truth.

The Bible is the truth so long as it is interpreted in truth, otherwise it can be a millstone to those that misinterpret it.

Dear Cathode,

I really would like some scripture verses that support purgatory.

 

[Silverhair]

Dear Cathode,

I really would like some scripture verses that support purgatory.

He can not provide any that refer to purgatory as there are none. The RCC has to read into scripture what they need to find for it to be there. But that is the same thing they do for many of their doctrines.

So you will be waiting a long time for any scriptural support forthcoming from @Cathode.

 

[GodisgraciousR325]

He can not provide any that refer to purgatory as there are none. The RCC has to read into scripture what they need to find for it to be there. But that is the same thing they do for many of their doctrines.

So you will be waiting a long time for any scriptural support forthcoming from @Cathode.

There are verses which the Catholics did note in the New Testament that talk about purgatory, though they kind of misinterprate it, though if Cathode wants to share those, he/she can feel free to do so.

As for me, I will believe the Bible is true, there is no need for Acryophal/LXX or any other things, the Bible is always right, and Purgatory is unscriptural.

 

[Walter]

****I tried to post this in response to Cathode in another thread about praying for the dead, but it would not let me post for some reason. So I'm just making it a separate thread.

Here's what the Catholic Encyclopedia says about purgatory...

"Purgatory - A place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are,
not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions."
​

The very definition, according to Catholics, is POLAR opposite of the truth that God, Himself, said in His Word.

One CANNOT pay for their own sins. There is NOTHING one can do in this life or the next to satisfy the wrath of God for their own iniquities - be they "venial" or "mortal" - it matters not. Sin is sin. One can steal from petty cash at work or rape a child. The consequences one pays here are different in terms of jail time or social consequences, but the separation from God is the same. Sin is sin.

ONLY JESUS CHRIST can pay the price for sin.

Hebrews 9 says "It is appointed once to die and THEN the judgment." When one dies, he or she will go immediately to one of either place.

How can one die "in God's grace" as the Catholics teach and STILL have sins that Jesus' blood hasn't covered? If Jesus isn't powerful enough to cover your "venial" sins in this life, then he isn't powerful at all and the whole Bible is a lie.

Purgatory is a damnable lie.

Nope! Jesus’ sacrifice is super-sufficient to save all. The fact that not all are saved is based on the fact that God also created us with free will. So salvation is there as an undeserved gift freely offered us by God through Jesus’ sacrificial death, but people are free to accept or reject it.

Purgatory does not deny that; it merely affirms that due to the effects of our sins, there is a purgation or purification process necessary before we can come into the presence of God.

Matthew 12:32 mentions the forgiveness of sin in this life but also in the next life. In 1 Corinthians 3:13 -15 Paul speaks of being saved by fire and 2 Maccabees 12:46 (not part of Protestant versions or placed in an appendix to the Bible) encourages us to pray for the dead that they be released from their sins. This implies that there is a purification process necessary for most people since “nothing defiled can enter Heaven” Revelation 21:27. But none of these verses can be taken as denying the sufficiency of Jesus’ sacrifice; rather they demonstrate that many people by their personal failures in some measure reject what is offered as a free gift,

 

[GodisgraciousR325]

Nope! Jesus’ sacrifice is super-sufficient to save all. The fact that not all are saved is based on the fact that God also created us with free will. So salvation is there as an undeserved gift freely offered us by God through Jesus’ sacrificial death, but people are free to accept or reject it.

Purgatory does not deny that; it merely affirms that due to the effects of our sins, there is a purgation or purification process necessary before we can come into the presence of God.

Matthew 12:32 mentions the forgiveness of sin in this life but also in the next life. In 1 Corinthians 3:13 -15 Paul speaks of being saved by fire and 2 Maccabees 12:46 (not part of Protestant versions or placed in an appendix to the Bible) encourages us to pray for the dead that they be released from their sins. This implies that there is a purification process necessary for most people since “nothing defiled can enter Heaven” Revelation 21:27. But none of these verses can be taken as denying the sufficiency of Jesus’ sacrifice; rather they demonstrate that many people by their personal failures in some measure reject what is offered as a free gift,

Dear reader,

Thanks for replying,

First of all, the 'world to come' is referring to the mil kingdom when Jesus come back. That unforgivable sin only when Jesus is phsyically here and then someone do it.

Second, the fire Paul talk about its our actions, it is not about purgatory. Its talking whether we did something lasting for God's kingdom I believe.

2 Mac is out of the question, its uncanon.

Yes, nothing defiled can be entered, they had to have a scariface like in the Old Test.

Jesus paid it out, broke the partiton between us and we can go into the most holy place.

We are saved when born again, eternally forgiven, we sin in flesh yes but we are sinless in the soul.

 

[Scarlett O.]

Nope! Jesus’ sacrifice is super-sufficient to save all. The fact that not all are saved is based on the fact that God also created us with free will. So salvation is there as an undeserved gift freely offered us by God through Jesus’ sacrificial death, but people are free to accept or reject it.

Purgatory does not deny that; it merely affirms that due to the effects of our sins, there is a purgation or purification process necessary before we can come into the presence of God.

Matthew 12:32 mentions the forgiveness of sin in this life but also in the next life. In 1 Corinthians 3:13 -15 Paul speaks of being saved by fire and 2 Maccabees 12:46 (not part of Protestant versions or placed in an appendix to the Bible) encourages us to pray for the dead that they be released from their sins. This implies that there is a purification process necessary for most people since “nothing defiled can enter Heaven” Revelation 21:27. But none of these verses can be taken as denying the sufficiency of Jesus’ sacrifice; rather they demonstrate that many people by their personal failures in some measure reject what is offered as a free gift,

So for me to be with Christ - it takes his suffering on the Cross and MY SUFFERING in purgatory??

How can you not see that this denies full payment of Christ for our sins? You are saying that Christ is not enough.

Once Christ has paid for our sins, there is no cosmic "restitution" required. There is NO amount of suffering in the afterlife that I could endure that would pay for anything.

 

[GodisgraciousR325]

So for me to be with Christ - it takes his suffering on the Cross and MY SUFFERING in purgatory??

How can you not see that this denies full payment of Christ for our sins? You are saying that Christ is not enough.

Once Christ has paid for our sins, there is no cosmic "restitution" required. There is NO amount of suffering in the afterlife that I could endure that would pay for anything.

Exactly, amen amen. Alleuia, where is thy sting O grave!!!

 

[Cathode]

So for me to be with Christ - it takes his suffering on the Cross and MY SUFFERING in purgatory??

How can you not see that this denies full payment of Christ for our sins? You are saying that Christ is not enough.

Once Christ has paid for our sins, there is no cosmic "restitution" required. There is NO amount of suffering in the afterlife that I could endure that would pay for anything.

“Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the Church.”

Remember Scarlett, there is another Cross that we must bear as imitators of Christ.
Jesus sufferings are restitution to The Father to open the door of Salvation.

Our sufferings are restitution to each other for the sake of the Church.

Those who try to escape their cross in this life, face an even greater cross in the next.

Suffering is our participation, not neglected for easier lives, but by Love we suffer for others.

Purgatory is making up for what is lacking in our love for one another. Purgatory perfects us in Love.

 

[GodisgraciousR325]

Dear Cathode, according to the context this is about Paul going through persecutions and other hardships to preach the gospel.

This still have irrelvance to the other life and purgatory.


If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

 

[GodisgraciousR325]

“Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the Church.”

Remember Scarlett, there is another Cross that we must bear as imitators of Christ.
Jesus sufferings are restitution to The Father to open the door of Salvation.

Our sufferings are restitution to each other for the sake of the Church.

Those who try to escape their cross in this life, face an even greater cross in the next.

Suffering is our participation, not neglected for easier lives, but by Love we suffer for others.

Purgatory is making up for what is lacking in our love for one another. Purgatory perfects us in Love.

Charity is perfect love, second kinda of making works a must, we are saved by faith not works.

There is no other cross in the other life, its either paradise or everlasting torment.

We are sinless to him when born again, Jesus already took on himself our sins.

Do not twist scripture.

 

[Cathode]

Charity is perfect love, second kinda of making works a must, we are saved by faith not works.

There is no other cross in the other life, its either paradise or everlasting torment.

We are sinless to him when born again, Jesus already took on himself our sins.

Do not twist scripture.

I don’t twist the scripture, I hold to the ancient Apostolic interpretation of Scripture.

 

[JesusFan]

Those in purgatory are saved by Christ, Jesus paid for their forgiveness. They are forgiven.

But not the restitution they owe.

If you punch a blokes teeth out, and he forgives you and drops the charges, you still have to pay for his $25,000 dental care.

Do you understand? We see the same principle played out everywhere even in this life.

“It is appointed once to die and THEN the judgment.”

Yes. It doesn’t say what you are trying make it say here.

Judgement decides who is saved or damned. Those in purgatory are saved, but only as through fire.

It denies the effect of the shed blood of Christ, as those now found in Christ have NOTHING left over to atone for after death

 

[Walter]

All people want to avoid the unquenchable fire – hell – but Christians will all be “salted with fire” which is good and restores flavor – purgatory. St. Paul also speaks of our works’ quality being tested with fire and that we can be saved from destruction, but only by first getting through the fire. (1 Corinthians 3:13-15) While this passage is often used to argue against the existence of purgatory saying that it only refers to our works as passing through this fire, Catholic teaching holds that our works are reflections of our faith, attached to our faith, and expressions of our very being. James 2:20-24 substantiates the connection between faith and works by using the example of Abraham’s faithful obedience in action as an expression of his faith in God

It denies the effect of the shed blood of Christ, as those now found in Christ have NOTHING left over to atone for after death

It isn't denying the effect of the shed blood of Christ but is a purification. It isn't whether or not the blood is applied. A person is either saved when they die or they are not. Purgatory is NOT a second chance for salvation as I was told when I was a Baptist.

 

[Godisgracious1031]

The everyone is referring to those who go to hell, not those who don't.

I still don't understand the use of "purgatory" if Jesus blood cleanseth us and we are eternally saved for ever more. We took on his righteousness and we have no more blemish.

Jesus paid it all....