atpollard
Well-Known Member
I still have no idea what point you were attempting to make ...
All I see is two conflated metaphors.
All I see is two conflated metaphors.
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- Thread starter loDebar
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Is the natural man unable to understand the gospel?
Or does Satan need to blind the natural man so they can't understand the gospel?
Or is it both?
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atpollard
Well-Known Member
Yes. (1 Cor 2:14)
I don't know if Satan NEEDS to blind the natural man, but Satan does "blind" unsaved men. (2 Cor 4:4) (Mark 4:15).
I don't know. The mechanical details of God, Satan and Salvation are above my pay grade.
(None of this seems relevant, but I am tired of chasing this bunny trail. If you have something to say, quit chewing on it and just spit it out.)
The natural man is not the same as spiritually dead. The spiritually dead can be made alive the natural man cannot
I've already said it a couple of times. To review:
1 Cor. 2:14 is addressing the natural man's inability to grasp weightier things of the spirit. It's not talking about an inability to understand the Gospel. Look at the context.
However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature...
I Corinthians 2:6
But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
I Corinthians 2:10
Secondly, the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation (Rom 1:16), and the natural man, under the influence of the Holy Spirit, can understand it.
Thirdly, if the natural man cannot understand the Gospel then it makes no sense that Satan would need to blind people's eyes to it. According to the Calvinist they're not going to get it no matter what, because they are spiritually dead.
But if the natural man can understand the Gospel then that verse about blinding them to the Gospel makes perfect sense.
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The term salvation is a broad term encompassing every aspect of Redemption: justification, sanctification and glorification. Regeneration specifically refers to one's quickening: his second birth. He that is born of God is saved. His hearing of faith and repentance are fruits thereof.
Just like there is a life in the womb before anyone even knows.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
I looked at the context. What about ...
[1Cor 1:18-25 NASB]
18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, "I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE." 20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not [come to] know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, "I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE." 20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not [come to] know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
... Is this also not talking about an inability to understand the Gospel?
- the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing
- Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom
- but we preach Christ crucified
- to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness
Where could Calvinists have gotten such stupid ideas?
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Technically, they are spiritually dead according to God as stated in Ephesians 2 (irrespective of what Calvinists believe).
No. The natural man may regard the Gospel as foolishness, but that doesn't mean they can't grasp it. They just don't believe what they hear.
Look at verse 21:
21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. [NKJV]
21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. [NIV]
Where could Calvinists have gotten such stupid ideas?
Westminster Confession of Faith
London Confession of Faith 1689
Yep, spiritually dead people that the Gospel can quicken unto salvation. And if the Gospel is starting to work, Satan may blind them (2 Cor. 4:4)
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Where does scripture teach that men can grasp the Gospel but just don't believe what they hear?
Please break it down for me.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
[John 10:28-29 NIV] 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.
Jesus says otherwise.
Acts 26:25-29
These verses cannot be the natural man because they cannot discern spiritual. Good of bad
Look at the defination of humanism
The natural man can understand, but he can't receive them. The truth and wisdom of them escape him. He knows exactly what is meant when he's told he's a sinner. The Epicureans knew what Paul meant when he spoke of the Resurrection. They just couldn't believe.I looked at the context. What about ...
[1Cor 1:18-25 NASB]
18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, "I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE." 20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not [come to] know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
... Is this also not talking about an inability to understand the Gospel?
but to those who are THE CALLED, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
- the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing
- Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom
- but we preach Christ crucified
- to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness
Where could Calvinists have gotten such stupid ideas?
It occurs according to God's will, not man's. There is nothing that you will do that will trigger regeneration. One either has life or not.
But our message is to repent and be baptized, and thou shalt be saved. And were we in the Sudan or Iran today, or in Jerusalem at the time of Paul, there is little chance that one would any worldly advantage to being baptized. They are and were laying it all on the line.
The offer is made to all, the Holy Spirit works in many at the same time. To see the need and the only solution
Realization of our need is our beginning to salvation
That's right, if we are like the particulars claim, that is dead like Lazerus, then why would we, having a nature that leaves us dead like Lazerus, need to be blinded by the God of this world?
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Well said, sir.
Satan does to the lost:
" But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." ( 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 )
God did it to the Jews:
" But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 that the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them." ( John 12:37-40 )
" What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (according as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear
unto this day. 9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway" ( Romans 11:7-10 )
...and the Jews did it to themselves:
" Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 for this people’s heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." ( Matthew 13:13-15, cross referenced with Acts 28:26-27 )
Why was this done to the Jews as a nation?
" that seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them." ( Mark 4:12 )
" And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand." ( Luke 8:9 )
Why is this done to the Jews and Gentiles as a whole?
" but we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 but unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God." ( 1 Corinthians 1:23-24 )
Because God wants it that way.
To His elect, both Jews and Gentiles, it is the power of God and the wisdom of God...to anyone else, it is either a stumblingblock, or foolishness depending upon which you are...lost Jew or lost Gentile.
Again, for those that ARE saved ( not "are being saved" as some other translations render it ), it is the power of God:
" For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 )
Do you believe that the preaching of Christ crucified is foolishness?
Then you're lost.
Do you believe that it is the power of God?
Then you're saved.
Praise Him for His unspeakable GIFT.
May God bless you all.
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