Quick-and-Dirty Calvinism

[BobRyan]

I appreciate Hardsheller's change in tactics (shell gaming).

IN his earlier approach he denied that Rev 14:10 allows the SAINTS to be In THE PRESENCE of the LAMB since the wicked are TORMENTED in the PRESENCE of the LAMB and that would mean that the saints SEE their precious children tormented. And "of course" Hardsheller "confessed" that a PARENT SEEING that would be "in shock"!!

(That was Hardsheller's inner arminian confessing to truth).

But NOW Hardsheller claims that the unchanging "God of LOVE" who WEEPS over the lost is NOT WHO we will BE LIKE in heaven -- IN FACT HE will teach us to HATE our precious little child as we watch them burn in hell!!

What an amazing reach in his "Shell gaming" for Calvinism approach!!

Too bad 1Cor 13 denies his entire POV!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[johnp.]

Hello Bob.

(That was Hardsheller's inner arminian confessing to truth).

You have spotted a truth about this inner Arminian being in everyman but it is not as you suppose. The Arminian in a man is actually called the fallen nature in scripture and it is that which is dying in the chosen. :cooler:
I believe it shows itself in Christians just as much as any other but it is dying, it has less and less influence as one grows. It is known as fighting the good fight! We are prone to keep forgetting that Christ died for our sins, all of our sins.

john.

 

[rc]

All men are born Arminians,
But God gives us grace and we become Calvinists.

Spurgeon.

 

[BobRyan]

I think that is the best way for a Calvinist to think of this inner working of the Holy Spirit while still clinging on to Calvinism.

In the mean time - Hardsheller and JP and RC have CONFIRMED the point of the CFS which is that a true Calvinist scenario NEEDS to insist on cold heartless disconcern for the lost EVEN if that lost person is one's own precious little girl AS THEY WATCH THEM tormented in hell!

The CFS "relies" on the fact that the inner arminian in every Calvinist will immediately REJECT their own doctrines and cry out "The CFS IS WRONG IN EVERY DETAIL!!" -- because its DETAILS show the NEED for Calvinism to be cold heartless and disconcerned EVEN over the torment and suffering of one's own NON-ELECT loved ones!!

Certainly we are satisfied to see that Calvinists "Can not help but confirm that scenario".

And I know that "eventually" given enough time - a Calvinist like RC or JP will come along EXAULTING this finer point of the CFS -- the "HATE" of God and the NEED to "So HATE" ones own loved ones rather than conform to the 1Cor 13 teaching AND rather than being LIKE the God who "Weeps" and who "HAS ALL HIS COMPASSIONS" stirred up over the lost.

These are innevitable posts - SHOWING the force of truth behind the CFS claims that Calvinism NEEDS (and will not tolerate anything other than) a cold heartless disconcern for the finally lost!!

(After all - it is all about ME ME ME and the unmerritted favor I GET not about the torment I SEE in some loved one God HATES!)

In Christ,

Bob

 

[johnp.]

"Weeps" = failure

love never fails

john.

 

[OCC]

John 11:34-36 (New International Version)...in this passage it says "Jesus WEPT" (emphasis mine)

Is Jesus a failure???

 

[OCC]

Originally posted by Hardsheller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by King James:
True Bob. Thanks. I just get tired of being called a heretic for believing that God loves people. Silly me...who do I think I am eh?

KJ, None of us ever claimed that God didn't love people.

I just ask you to show me in scripture where Parents in Heaven mourn their lost children in the presence of Jesus.

IT AIN'T THERE! </font>[/QUOTE]Hardsheller...it was said right on page 11 that God hates people. As for the parents in heaven...I would believe we would mourn for our lost children. Not to do so would be heartless and almost as much of a tragedy as the child rejecting the freely offered salvation through Christ by their own free will. Sad.

Also, can you show me where it says in the Bible that parents will NOT mourn their lost children?

 

[johnp.]

Hello KJ. I thought you were not talking to me.

Is Jesus a failure???

Jesus was not crying over failure there at the tomb of Lazarus was He?

Also, can you show me where it says in the Bible that parents will NOT mourn their lost children?

1 Sam 3:18 So Samuel told him everything, hiding nothing from him. Then Eli said, "He is the LORD; let him do what is good in his eyes."

No tears there man. He was told that his sons were to be sent to Hell.

john.

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by King James:
Hardsheller...it was said right on page 11 that God hates people.

God hates some according to Psalm 11:5.

As for the parents in heaven...I would believe we would mourn for our lost children.

You may certainly believe that all you want to, but can you produce a verse of scripture that says so?

Not to do so would be heartless and almost as much of a tragedy as the child rejecting the freely offered salvation through Christ by their own free will. Sad.

Two points. First, maybe the people in heaven are not mourning because they have bowed the knee to the will of God, and God has wiped away all tears? And, second, how can a lost child, or any other person, reject Christ by "their own free will" when they don't have a will that is free, but a will that is in bondage to the law of sin and death? Do you deny that the unsaved are in bondage to the law of sin and death?

Also, can you show me where it says in the Bible that parents will NOT mourn their lost children?

The onus of providing evidence is on you. You say they do, now it is up to you to prove it.

 

[Paul of Eugene]

We will mourn and God will wipe away our tears and then the time for mourning will be over.

That's just the way it is. Because when we understand things the way God understands them, then we will see that people in eternal condemnation are being truly loved and honored, in a sense, getting exactly what they asked for.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Paul of Eugene:
We will mourn and God will wipe away our tears and then the time for mourning will be over.

That's just the way it is. Because when we understand things the way God understands them, then we will see that people in eternal condemnation are being truly loved and honored, in a sense, getting exactly what they asked for.

Isn't there a better way to love and honor people than by leaving them to burn forever, even if that's what they want? I'm glad God didn't love me that way.

 

[OCC]

Johnp...first of all...I didn't care who said it. I didn't look at the name. I looked at your ridiculous statement and answered it. However, I don't recall saying I wasn't going to talk to you. I said you weren't worth it to discuss things with because you seem to find it rather difficult to do with any modicum of respect...as evidenced even now. Oh...and I forgive you for your haughtiness.

. "First, maybe the people in heaven are not mourning because they have bowed the knee to the will of God, and God has wiped away all tears?" tcassidy, the point is 'God has wiped their tears'. Why is that? Because they were MOURNING.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by whatever:
Isn't there a better way to love and honor people than by leaving them to burn forever, even if that's what they want? I'm glad God didn't love me that way. [/QB]

#1. So in the CFS - you "agree" that God does NOT love the one The SAVED parent knows has his "precious little girl" and relates to in the 1Cor13 way of "unnending love"? You agree GOD does not relate to her in that same way - correct?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by King James:
it was said right on page 11 that God hates people.

Indeed - it CONFIRMS that a "hearltess cold disconcern" for the lost is REQUIRED of the followers of Calvinism -- just as the CFS claims.

(Yet calvinists want to argue that this "detail" is wrong. Their inner arminian spells out truth).

As for the parents in heaven...I would believe we would mourn for our lost children. Not to do so would be heartless and almost as much of a tragedy as the child rejecting the freely offered salvation through Christ

Indeed to STOP loving your precious little girl when she is in most torment would be a denial of 1Cor13 showing us that for the saints it is LOVE that does NOT end!!

But this is a "required error" in Calvinism to be "more like" the god Calvinism describes.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

TC responds.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by King James:
Hardsheller...it was said right on page 11 that God hates people.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

God hates some according to Psalm 11:5.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As for the parents in heaven...I would believe we would mourn for our lost children.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You may certainly believe that all you want to, but can you produce a verse of scripture that says so?

Correction --

IT is the MANY that are lost according to Christ in Matt 7 -- was He wrong??

IT is LOVE THAT CONTINUES in heaven for the saints toward ALL whom they loved and had compassion for -- according to 1Cor 13 -- do you publically repudiate that scripture?

It is GOD HIMSELF who WEEPS for the lost and has compassion for them. Do you reject that part of the Bible??

Heaven is a place/time where the SAINTS become MORE LIKE God - NOT LESS like the UNCHANGING God. Do you deny this?!


Just the "easy part" here.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by whatever:
Isn't there a better way to love and honor people than by leaving them to burn forever, even if that's what they want? I'm glad God didn't love me that way.

#1. So in the CFS - you "agree" that God does NOT love the one The SAVED parent knows has his "precious little girl" and relates to in the 1Cor13 way of "unnending love"? You agree GOD does not relate to her in that same way - correct?

In Christ,

Bob [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Incorrect.

 

[BobRyan]

Whetever seems to want to claim God DOES love the lost and so also the parents CONTINUE to LOVE their precious children in eternity even though some may be lost - JUST as 1Cor 13 states!!

So then the "weeping" God within whom ALL HIS COMPASSIONS are stirred over the wicked lost -- is in fact "THE UNCHANGING GOD" of the Bible??


WONDERFUL!! Then God DOES continue to relate to her in an even MORE loving way than the parent!! And the PARENT does the same!!!

And 1Cor 13 is "still upheld" in your view???

How fantastic!!

That means that the Calvinist scenario is wrong when it claims God does not CARE for the finally lost and does not love them (according to you)!!

Are you sure you are not "shell gaming" for Calvinism here?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Whetever seems to want to claim God DOES ...

I didn't claim anything about what God does. I simply questioned the idea that loving and honoring someone means giving them whatever they want. I shouldn't be surprised that you don't understand the difference. Given your track record you will likely take this post as a denial of the trinity or the virgin birth. But that's your problem, not mine.

 

[Hardsheller]

Originally posted by King James:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hardsheller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by King James:
True Bob. Thanks. I just get tired of being called a heretic for believing that God loves people. Silly me...who do I think I am eh?

KJ, None of us ever claimed that God didn't love people.

I just ask you to show me in scripture where Parents in Heaven mourn their lost children in the presence of Jesus.

IT AIN'T THERE! </font>[/QUOTE]Hardsheller...it was said right on page 11 that God hates people. As for the parents in heaven...I would believe we would mourn for our lost children. Not to do so would be heartless and almost as much of a tragedy as the child rejecting the freely offered salvation through Christ by their own free will. Sad.

Also, can you show me where it says in the Bible that parents will NOT mourn their lost children? </font>[/QUOTE]1. There is no scriptural evidence that Christians in Heaven Mourn. This is a concocted and convoluted belief invented by Bob Ryan.

2. The Bible says there is joy in heaven among the angels over one sinner who repents. But it never says there is weeping in heaven over those sinners who don't.

3. Life on earth and life in Heaven is described and contrasted thusly by Jesus:

Joh 16:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, (on earth) but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful,(on earth) but your sorrow shall be turned into joy. (in heaven)
Joh 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.
Joh 16:22 And ye now therefore have sorrowon earth) but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you. (in heaven)

To believe and teach that Christian parents in the presence of Jesus Christ in Heaven will mourn their lost children is a denial of scripture evidence to the contrary.

 

[Hardsheller]

Bob Ryan wrote - IT is LOVE THAT CONTINUES in heaven for the saints toward ALL whom they loved and had compassion for -- according to 1Cor 13 -- do you publically repudiate that scripture?

No one repudiates 1 Cor 13. It is the Love chapter.

But it is not speaking of Love in Heaven but rather Love on this earth.

If you want to transfer this Love to heaven and get it right then you will need to focus on 1 Cor 13:6 - Love Rejoices in the Truth.

The Love of 1 Cor 13 will rejoice in Heaven - Not Mourn.