Quotes from Ellen White - You Decide

[Yeshua1]

Thank you for once again proving my point. It is fruitless to carry this conversation any further with you, until we can get to specifics. As, brother, you do this every time. Thank you for your time.

Did EW teach that aChristian ignoring the Sabbath for Sunday was taking mark of the Beast? Did she state that refusing to heed her doctrines as being from God meant peril to salvation?

 

[BobRyan]

There is much more to Mrs. White's vision than is recorded in Scripture, but I do not doubt that Mrs. White had the visions that she claimed to have witnessed. To do so is a fruitless endeavor (I also don't doubt that John Smith had visions of the angel Moroni). We can objectively question the actual experiences of others, but not that they had those experiences (which is subjective).

Clearly we cannot get inside someone's head to see what they saw --- but the Bible says we can judge between true and false prophets by testing the doctrine that they claim God is endorsing - since God can never make a mistake or be in error.

 

[Yeshua1]

It seems to be a matter of reading skills, or of reading carefully.

Sister White, spoke of the "greatest commandment in the decalogue" [ie Ten Commandments].

Jesus was speaking about the "greatest commandment in the Law" [ie the whole of the Torah, we know this because it was a "lawyer" who asked the question, and in how Jesus answered in vs 40], which is found in Deuteronomy 6:4,5; which is a summation of the entire Ten Commandments [Deuteronomy 5, rehersing Exodus 20], and see also Leviticus 19:17-18, for the second greatest.

He was answering them while under the old Covenant era still, correct?

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, she received it in vision. However, if I may add, that the entirety of it is actually in scripture [KJB] itself, here and there, Daniel, Ezekiel, Revelation, etc. God collated all of these things and presented them to her in a simplified manner, to be easily expressed, as many had not understood these things from the scriptures, because of lack of study, ignorance, prevailing ideologies, etc.

P.s. as a for instance, how did Paul end up knowing much about the Lord Jesus? Through direct vision [he was never physically at the Lord's Supper, etc] and through study of the OT.

Paul received direct revealtion from jesus, EW did Not!

 

[Yeshua1]

True - that level of detail could not be valid any other way. The claim she is making is that it was shown to her in vision. Details that God alone would know.

The theology and doctrines that she came up with clash with revealed inspired scripture though...

 

[JonShaff]

Yes, she received it in vision. However, if I may add, that the entirety of it is actually in scripture

The entirety of it is in Scripture??????? as in a detailed account found in the Original Languages/Manuscripts? And all of HER details found therein?????

 

[Yeshua1]

There is much more to Mrs. White's vision than is recorded in Scripture, but I do not doubt that Mrs. White had the visions that she claimed to have witnessed. To do so is a fruitless endeavor (I also don't doubt that John Smith had visions of the angel Moroni). We can objectively question the actual experiences of others, but not that they had those experiences (which is subjective).

They both got it from same source, the One that spoke to Adam and Eve.

 

[Yeshua1]

The entirety of it is in Scripture??????? as in a detailed account found in the Original Languages/Manuscripts?

To Sda, her writings are inspired....

 

[JonC]

I am all for affirming what she wrote - but if you look at that Story of Redemption text - there are minute details there that you do not find any place else.

I would think that this is the biggest obstacle SDA's have when discussing their beliefs with Christians of other denominations. It seems that the majority reject the idea of special revelation after the Apostolic age. If one believes this then it would be needless to even discuss SDA doctrine.

Do you know if SDA growth in terms of changing denominations comes more from groups who already accept progressive revelation (such as Pentecostal faiths)?

 

[Yeshua1]

I would think that this is the biggest obstacle SDA's have when discussing their beliefs with Christians of other denominations. It seems that the majority reject the idea of special revelation after the Apostolic age. If one believes this then it would be needless to even discuss SDA doctrine.

Do you know if SDA growth in terms of changing denominations comes more from groups who already accept progressive revelation (such as Pentecostal faiths)?

Most of the SDa theology came directly from EW, so if one refused to see her as a modern Apostle/prophet, then the Sda fails the biblical test!

 

[One Baptism]

There is much more to Mrs. White's vision than is recorded in Scripture...

Do you have a specific, you would like to consider?

 

[Yeshua1]

Do you have a specific, you would like to consider?

Anyhting that she would claim would be extra biblical though, correct?

 

[JonC]

Do you have a specific, you would like to consider?

Not really.

But to give you an example,"The great Creator assembled the heavenly host, that He might in the presence of all the angels confer special honor upon His Son. The Son was seated on the throne with the Father, and the heavenly throng of holy angels was gathered around them. The Father then made known that it was ordained by Himself that Christ, His Son, should be equal with Himself; so that wherever was the presence of His Son, it was as His own presence."

This assembly is not written in Scripture. Not only that, but it is contrary to what is written of Christ (that from the beginning Christ is God, through Whom and for Whom all things were made).

But it is not something I am interested in considering. I just wondered if the story was official SDA doctrine and where it originated. I appreciate you and @BobRyan taking the time to answer my question.

 

[One Baptism]

The entirety of it is in Scripture??????? as in a detailed account found in the Original Languages/Manuscripts? And all of HER details found therein?????

Not to derail the current OP, but a rhetorical set of Q's: What "original mss" [like the one of Jeremiahs/Baruch's that was cut up [and burned by the King], or the other that was thrown into the river, or the 'original' Table of Commandments that were shattered by Moses himself, etc]? Do you have these "originals" to compare to? Of course not.

As for language, God [even Jesus], spake to Paul in Hebrew [original language], Acts 26:14 KJB, and yet it is recorded in Koine Greek [translated language] by Luke. God is the inspiration, and Luke was inspired of the Holy Spirit [for it is men that inspiration works upon, 2 Peter 1:21 KJB]. Numerous other examples could be given., however, it [any language] is better to be translated, so that there is understanding in the common tongue [see 1 Corinthians 14:19; Acts, etc]

Yet to the actual point, God does not require anyone to know 'original' languages, but to trust in His preservation and translation of the words themselves, by His Holy Spirit. Psalms 12:6-7; Acts 2:6, etc.

Yes, every detail is in scripture [KJB], for God does not contradict His word, and has magnified His word above all His name, and the Holy Spirit, speaks that which He hears, and not of Himself, and leads us into all Truth, and the scripture [John 10:35 KJB] is Truth.

Some of the details in such vision, are more difficult [not impossible] for us to show in a simple manner by a single text or two of scripture [KJB], for some plainly revealed details given in a vision, require a great deal of cross references, and study to show the equality between the two, Law and Testimonies. For instance, a 'picture' [a vision] is worth how many words, as the common wise saying goes?

 

[JonShaff]

Not to derail the current OP, but a rhetorical set of Q's: What "original mss" [like the one of Jeremiahs/Baruch's that was cut up [and burned by the King, or the other that was thrown into the river, or the 'original' Table of Commandments that were shattered by Moses himself, etc? Do you have these "originals" to compare to? Of course not.

As for language, God [even Jesus], spake ot Paul in Hebrew [original language], Acts 26:14 KJB, and yet it is recorded in Koine Greek [translated language] by Luke. God is the inspiration, and Luke was inspired of the Holy Spirit [for it is men that inspiration works upon, 2 Peter 1:21 KJB]. Numerous other examples could be given., however, it [any language] is better to be translated, so that there is understanding in the common tongue [see 1 Corinthians 14:19; Acts, etc]

Yet to the actual point, God does not require anyone to know 'original' languages, but to trust in His preservation and translation of the words themselves, by His Holy Spirit. Psalms 12:6-7; Acts 2:6, etc.

Yes, every detail is in scripture [KJB], for God does not contradict His word, and has magnified His word above all His name, and the Holy Spirit, speaks that which He hears, and not of Himself, and leads us into all Truth, and the scripture [John 10:35 KJB] is Truth.

Some of the details in such vision, are more difficult [not impossible] for us to show in a simple manner by a single text or two of scripture [KJB], for some plainly revealed details given in a vision, require a great deal of cross references, and study to show the equality between the two, Law and Testimonies. For instance, a 'picture' [a vision] is worth how many words, as the common wise saying goes?

Man, it is difficult to dialog with you two.

Is every single Detail of Ellen White's Vision easily identifiable in a modern english translation of the Bible?

 

[One Baptism]

... But it is not something I am interested in considering....

As you will, but wisdom is justified of all her children.

It can be shown, but if you are not interested, it would be fruitless for me to attempt to do so. If your mind is made up already without a deep consideration from a brother who comes to you with such material, how is that following the Biblical principle of proving all things, despising not prophesyings, etc?

Proverbs 18:13 KJB - He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.

Proverbs 18:17 KJB - He that is first in his own cause seemeth just; but his neighbour cometh and searcheth him.​

Even God allowed satan to demonstrate his point. Satan was wrong. [I am not equating you or anyone here to satan, its just a comparison of past behaviour, dealings]

I do not mind dialoguing, and find it refreshing. And thank you also for the sincerity in questions and kindness of dialgoue, and for the time, brother.

 

[Yeshua1]

Not to derail the current OP, but a rhetorical set of Q's: What "original mss" [like the one of Jeremiahs/Baruch's that was cut up [and burned by the King, or the other that was thrown into the river, or the 'original' Table of Commandments that were shattered by Moses himself, etc? Do you have these "originals" to compare to? Of course not.

As for language, God [even Jesus], spake ot Paul in Hebrew [original language], Acts 26:14 KJB, and yet it is recorded in Koine Greek [translated language] by Luke. God is the inspiration, and Luke was inspired of the Holy Spirit [for it is men that inspiration works upon, 2 Peter 1:21 KJB]. Numerous other examples could be given., however, it [any language] is better to be translated, so that there is understanding in the common tongue [see 1 Corinthians 14:19; Acts, etc]

Yet to the actual point, God does not require anyone to know 'original' languages, but to trust in His preservation and translation of the words themselves, by His Holy Spirit. Psalms 12:6-7; Acts 2:6, etc.

Yes, every detail is in scripture [KJB], for God does not contradict His word, and has magnified His word above all His name, and the Holy Spirit, speaks that which He hears, and not of Himself, and leads us into all Truth, and the scripture [John 10:35 KJB] is Truth.

Some of the details in such vision, are more difficult [not impossible] for us to show in a simple manner by a single text or two of scripture [KJB], for some plainly revealed details given in a vision, require a great deal of cross references, and study to show the equality between the two, Law and Testimonies. For instance, a 'picture' [a vision] is worth how many words, as the common wise saying goes?

EW teachings and doctrines are in many ways possessed tot he Bible though...

 

[Yeshua1]

As you will, but wisdom is justified of all her children.

It can be shown, but if you are not interested, it would be fruitless for me to attempt to do so. If your mind is made up already without a deep consideration from a brother who comes to you with such material, how is that following the Biblical principle of proving all things, despising not prophesyings, etc?

Proverbs 18:13 KJB - He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.

Proverbs 18:17 KJB - He that is first in his own cause seemeth just; but his neighbour cometh and searcheth him.​

Even God allowed satan to demonstrate his point. Satan was wrong. [I am not equating you or anyone here to satan, its just ]

I do not mind dialoguing, and find it refreshing. And thnk you also for the sincerity in questions and kindness of dialgoue, and for the time, brother.

You CANNOT show ANY scripture that would support God giving extra biblical revelation to EW outside of the Scriptures!

 

[One Baptism]

Man, it is difficult to dialog with you two.

Is every single Detail of Ellen White's Vision easily identifiable in a modern english translation of the Bible?

Is it a language [as in terminology or definition therein] barrier?

All Easily, no. Some easily, some things I had to study a long time, prayerfully and with much care.

Think of the visions of Ezekiel or of Daniel or of John in a comparison. Some things easy, some things very laborious and drawing out of the God-given brain [reasoning] power, under guidance of the Holy Spirit. God would not be the Great Teacher, if He just gave us the answer all the time without getting us to think, by questions, comparisons, etc.

 

[JonShaff]

Is it a language [as in terminology or definition therein] barrier?

All Easily, no. Some easily, some things I had to study a long time, prayerfully and with much care.

Think of the visions of Ezekiel or of Daniel or of John in a comparison. Some things easy, some things very laborious and drawing out of the God-given brain [reasoning] power, under guidance of the Holy Spirit. God would not be the Great Teacher, if He just gave us the answer all the time without getting us to think, by questions, comparisons, etc.

So my follow-up question is: Can we find every detail of Ellen White's Vision in Scripture?