Rapture background

[37818]

LOL. Yes, I was taught the pre trib rapture view. My first study Bible being the Scofield Reference Bible.
I read, The Rapture Question by Walvoord. I decided from reading his book, my rapture view should be post trib. I bought his book to understand the pre trib view and understand what I was understanding in my Bible. Understand, Walvoord was teaching the pre trib view.

The "rapture" is taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. Verse 17, "shall be caught up." The Vulgate, "rapiemur."

So I have been post trib since 1969.

 

[Charlie24]

Always brings a good laugh:

I mess with them myself, being one of them.

The dispensationalists are not know for a sense of humor, especially the younger preachers/evangelists.

Having conversation with some of these is like being cross examined in a courtroom.

But they're not all that way.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

If you are baptised, you are part of the Church.

You Catholics are not baptized into Christs death & resurrection, rather you are exercised from original sin thus cleansed & processed. And that’s a decision of your parents because you don’t have a say in the procedure. At least the Presbyterians ( and other Pedo Reformed types) substitute it by identifying it as a ceremonial circumcision, but don’t call it a baptism cause it’s not.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I mess with them myself, being one of them.

The dispensationalists are not know for a sense of humor, especially the younger preachers/evangelists.

Having conversation with some of these is like being cross examined in a courtroom.

But they're not all that way.

LOL… yea, growing by leaps & bounds!

 

[Charlie24]

You Catholics are not baptized into Christs death & resurrection, rather you are exercised from original sin thus cleansed & processed. And that’s a decision of your parents because you don’t have a say in the procedure. At least the Presbyterians ( and other Pedo Reformed types) substitute it by identifying it as a ceremonial circumcision, but don’t call it a baptism cause it’s not.

I know my own kind very well.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I know my own kind very well.

Is that a works based religion?

 

[Charlie24]

LOL… yea, growing by leaps & bounds!

Wrong post. #25 was meant for here.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Is that a works based religion?

And is Clark Summit ( previously Baptist Bible School in Pennsylvania) one of yourse ?

 

[Charlie24]

And is Clark Summit ( previously Baptist Bible School in Pennsylvania) one of yourse ?

I don't keep up with this type info as you other guys. I'm totally in the dark with the schools, the religions, etc.

I spend all my time in the Scripture, as I said in an earlier post, living under a rock, lol.

 

[Charlie24]

I don't keep up with this type info as you other guys. I'm totally in the dark with the schools, the religions, etc.

I spend all my time in the Scripture, as I said in an earlier post, living under a rock, lol.

There are 3 Independent Fundamental Baptist Churches in the town where I live. I know all the pastors, deacons, members, etc. We all get together quite often for revivals and special events.

I'm just not into all that info with the schools, but if I need to know something I have dozens of friends with firsthand knowledge I can ask.

 

[canadyjd]

…

The rapture this gentleman was speaking of is not the main issue, that would be the separation of the Church and Israel that gets the covenant theologists on the edge of their seats.

That is a good point. It is also the biggest failure of dispensation theology.

In Ephesians, Paul tells us the two (Jew and Gentile) have been made into one new man by the cross of Christ and are bound together by God Holy Spirit.

To have a separate future for Jews, you must undo the work of the cross of Christ. It is impossible.

Peace to you

 

[ChristB4Us]

LOL. Yes, I was taught the pre trib rapture view. My first study Bible being the Scofield Reference Bible.
I read, The Rapture Question by Walvoord. I decided from reading his book, my rapture view should be post trib. I bought his book to understand the pre trib view and understand what I was understanding in my Bible. Understand, Walvoord was teaching the pre trib view.

The "rapture" is taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. Verse 17, "shall be caught up." The Vulgate, "rapiemur."

So I have been post trib since 1969.

Did you read in Revelation 19:1-10 how there is a Marriage Supper in Heaven when Heaven was closed after kicking Satan out of it?

Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 19:1-10 - King James Version

Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Hence the coming great tribulation.

And then Heaven opened again in Revelation 19:11-21 for when He comes back with the pre great tribulation raptured saints at the end of the great tribulation.

Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 19:11-21 - King James Version

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

After the world's armies are defeated and Satan is in the pit for a thousand years, then there is that resurrection of those left behind and were not resurrected at the pre great tribulation rapture event along with new believers that had died when that fiery calamity burned a third of the earth Revelation 8:7 with the fall of Babylon USA in Revelation 18th chapter and those killed by the beast waging war on the saints with the sword and those that died from hunger or thirst because they did not have the mark of the beast to buy & sell. Those are the saints described as going through that great tribulation in Revelation 20:1-6

Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 20 - King James Version

The reason why John cited first resurrection is explained in verse 5 and so this was not insinuating that was the rapture event because Jesus is already on earth after having defeated the world's armies & Satan is in the pit for a thousand years and so this "first resurrection" of these saints coming out of the great tribulation ARE NOT meeting the Lord in the air. The term
"first resurrection" means that this resurrection was to happen first before the rest of the dead are resurrected later on at the Great White Throne Judgment.

Revelation 20:1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Ask Jesus for wisdom & discernment to see the truth in His words.

To be continued....

 

[ChristB4Us]

LOL. Yes, I was taught the pre trib rapture view. My first study Bible being the Scofield Reference Bible.
I read, The Rapture Question by Walvoord. I decided from reading his book, my rapture view should be post trib. I bought his book to understand the pre trib view and understand what I was understanding in my Bible. Understand, Walvoord was teaching the pre trib view.

The "rapture" is taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. Verse 17, "shall be caught up." The Vulgate, "rapiemur."

So I have been post trib since 1969.

......continued from post # 32

The pre great tribulation rapture is first because the Bridegroom is coming for the abiding bride of Christ, leaving behind former believers and workers of iniquity unless they repent with His help before the Bridegroom comes. This is the terror of the Lord that every believer should regard for what they build on that foundation to avoid being a castaway in missing out on being partakers of the firstfruits of the resurrection with the Old Testament saints.

2 Corinthians 11:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 7 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

That is why He was warning the church at Thyatira in Revelation 2:18-25 to repent or else be cast into the bed of the coming great tribulation as this warning applies to tongues for private users as well as Catholics & Protestant churches that believe His Presence is in the bread and the wine at communion and thus committing idolatry per 1 Corinthians 10:14-23 at the link

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 10:14-23 - King James Version

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

That is why God is coming to judge His House first 1 Peter 4:17 as former believers & workers of iniquity will be "excommunicated" from the Marriage Supper in Heaven and even though they will die, their spirits will be with the Lord in heaven to wait for their resurrection after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in his House, the vessels of wood & earth but still in His House to testify to the power of God in salvation for all who believe in Jesus Christ, even in His name..

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

But which last day will believers find themselves resurrected in; as firstfruits or they that be Christ at His coming?

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

So there is an order in that resurrection of the saints for why Jesus is warning believers to be ready with His help or else.

 

[Cathode]

You Catholics are not baptized into Christs death & resurrection, rather you are exercised from original sin thus cleansed & processed.

Baptism is an exorcism, we come out from under the dominion of Satan that Adam and Eve fell into.
Baptism has always been seen as regeneration all the way to the Early Christians.

And that’s a decision of your parents because you don’t have a say in the procedure. At least the Presbyterians ( and other Pedo Reformed types) substitute it by identifying it as a ceremonial circumcision, but don’t call it a baptism cause it’s not.

Water Baptism is Baptism.

The Faith of the parents stands in for the infant, as children are subject to their parents below the age of reason. There is no set age for the reception of Grace.

It was the Faith of the Roman soldier that healed his child, the Faith of his friends that cured the paralytic and the Faith of Martha that raised Lazarus from the dead.

Confirmation is the mature reception of The Holy Spirit and enlivening of gifts in a powerful way.

 

[Charlie24]

That is a good point. It is also the biggest failure of dispensation theology.

In Ephesians, Paul tells us the two (Jew and Gentile) have been made into one new man by the cross of Christ and are bound together by God Holy Spirit.

To have a separate future for Jews, you must undo the work of the cross of Christ. It is impossible.

Peace to you

I think maybe you misunderstood me, I say maybe because I'm not really sure.

Paul told us the New Covenant in Christ's blood is made with Israel, and we Gentiles have been grafted in. They are the natural branches, we Gentiles are the inferior branches grafted in.

There is only one covenant for both Jew and Gentile, only one Saviour.

Paul then tells us that Israel has been partially blinded, until the fulness of the Gentiles is completed.

Then Paul makes an astounding statement. "And so ALL Israel shall be saved."

The fulness of the Gentiles is referring to the Church, which is made up almost entirely of Gentiles, in other words, God is calling in the Gentiles during this Church Age. When God has finished with the Church, then He turns to Israel, and as Paul said, "all of Israel will be saved.

God is working on bringing in both the Jews and the Gentiles, but He is doing it at different times and in a different way. But at the center of His bringing in is Jesus Christ.

Then Paul tells us that God has not repented of Israel's original calling. In other words, God called Israel to present to the world their Saviour, Jesus Christ, but they rejected Him and God turned to the Church to fulfill calling. But God has another way for Israel to fulfill that original calling.

It will take place during the 1000 year reign of Christ, when Israel will be what God intended for them from the beginning, the premier nation of the world, as in the days of David and Solomon reign.

There are numerous recordings of the Major prophets in Scripture explaining this.

I think this could be a great thread to start, picking up from right here and into Israel's future.

 

[37818]

@ChristB4Us,
Nowhere is there any word of God saying the rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is before the tribulation.

 

[Charlie24]

@ChristB4Us,
Nowhere is there any word of God saying the rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is before the tribulation.

That's true, there is no single verse that says that.

But there are verses that makes one wonder, strong verses that suggests a search for the truth.

Rev. 3:10

"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

It appears Christ is telling the Church that He will keep them from this temptation that shall come upon the whole world. This is a suggestion that the True Church will be taken out of the way at the time of the Great Tribulation.

1 Thes. 5:9

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"

When Paul is telling the Thes. Church the events of the Rapture/Resurrection, he leads to believe the same as Christ told the Church, they will escape the wrath of God on this earth.

This is part of what Dispensationalism is seeking to answer.

 

[37818]

@Charlie24,
Per 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 the rapture takes place after the resurrection and at Christ's appearing. Also per 1 John 3:2.

 

[Oseas3]

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last Day. 40 And this is the will of Him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last Day.

Greetings in Christ JESUS

John 11:20-21:->20 Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming,went and met him(similar Matthew 25:6): but Mary sat still in the house. 21 - Martha said unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.

John 11:23-24 ->23 Jesus said unto Martha: Thy brother shall rise again. 24- I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the LAST day. (the 7th and last Day or seventh and LAST millennium).
Around 2000 years ago, Paul Apostle warned the Church of Rome, saying unto them: Romans 13:11-12 ->12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. 11 And knowing the time that now it is high time to AWAKE out of sleep(Matthew 25:6): for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

The author of Hebrews preached, saying: Hebrews 1:1-3
1 GOD, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets 2 Hath in these last Days spoken unto us by His Son(spoken in these last TWO Days-now last 2000 years-), whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of His glory, and the EXPRESS IMAGE of the Person of GOD, and upholding all things by the Word of His Power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

It was still the fourth Day(around 4000 years after Adam-John 5:17), our Lord JESUS said: Matthew 25:6- At MIDNIGHT there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh(Now, passed around 2000 years, at the turn from the sixth to the 7th Day or 7th millennium), go ye out to meet Him->the bridegroom.

But wait.The Church needs to change of clothe. Revelation 19:7-9-> 8 And to the Church was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of GOD.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to our Lord JESUS: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and His wife hath made herself ready.

But wait. There is a problem: Revelation 12:3-4-> 3 And there appeared another wonder in HEAVEN(heaven?Ephesians 1:3-8, take a look); and behold a Great red Dragon(Great Dragon, brothers?Who is him?Ah Revelation 12:9 reveals who is him), having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his TAIL(Isaiah 9:15-16, terrible, very terrible)drew the third part of the stars of heaven(Ephesians 1:3-8), and did cast them to the earth:

Job 1:6- There was a Day (now, the Lord's Day, seventh and last Day) when the sons of GOD came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them (As Revelation 12:3-4 above combined with Ephesians 1:3-8).

But wait: Psalms 91:1-16 reveal that:
1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
2 I will say of the Lord, He is my refuge and my fortress: my GOD; in Him will I trust.
3 Surely He shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.
4 He shall cover thee with His feathers, and under His wings shalt thou trust(WINGS?Revelation 12:14, take a look): His Truth shall be thy shield and buckler.
5 Thou shalt not be afraid for the TERROR by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day;
6 Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday.
7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.
8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
9 Because thou hast made the Lord, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;
10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.
11 For He shall give His angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.
12 They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone. (stumbling block)
13 Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.
14 Because He hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.
15 He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.
16 With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.

Revelation 12:7-13
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our GOD( Revelation 11:15-18 ), and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our GOD day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth(carnal Israel) and of the sea(Gentile nations)! for the Devil is come down (from heaven-Revelation 12:3) unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Isaiah 59:19-21
19 ... When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord shall lift up a Standard against him.
20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord.
21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever.

May our Lord GOD bless us and keep us, and give us His protection
Amen

 

[37818]

Matthew 24:30, . . . they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. . . .

1 John 3:2, Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.