Rapture background

[John of Japan]

Dispensationalism is neither historical or scriptural. The point being made is that it was an innovated human idea that Scripture was manipulated to give it credibility.
So in 1820 a Scottish teenage girl has a dream about a rapture event, and Darby builds a theology around it and proof texts scripture to justify it.

Nope, not what happened. It's Darby's theology. There is no evidence of an historical theological connection whatsoever between Margaret Macdonald and Darby.

No one in all preceding Christianity was taught or preached this new theology or interpreted scripture to support this new theology.

Try Isaac Watts (essay attached).

So a Scottish teens dream was given status as Divine revelation and she became an oracle of God. Then Scripture was abused to give support to it.

Nope, not what happened. Have you read any actual scholarly histories of dispensationalism? I recommend Discovering Dispensationalism, ed. by Cory Marsh and James Fazio. Max S. Weremchuk wrote in his essay in this book, "Besides the fact that Darby considered her utterances to be demonic in origin, there is no real correspondence between them and what Darby later taught" (p. 237, fn).

"Justin Martyr (110-165) held a concept of differing programs of God" (Charles Ryrie, Dispensationalism, p. 72). I could give many more quotes.

Oppose dispensationalism if you must, but please represent it with historical clarity.

 

[ChristB4Us]

I think the point here is that like all innovations, you can see this theology has no long standing history going back to the Apostles.

Oh really? What do you think Peter was warning about in 2 Peter 3:3-15 which is for saved believers to be ready as found abiding in Him and thus enduring to the end to escape that fire coming on the earth or else be cut off per Luke 12:40-49?

Explain those 2 references since I see Peter & Jesus warning about how that pre great tribulation rapture event is when God is judging His House first if we do not lean on Jesus Christ daily to resists sin 1 Peter 4:1-19 & Hebrews 12:1-10

It is a tradition of men, and was a clear case of trying to force scripture to fit a theology.

In regards to this issue, that can be applied to either side and so pot calling kettle black.

Scripture cannot go against scripture and so how can we know when someone is trying to force scripture to fit their theology? With the Lord's help in proving all things when other scriptures is not aligning with how they misapply that scripture to mean and indeed more than enough scriptures is opposing it and thereby reproving it as a forcing scripture into their theology.

The ones that are in the wrong take the route of ignoring what the scriptures that is opposing them to mean because they have no answer.

Explain why Jesus is warning the church at Thyatira that if they do not repent, they will be cast into the bed of the coming great tribulation in Revelation 2:18-25?

That means if they do repent, they will not be cast into the bed of the coming great tribulation.

Then you have to explain why Jesus is exhorting the church at Philadelphia to hold fast and keep the word of His patience and they shall be kept from the hour of temptation that shall try all remaining on the earth in Revelation 3:7-11 and thereby keeping their crown.

That means if they do not hold fast and refuse to be patient, and allow someone to provoke them to violence, without repentance, they will lose their crown and be left behind.

But if you can offer an explanation for those two warnings in scriptures without going to commentaries and other sources for explaining this as I am sure others taught you this, without actually addressing the rewards and the consequences thereof, feel free to do so.

 

[ChristB4Us]

Here is another scriptural reference for proving the rapture is before the great tribulation.

Imagine the end of the great tribulation for believers living on the run as the beast is killing them by the sword and by hunger since they cannot buy nor sell without the mark of the beast;

.....you really think at that time, those invited, the saved believers, would be making excuses not to attend the Supper because they love their lives on earth, not to leave for when the Bridegroom comes?

Luke 14:15 And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God.

16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:

17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.

18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.

19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.

20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.

21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.

22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.

23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.

24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

And what about this short warning from Jesus that confirms the rapture as before the great tribulation.

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

So you all better be praying now to Jesus Christ at that throne of grace & trust Him to get you ready as found abiding in Him & His words as His disciples, as well as being willing to go in leaving behind all your cares and your belongings in this life.

You Catholics are saved and you do not need the RCC nor any sacraments to make you stand so leave that church now.

Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

You Protestants that believe Christ's Presence is in the bread and the wine thus committing idolatry according to 1 Corinthians 10:14-23, had better leave the Protestant churches with His help as well if you expect Him to receive you.

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

 

[Cathode]

Here is another scriptural reference for proving the rapture is before the great tribulation.

Imagine the end of the great tribulation for believers living on the run as the beast is killing them by the sword and by hunger since they cannot buy nor sell without the mark of the beast;

.....you really think at that time, those invited, the saved believers, would be making excuses not to attend the Supper because they love their lives on earth, not to leave for when the Bridegroom comes?

Luke 14:15 And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God.

16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:

17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.

18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.

19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.

20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.

21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.

22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.

23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.

24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

And what about this short warning from Jesus that confirms the rapture as before the great tribulation.

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

So you all better be praying now to Jesus Christ at that throne of grace & trust Him to get you ready as found abiding in Him & His words as His disciples, as well as being willing to go in leaving behind all your cares and your belongings in this life.

You Catholics are saved and you do not need the RCC nor any sacraments to make you stand so leave that church now.

Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

You Protestants that believe Christ's Presence is in the bread and the wine thus committing idolatry according to 1 Corinthians 10:14-23, had better leave the Protestant churches with His help as well if you expect Him to receive you.

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

You are deceived.

 

[ChristB4Us]

You are deceived.

Care to address the scriptures provided if I am not rightly dividing the word of truth?

Remember this comment from your post?

"It is a tradition of men, and was a clear case of trying to force scripture to fit a theology."

But you can only prove that by applying what that scripture is really about without opposing the other truths in scripture.

Of course, the Lord has to enable the ones that are opposing themselves to see the truth in His words.

 

[Cathode]

Care to address the scriptures provided if I am not rightly dividing the word of truth?

Remember this comment from your post?

"It is a tradition of men, and was a clear case of trying to force scripture to fit a theology."

But you can only prove that by applying what that scripture is really about without opposing the other truths in scripture.

Of course, the Lord has to enable the ones that are opposing themselves to see the truth in His words.

You aren’t appealing to scripture, you are appealing to your interpretation of scripture.

The light bulb moment hasn’t happened for you yet.

Everyone in Bible alonism says they appeal to scripture, yet are only appealing to their interpretation of scripture.

Trapped in the circular insanity of this idea, very few make it out, even when it is pointed out in the clearest terms. Each is blind to the problem, and each only sees his doctrines in scripture.

Few make it out.

 

[37818]

Three different issues.
Both the concepts of dispensations and rapture comes from the Latin.
1 Corinthians 9:17 and 1 Thessalonians 4:17.
And pre-trib rapture is not Biblical.

 

[Cathode]

In regards to this issue, that can be applied to either side and so pot calling kettle black.

No, my understanding of Scripture is not my opinion, nor is it any of the human interpretations of scripture founded by bible alone Protestantism. These are human traditions.
My understanding of Scripture is 2000 year old Apostolic understanding of Scripture.
I bypass my interpretation and every human interpretation to follow inspired Apostolic interpretation of Scripture handed down in Apostolic Tradition.

Scripture cannot go against scripture and so how can we know when someone is trying to force scripture to fit their theology? With the Lord's help in proving all things when other scriptures is not aligning with how they misapply that scripture to mean and indeed more than enough scriptures is opposing it and thereby reproving it as a forcing scripture into their theology.

This is a very very hard concept for a Scripture alone indoctrinated person to grasp. Many Extremely intelligent Bible alone protestants never grasp this their whole life, in fact it takes a Grace of wisdom to grasp this, which is not a matter of intelligence.

The only way to get the full truth out of the Written Word of God is to align it with the Spoken Word of God. Both are of the same force. The Spoken Word of God explains The Written Word of God.

The Holy Spirit operates through the inspired Spoken Word of God, Apostolic preaching spoken by mouth and heard through the ears.

23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. John 14

Jesus founded His Church by The Spoken Word of God, Protestantism rejected The Spoken Word of God and tried to recreate Christianity by textual criticism of the Written Word alone. Hence they divided and contradicted each other reading and interpreting from the same Bible, not understanding that The Holy Spirit operates through the Spoken Word of God. That’s why they stand in disagreement even on so called essentials, you aren’t guided in Truth by what you read with your eyes, you are guided in Truth by what hear with your ears.

“But the word of the Lord remains forever.” And that word is the Good News that was preached to you.” 1 Peter 1:25

How does The preached word of God remain forever?

Living memory of what was Spoken and heard through succession of approved believers down the ages. The Tradition of The Holy Spirit, Apostolic Tradition.

“So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.” 2 Thess 2:15

Protestantism didn’t stand firm to Spoken traditions of the Apostles, it rejected them and proceeded interpret its own human doctrines from scripture alone. Textual critics without the inspired understanding handed down through the tradition of the Holy Spirit.

The ones that are in the wrong take the route of ignoring what the scriptures that is opposing them to mean because they have no answer

I don’t expect you to grasp this. When Protestants think Word of God, they automatically think Bible, they don’t hold to the idea that the Spoken Word of abides forever even though the bible says so.

Catholics aren’t Bible alone, we are Word of God alone, we are pre Bible Christianity, we hold to both the Spoken and Written Word of God handed down from the Apostles as Paul says in 2 Thessalonians.

 

[ChristB4Us]

No, my understanding of Scripture is not my opinion, nor is it any of the human interpretations of scripture founded by bible alone Protestantism. These are human traditions.

What about the RCC's interpretations of scripture founded by non Sola Scriptura RCC in formatting Catholicism?

My understanding of Scripture is 2000 year old Apostolic understanding of Scripture.
I bypass my interpretation and every human interpretation to follow inspired Apostolic interpretation of Scripture handed down in Apostolic Tradition.

Meaning those apostles or church fathers as claimed by the RCC rather than the actual apostles & the sola scriptura alone.

I do not even see any such emphasis placed on the apostles as over riding scripture when Paul had to rebuke Peter to his face.

Galatians 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. 14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

So no apostle is to be head over the believer but the Word of God, the Lord Jesus Christ is the head over every believer.

1 Corinthians 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you. 3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

So what did the RCC do, but to create ordinances & traditions not created by the apostle of the N.T. to make the word of God to no effect while the Pope assumes the role as the head or Vicar thus making himself as an antichrist which means "instead of Christ" for how antichrist is to mean as applied in scriptures.

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Somewhere along the way, the church at Rome became polarized by Pope Clement to rule over all the churches for why he sent that epistle to the Corinthians to accuse them of jealousy for refusing to give a portion from their collection to his collectors from the church at Rome. Amazing how that Pope applied so many scriptures to brow beat them and make them feel guilty for refusing his share of the bounty that was to be collected from all the churches at Corinth. Covet much? He did.

This is a very very hard concept for a Scripture alone indoctrinated person to grasp. Many Extremely intelligent Bible alone protestants never grasp this their whole life, in fact it takes a Grace of wisdom to grasp this, which is not a matter of intelligence.

But what you posted next opposed what you just implied.

The only way to get the full truth out of the Written Word of God is to align it with the Spoken Word of God. Both are of the same force. The Spoken Word of God explains The Written Word of God.

The Holy Spirit operates through the inspired Spoken Word of God, Apostolic preaching spoken by mouth and heard through the ears.

23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. John 14

Jesus is the Word of God and those who love Him will keep His words & the words of his disciples and so you really have to wonder about the RCC's stance against sola scriptura especially when in early RCC history, they wanted believers to rely on them for giving them the scripture. For a while there, they did not allow the Bible to be in the hands of church members. Hundreds of years have passed where they had established unbiblical teachings and practices that with anti Sola Scriptura, they were able to continue to enslave the believers to a system of works necessary to obtain salvation through the RCC that the early apostles had never taught nor emphasized in any way from Peter or in regards to Peter.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

John 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

To be continued....God be willing....

 

[ChristB4Us]

Continued from post # 69

Jesus founded His Church by The Spoken Word of God, Protestantism rejected The Spoken Word of God and tried to recreate Christianity by textual criticism of the Written Word alone. Hence they divided and contradicted each other reading and interpreting from the same Bible, not understanding that The Holy Spirit operates through the Spoken Word of God. That’s why they stand in disagreement even on so called essentials, you aren’t guided in Truth by what you read with your eyes, you are guided in Truth by what hear with your ears.

Protestantism did no better as they failed to prune away all the works of Catholicism, seeing how they believed Christ's Presence is in the bread and the wine & now they preach they are receiving spiritual benefits from it and yet they and the Catholics that believes in this also, do NOT LOVE Jesus & His words nor the words of Hos disciples when Paul rebuked it as committing idolatry in 1 Corinthians 10:14-23.

Paul even rebuked the Catholics for turning communion into the Mass as if they are receiving that one time sacrifice for sins "again" to receive atonement for sins committed since last Mass in Hebrews 10:1-31 when the Holy Spirit being in us is why there is no more sacrifice for sins.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: ..........

“But the word of the Lord remains forever.” And that word is the Good News that was preached to you.” 1 Peter 1:25

How does The preached word of God remain forever?

Living memory of what was Spoken and heard through succession of approved believers down the ages. The Tradition of The Holy Spirit, Apostolic Tradition.

You had mentioned the Holy Spirit in every believer that will bring into remembrance all things Jesus taught us John 14:26 and then what the apostles had actually written in the N.T. which are not the traditions given by the RCC.

“So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.” 2 Thess 2:15

Protestantism didn’t stand firm to Spoken traditions of the Apostles, it rejected them and proceeded interpret its own human doctrines from scripture alone. Textual critics without the inspired understanding handed down through the tradition of the Holy Spirit.

The RCC applies anti Sola Scriptura because they know scriptures reproves what they teach as not what the apostles teaches, let alone what Jesus Christ teaches in proper context. They take what Jesus said to the unbelieving Pharisees out of context because He was referring to His crucifixion but He told them how to receive that bread of life, hence salvation, by believing in Him from the start as he tried to explain to them that He is not giving them manna from heaven to eat but pointing to himself as that bread of life that by coming to & believing in Him is how they are saved.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

Then He spoke plainly to His disciples that the flesh profit nothing, hence the eating profit nothing, but in regards to His ascension which was to occur after His crucifixion for how anyone that believes in Him will be saved.

John 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

It is the same message Jesus gave to Nicodemus on how & when we are to be saved for when we are born again of the Spirit.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?.............

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I don’t expect you to grasp this. When Protestants think Word of God, they automatically think Bible, they don’t hold to the idea that the Spoken Word of abides forever even though the bible says so.


Catholics aren’t Bible alone, we are Word of God alone, we are pre Bible Christianity, we hold to both the Spoken and Written Word of God handed down from the Apostles as Paul says in 2 Thessalonians.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God & the Head of every believer including Catholics BUT what Catholics fail to discern with Jesus Christ is how the RCC has deviated greatly from the Word of God & the actual traditions taught to us from the actual Apostles.

Look at how important the works of Catholicism is to every Catholic and asks yourself, were the apostles of the N.T. negligent since they did not teach such emphasis as the RCC does today or maybe like a lobster in a slowly boiling pot, the church at Rome were being subjected to false teachings and traditions not taught in the Bible for why they are anti Sola Scriptura because there are scriptures exposing Catholicism as works that deny Him as their Saviour in some form & fashion??

 

[Cathode]

Continued from post # 69



Protestantism did no better as they failed to prune away all the works of Catholicism, seeing how they believed Christ's Presence is in the bread and the wine & now they preach they are receiving spiritual benefits from it and yet they and the Catholics that believes in this also, do NOT LOVE Jesus & His words nor the words of Hos disciples when Paul rebuked it as committing idolatry in 1 Corinthians 10:14-23.

Paul even rebuked the Catholics for turning communion into the Mass as if they are receiving that one time sacrifice for sins "again" to receive atonement for sins committed since last Mass in

Hebrews 10:1-31 when the Holy Spirit being in us is why there is no more sacrifice for sins.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: ..........



You had mentioned the Holy Spirit in every believer that will bring into remembrance all things Jesus taught us John 14:26 and then what the apostles had actually written in the N.T. which are not the traditions given by the RCC.



The RCC applies anti Sola Scriptura because they know scriptures reproves what they teach as not what the apostles teaches, let alone what Jesus Christ teaches in proper context. They take what Jesus said to the unbelieving Pharisees out of context because He was referring to His crucifixion but He told them how to receive that bread of life, hence salvation, by believing in Him from the start as he tried to explain to them that He is not giving them manna from heaven to eat but pointing to himself as that bread of life that by coming to & believing in Him is how they are saved.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

Then He spoke plainly to His disciples that the flesh profit nothing, hence the eating profit nothing, but in regards to His ascension which was to occur after His crucifixion for how anyone that believes in Him will be saved.

John 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

It is the same message Jesus gave to Nicodemus on how & when we are to be saved for when we are born again of the Spirit.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?.............

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.



Jesus Christ is the Word of God & the Head of every believer including Catholics BUT what Catholics fail to discern with Jesus Christ is how the RCC has deviated greatly from the Word of God & the actual traditions taught to us from the actual Apostles.

Look at how important the works of Catholicism is to every Catholic and asks yourself, were the apostles of the N.T. negligent since they did not teach such emphasis as the RCC does today or maybe like a lobster in a slowly boiling pot, the church at Rome were being subjected to false teachings and traditions not taught in the Bible for why they are anti Sola Scriptura because there are scriptures exposing Catholicism as works that deny Him as their Saviour in some form & fashion??

Yours is a human founded tradition based on human interpretations of scripture which is false.

The Holy Spirit operates in Apostolic Tradition handed down the ages, and long before your sect was founded.

 

[timtofly]

My understanding of Scripture is 2000 year old Apostolic understanding of Scripture.
I bypass my interpretation and every human interpretation to follow inspired Apostolic interpretation of Scripture handed down in Apostolic Tradition.

Apostolic interpretation and theology is exactly the same thing as human interpretation and human tradition. Calling it apostolic does not change anything. Becoming apostate did happen. The more human and traditional a church gets, the more apostate that church slides.

Look at every well known higher education university across the world that was once lined with Scripture, and today is the furthest from Scripture, one can get.

Perhaps a church which does not change as fast as a place of learning thinks they remain the same year after year, even such an established church as the Vatican is not the same as it was even 700 years ago. The Vatican has changed with the world even as the world has changed. That is the cost of leaning heavily on human tradition.

Even Bible translations are not immune to changing human ideas. You point to interpretation that is different now than in the first century. Modern versions in the hundreds come out generation after generation based on human interpretation. And even the Catholic Bible is not immune to such changes.

You claim no one can read the Bible today, as it was once understood, because only one church has remained faithful. The problem is not one church can remain faithful especially if they claim they have. Claiming one church is still faithful, is the ultimate deception, and you still base your appeal on tradition of men. Tradition of man is just a fancy word for human interpretation.

Search your own history and see when each step of apostasy was inserted because of traditional human interpretation of alleged apostolic human interpretation and tradition. There has been changes along the way, which is inevitable because humans constantly change.

Some churches are not Protestant nor Catholic. The church was never supposed to be tied to one single central body of government. Even Revelation was addressed to 7 different local churches with their own local needs. The point is, the longer one holds to tradition, the more that church changes over time. For the same exact reason you deny human interpretation as being reliable.

It is not about human interpretation; apostolic or medieval, or modern. It is about the Holy Spirit guidance. If you are stuck on any human interpretation, you have already lost the power of God's Word, to human understanding.

Perhaps some things should be brought back into line with Scripture, which would be to you a different interpretation. Interpretation is the basis of putting Scripture into practice. Even you claim you are still following the apostles. But those in the RCC have been told that for almost 2,000 years, while human tradition has evolved and changed, and yes, even corrupted.

Besides, the apostles did not interpret Scripture. The apostles were the ones who wrote the NT. Passing things down from word of mouth is even more susceptible to change than the written word. Your human tradition did not come from apostolic interpretation. Why would the apostles go around saying something different than what they actually wrote? If you cannot trust God's Word or think people have corrupted the Bible too much, human tradition is an even worse offender of change than the Word of God.

 

[ChristB4Us]

Yours is a human founded tradition based on human interpretations of scripture which is false.

Pot calling kettle black, brother.

I have departed from the Presbyterian Church and although I was looking for the "fabled" independent fundamentalist Baptist church that did not come out of the RCC with the Protestant churches, but stemming from the N.T. early churches, I have found that it no longer exists, if it ever did. It has allowed certain creeds to lead them astray & so I cannot find that church.

The Holy Spirit operates in Apostolic Tradition handed down the ages, and long before your sect was founded.

But that is the very thing you refuse to acknowledge is that what the RCC teaches now, the apostles of the N.T. never did.

 

[Oseas3]

Yours is a human founded tradition based on human interpretations of scripture which is false.
The Holy Spirit operates in Apostolic Tradition handed down the ages, and long before your sect was founded.

Then according to your belief, the Baptist Church is a sect that was "founded based in human interpretations of Scriptures which is FALSE, that is in the way the Devil likes. It's what you meant then.

 

[Oseas3]

The Holy Spirit operates in Apostolic Tradition handed down the ages, and long before your sect was founded.

How could the Holy Spirit in Apostolic Tradition handed down the ages, operate by/through the Priests, Bishops, Popes of the Roman Catholic Church who practice pedophilia in their churches and convents of nuns?

 

[Oseas3]

Psalms 90:11- Who knoweth the power of thine wrath? even according to thy fear, so is thy wrath.

Revelation 11:15&18 ->15 The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD are become the Kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; ... 18 And the NATIONS were angry, and thy WRATH is come, ...

The Scriptures above remember something likeness the War between the house of Saul and the house of David;2Samuel 3:1-> Now there was long War between the house of Saul and the house of David: but David waxed stronger and stronger, and the house of Saul waxed weaker and weaker.

By analogy, the War is now between the Devil X GOD, between the spirit of the Devil, the former Cherub and former ruler of Eden X the Spirit of GOD our Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

The Lord shall utter His voice before His army: for His camp is very great: for He is strong that executeth His Word(understand?): for the Day of the Lord is great and very terrible(that is the seventh and last Day, or seventh and last millennium); and who can abide it?Joel 2:11.
Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain(Micah 4:1-7, Hallelujah!): let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the Day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand-Joel 2:1; (yeah, the Lord's Day, the seventh and last Day, just arrived).

Joel 2:2-7 - the Day of our Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. -->Wake up, wake up you all.

2 A Day of darkness and of gloominess, a Day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.(Revelation 6:9-11, take a look)

3 A fire devoureth before them(the Word is GOD, GOD is a devouring fire); and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall ESCAPE them. (1Thessalonians 5:2-3, yeah, they shall not escape).

4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run. (Yeah, in LITERAL fulfillment of Revelation 19:14-21, take a look).

5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array. (Yeah, the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall ESCAPE-1Thes.5:2-3)

6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness. 7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks: (Literal fulfillment of Matthew 24: 21-25, take a look)

Our Lord JESUS said: -Matthew 28:18 & 20-> 18 All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 20 I am with you always, even unto the END of the world. Amen.

Psalms 90:12-17
12 So teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom.
13 Return, O Lord, how long? and let it repent thee concerning thy servants.
14 O satisfy us early with thy mercy; that we may rejoice and be glad all our days.
15 Make us glad according to the days wherein thou hast afflicted us, and the years wherein we have seen evil.
16 Let thy WORK APPEAR unto thy servants, and thy glory unto their children.
17 And let the beauty of the Lord our GOD be upon us: and establish thou the work of our hands upon us; yea, the work of our hands establish thou it.

AMEN

 

[Cathode]

Some churches are not Protestant nor Catholic. The church was never supposed to be tied to one single central body of government. Even Revelation was addressed to 7 different local churches with their own local needs. The point is, the longer one holds to tradition, the more that church changes over time. For the same exact reason you deny human interpretation as being reliable.

It is not about human interpretation; apostolic or medieval, or modern. It is about the Holy Spirit guidance. If you are stuck on any human interpretation, you have already lost the power of God's Word, to human understanding.

Jesus didn’t found His Church on the Bible, He founded it on Peter and the Apostles. He established Apostolic Government, He founded One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

It was protestants who founded their churches on their fallible opinions of Scripture, and they scattered into their thousands on their conflicting interpretations and doctrines of the same scriptures. Traditions of rebellious men.

JWs and SDAs all say they get their beliefs from scripture alone. It’s a cascade of denial falling further away from truth since Luther.

The Bible only comes down to us from the Catholic Church, Catholic interpretation of Scripture is the singular Apostolic interpretation of Scripture, the Truth.

 

[Oseas3]

Jesus didn’t found His Church on the Bible, He founded it on Peter and the Apostles. He established Apostolic Government, He founded One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

It was protestants who founded their churches on their fallible opinions of Scripture, and they scattered into their thousands on their conflicting interpretations and doctrines of the same scriptures. Traditions of rebellious men.

JWs and SDAs all say they get their beliefs from scripture alone. It’s a cascade of denial falling further away from truth since Luther.

The Bible only comes down to us from the Catholic Church, Catholic interpretation of Scripture is the singular Apostolic interpretation of Scripture, the Truth.

@Cathode, take a look,
By the Word of GOD, the Word is GOD from everlasting to everlasting, GOD Himself, self-executing, and He shows there is great difference between the Church of Rome founded by Apostle Paul, developed by the Holy Spirit, i.e. by the Spirit of GOD, and the subsequent/ posterior APOSTATE and CORRUPT Church of Rome that was developed by the spirit of Devil, through Ministers of Satan possessed by UNCLEAN SPIRITS LIKE FROGS, according to the 2Corinthians 11:13-15(57AD) and 1John 2:18-19(85AD) and Revelation 16:13-14(95AD), take a look.

@Cathod, your Catholic Church is part of the Devil's world as a whole, established in Europe(1), Africa(2), Asia(3), Oceania/Australia(4) in North America(5), Central America(6) and South America(7), and GOD revealed to JESUS(Revelation/ Apocalypse1:1), that in this current time the Great Prostitute would be a demonic religious MONSTER with 7 heads, derived or proceeding from the roots of Babylon, and Persia, and Greece and Rome (Revelation 13:2), and Satan would give her his power, his throne->Satan's throne<-, and great authority. This is what will happen after the next and last Pope is elected VERY SOON I BELIEVE.

Therefore, as we can clearly see, long before Satan developed his own Church, his body, the Roman Catholic Church, which later split in two (by allegory, the legs of Nebuchadnezzar's statue) GOD revealed this DEMONIC EVENT to JESUS, and JESUS to his people-Revelation 1:1, and now, even now, and from now on, OTHER EVENTS will happen that will result IN THE MARRIAGE OF THE DEVIL WITH THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH, i.e. the marriage of the Devil with the Great Whore, the Roman Catholic Church-Revelation 13:2, and the POPE will still sit on Satan's THRONE in JERUSALEM.

You are lost, @Cathode, with your belief in a religion ruled and guided by UNCLEAN SPIRITS LIKE FROGS, SPIRITS OF DEMONS WHICH MAKE EVEN SATANIC MIRACLES as is preached by the Catholic Church.
Furthermore, Eucharist made by the Roman Catholic Church is cult of unclean spirits of demons like frogs, a witchcraft, a sorcery, an idolater celebration of demons, and cult of demons.

Get out of there Cathode.

 

[timtofly]

Jesus didn’t found His Church on the Bible, He founded it on Peter and the Apostles. He established Apostolic Government, He founded One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

It was protestants who founded their churches on their fallible opinions of Scripture, and they scattered into their thousands on their conflicting interpretations and doctrines of the same scriptures. Traditions of rebellious men.

JWs and SDAs all say they get their beliefs from scripture alone. It’s a cascade of denial falling further away from truth since Luther.

The Bible only comes down to us from the Catholic Church, Catholic interpretation of Scripture is the singular Apostolic interpretation of Scripture, the Truth.

Here I thought Jesus was the foundation of the church, along with the power of the Holy Spirit.

I guess your human foundation works great for you.

 

[Cathode]

Here I thought Jesus was the foundation of the church, along with the power of the Holy Spirit.

I guess your human foundation works great for you.

It’s not human foundation like Luther, Calvin and Zwingli, all traditions of men.

It was Divine foundation by Christ on the Infallibly guided Apostles.

“ He who listens to you, listens to me “

When you listened to an Apostle, you are listening to Jesus, it wasn’t human tradition they preached and taught, it was Jesus by The Holy Spirit, in the Spoken Word of God.